Hypothetical: Post 2015 Falcon

[jpd80]

OK guys the hypothetical is that Ford Australia puts forward a viable business plan for another local RWD Falcon.
What does Ford Australia need to do with the current design to evolve to the next generation suitable for post 2015?

Let's have at it and don't hold back........engines, transmissions, fuel economy, body styles, equipment features.....

[Benjamin Smith]

diesel, wagon are a must none of this they will just buy the terry because most people won't when the commodore is avalible.

[FalconXV]

MAKE IT LIGHTER, better interior materials, Put the same passion into it that was put into the BA, because FG is floundering.
Titanium variant above G6ET, with 5.0, bi-xenons, keyless and moonroof.
Team up the inline 6 with 8 speed ZF before it dies, or before Holden brings one out.
Somehow make it suitable for global markets. LHD, Engines <2.0L in mainland europe, diesel, congestion charge friendly and easier to park. Also somehow make it fit into the One Ford strategy. A medium RWD sedan or 3-series size could be a good thing, also a better range of commercial variants like van.
Either that or they'll just give us what Ford USA gets, and I don't see how they could make FWD work in our market aswell as theirs.
I personally want to see an FG 3 door hatch. Same width, shorter wheelbase with a Mk1 Capri style quarter window.
Or a real flight of fantasy would be 2 of the new 1.0 ecoboost triples fused together to make a 2.0 twin turbo ecoboost alloy six, canted at a 45 degree angle. aww yih.

[gtfpv]

for me , i think the sound system has always let every falcon down , a nice branded stereo would be very marketable , and i guess maybe a 7 speed box, limited slip diff standard , and interior evolution . the exterior seems to be on track in my eyes .

[Ford_The_Win]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

for me , i think the sound system has always let every falcon down , a nice branded stereo would be very marketable , and i guess maybe a 7 speed box, limited slip diff standard , and interior evolution . the exterior seems to be on track in my eyes .

The latter ones perhaps but I reckon the E series had a great stock sound system, the Pioneer speakers are great and suprisingly good for a stock system.

I think Ford need to think more laterally and do something innovative, something that's gonna breath some new life into the name plate. A hatch has never been done before, might change people's perceptions of the big boat sedan. The Ecoboost already sounds like a great fuel miser but they really need to play that up.

[flappist]

The one thing that is plaguing Falcons from BA onward is cheap nasty interior components.

My BA is falling to pieces and repairing it is ridiculously expensive.
e.g. latest problem.
The plastic front pax door handle let go. The cheap plastic just failed.
To repair, buy a new complete inside door complete $800 (and there are 3 more that will do the same thing) OR go to the wreckers and find that they have none because they are going off like fire crackers.
The list of problems with my FPVs could fill a whole forum by itself.

I have had more problems with post 2000 falcons than all the other cars I have owned since 1976 added together.

I also own a number of Korean and Japanese cars that just keep on running and running.

Now this is not just a Ford thing, I have a number of friends who own Holdens and have the same issues.

Unfortunately it appears that Australian build cars are doing the opposite of Euro/Asian/Yank cars. They are getting cheaper and crappier and lasting less and less time.

I have an XY than has had less things fail than my BA.
My XF is a bit sad but it is worn out not crapped out.

So my vote for Falcon is to use the same sort of design technology that the Japanese/Euro/Koreans use so a Falcon is once again the sort of car you can buy new and drive for 10 or 20 years not something that keeping beyond the warranty period is a gamble.

[XD 351 Ute]

Originally Posted by flappist

so a Falcon is once again the sort of car you can buy new and drive for 10 or 20 years

This is why I'm still driving an ED and an XG.

Ed

[flappist]

Originally Posted by XD 351 Ute

This is why I'm still driving an ED and an XG.

Ed

Did you buy them new?

Most people seem to be keeping their cars for shorter and shorter periods.

[jpd80]

So as I read it the areas to improve are:
1) weight
2) Quality interior
3) better sound systems
4) top performance with class leading fuel economy,
5) body styling, less overhang higher waist line, more aggressive styling
6) provision for hybrid/regenerative braking

How do we win back the Aussie public to an affordable large car?
Do we accept that the market has permanently shifted away from Falcon
or does Ford change what the Falcon is to follow the market and regain sales?
What does our future Falcon look like, shorter than VE with smoother lines?
8-speed auto transmission with hybrid drive option?
Do we add diesels or keep going with I-4 Ecopboost?

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by jpd80

How do we win back the Aussie public to an affordable large car?

This is the most important thing I think. Ford and Holden, if they want the Commodore and Falcon to survive, need to give them something that makes them "better" then the cheaper mid sized cars.

And i'm not talking about a bigger engine.

[SteveJH]

Engines:
- 2.0L i4T
- 3.7L V6 (unless its cost effective to upgrade the i6 &i6T to an alloy block with DI)
- 3.5L V6T (as above)
- 5.0L V8/V8SC
- 3.0L V6TDI (Jaguar engine)

Interior:
- Use the ford global parts bins as much as possible to save costs while improving quality.

Drivetrain:
- Longditudinal RWD/AWD
- 6 Speed Manual/7-8 Speed Auto (DSG?)
- Increased use of aluminium in Panels and chassis
- Relocate stuff like the battery to the boot (as in VE) for improved weight distribution

Brakes, Wheels and Suspension:
- Optional Forged wheels for reduced weight on sports models
- All brakes can be optioned on all models

Overview:
- Rationalise as much as possible ford components to reduce development costs and get economies of scale.
- Reduce weight to increase fuel economy and handling etc
- Design the car for export and/or foreign production from the onset. US Production for the LHD market and Australian production for RHD market would improve the financial outlook.

[jpd80]

What about the use of a magnesium frame on an Aluminium body?
If Ford could shed 100 Kg, would you accept an Ecoboost I-4 as the base engine?
As well as Ecoboost V6 as the new XR6 and S/C V8 as the next new XR8?

[prydey]

Originally Posted by flappist

Unfortunately it appears that Australian build cars are doing the opposite of Euro/Asian/Yank cars. They are getting cheaper and crappier and lasting less and less time.

i guess it all comes back to the fact that building cars in australia is not cheap. the number of jap/euro cars now available is higher than it ever has been so the aussie car makers need to keep their costs down to remain competitive.

quality control may be an issue, but i think consistency of product is probably a bigger issue. some cars last for years, others break on the way home from the dealer. luckily all the fords i've had have been pretty good as far as build quality goes.


i think the next obvious step for the falcon body shape is to head in the direction of the global ford dna. FG2 should lead into FH (or whatever) which could then possibly lead into the 1st global top hat, or head in that direction anyway.

[jpd80]

What if I told you that Falcon/Territory platforms are quite profitable but need to expand sales
to improve return, would you accept that Ford needs to do more with them to extract sales?
Should Ford be looking at I-4 diesels in RWD Territory and Falcon for sales in other markets?
Should Ford develop an export plan based on corporate engines to Asia, India possibly Europe and LHD?

[aussie muscle]

FPV need to start building cars other than Falcon.

Originally Posted by prydey

i guess it all comes back to the fact that building cars in australia is not cheap.

i guess building cars in Germany is not cheap either

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by aussie muscle

FPV need to start building cars other than Falcon.

Well there is no point building a Focus or Fiesta when Team RS have already done the work and have done a fantastic job. I'd rather FPV just import the Fiesta and Focus ST and the Focus RS.

FPV could include the Mondeo into their catalog.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by aussie muscle

i guess building cars in Germany is not cheap either

not sure what you are getting at there. bmw's etc are not only made in germany. they also sell here for a lot more than a falcon does so its hardly relevant. people are also prepared to pay a premium for the badge. it doesn't matter how good a falcon is, it still has a ford badge on it which means it will never compete with a german marque.

personally i believe the tariffs should never have been lifted.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by AMGC63

Im sure Ford employees read these pages from time to time for some light entertainment..

ford may not but i do.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by aussie muscle

i guess building cars in Germany is not cheap either

I guess Australia is not as big a market as Germany is.

[Ford_The_Win]

Originally Posted by flappist

The one thing that is plaguing Falcons from BA onward is cheap nasty interior components.

One thing that really disappointed me about the new Terri at the Melbourne Motor Show a couple of months back was the crappy interior plastic. The fit in the Terri interior was really tight and good, but the beige plastic looked like soap, it was terrible. Hard, grainy, scratches easily, they need to find someone else to do their plastics. The door was also really tinny as well, not solid like on older Falcons and other Jap cars.

[jpd80]

Now, I didn't set out to imply that I know more than I do, it's just that
there's a lot of clues in published articles that can be taken either way but
the Aussie press chooses to be negative and dismissive.

- One Ford is meant to help regional areas with vehicles either on global platforms
or through being plugged into regional parts supply contracts. The biggest gains
in profitability happen at the supplier level, get costs right here and the
assembly line is of much less significance...

- This does not mean that Dearborn is ready to ram an oversized Mondeo
down our throats as a post 2015 Falcon replacement. Nor do they intend
denying FoA the right to do market research and pick the right product.

- If Dearborn really wanted to kill the Falcon they would treat it like the Crown Victoria,
visually unchanged for years and years with no technical updates and no funding.
The complete opposite of that is happening with the Falcon.

All I ask is that everyone please keep an open mind and not to accept everything that's typed as gospel,
the last few years have been perfect examples of how decisions can be made then either undone or changed.

The press love a scandal and it's obvious they have tried to draw out Ford's plans ahead if time without success
by continuing to paint a picture of negativity but nary a bad word for Commodore exports or 260/mth PPV sales....

[aston]

Increase Wheelbase - shorten front overhang
Similar dimensions to current car - maybe slightly smaller externally
RHD and LHD
Utilise Kinetic 2.0 Styling Direction - Styling submissions for all Ford Styling Houses
2.0 Ecoboost
2.5 Ecoboost V6 (replace I6 - manufactured in Geelong)
2.5 Ecoboost V6 LPI (manufactured in Geelong)
3.5 Ecoboost (XR6T) (manufactured in Geelong)
2.0 TDCI (Econetic)
2.2 TDCI (G4 TDCI)
3.0 TDCI (G6E TDCI and DR6)
5.0 DI Coyote or 4.0 Ecoboost Coyote (XR8)
4.4 TDCI (G8E TDCI and DR8)
5.0 SC Miami (FPV)
New Rear Multilink Rear Suspension
6 Speed Manual (XR, DR, FPV)
7 Speed Dual Clutch Transmission (G6, G6D, XR, DR, FPV)
8 Speed ZF Auto (G6E TDCI, G6ET, G8E and G8E TDCI)
4 Door Sedan
5 Door Wagon
5 Door Crossover (Territory)
EPAS
Park Assist
FordSync
Weight reduced by 50-100kg depending on model
Increase in Rolling Wheel Diameter

[FalconXV]

Financially speaking, what's the most realistic scenario?

[Polyal]

Ok I might get flamed for this a big but we have to keep in mind its a car built for a small market on a small budget, for me if the falcon does not merge with a GRWD platform then forget it. Why?

Because once you do you have access to all the good stuff people want above. Sounds system, while its not super quality the Sony ones in the mondeo/focuses would be good.

Once it merges then it becomes a global car and you can compare it 100% to other cars that get similar budgets, at the moment its fighting with one hand behind its back.

Talking about using alternative materials is good to drop weight, but if it comes at a considerable increase in RRP then no, not worth it IMO.

Other than that I think for the time being a 6 speed is heaps for a local Ford. yes I know we advance over time but again, if its at the expense of runnign costs then no I dont think its a wise move.

Diesel in the falcon is a must, I still cant believe they would go to the effort of putting it in the tez and not the Falcon.

Also bolder looks, Ive said it before but like how the 300C distances itself from the crowd. Because in theory the Mondeo does 90% of what the falcon does, and better, so making it to generic in the Ford world will kill it IMO.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Ok I might get flamed for this a big but we have to keep in mind its a car built for a small market on a small budget, for me if the falcon does not merge with a GRWD platform then forget it. Why?

Agreed. If FoA could get GRWD and build it here for the asia pacific market.

FoA have shown that they can make a world class vehicle on a decent (even if its small on a global budget). Being able to have the tech, quality, drive lines and reliability cost money. I would love to see a Falcon made on a real budget as its a damm good car now.

[SteveJH]

Actually, I know I was advocating a Diesel engine above, but this is in the Euro Six timeline (if its being exported) and it would depend on the cost of producing and maintaining a Euro Six Diesel engine, for example urea injection.

[jpd80]

As I see it, Ford Australia has two choices:
1)CD4 - Fusion-Mondeo-Taurus, thse three vehicles are being developed of next gen Fusion which will be built on
a 108" wheelbase which is a mere 25 mm longer than the current Fusion but 105mm shorter than the current Mondeo.
The change in wheelbase is necessary for reducing weight and allowing the development of a longer wheelbase
Taurus off the same platform. If Ford Australia was to go in this direction they would probably take Mondeo
and develop RHD Taurus for Australia and FAPA region. But is this an economically viable decision considering
the changes required to local suppliers?

2) continued development and evolution of RWD Falcon platform using more global engines and engineering
modules like electronic power steering, features like self parking and intelligent cruise control..
Can Ford Australia achieve almost everything a new Taurus could for a fraction of the development cost?

In the event that FoA decides to do another local Falcon, it can still import the next gen Mondeo
for far less than the cost of developing a mid sized car so any costs incurred by falcon development
would be confined to the large car sector, if global engines are used, the cost will be even less....

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Agreed. If FoA could get GRWD and build it here for the asia pacific market.

FoA have shown that they can make a world class vehicle on a decent (even if its small on a global budget). Being able to have the tech, quality, drive lines and reliability cost money. I would love to see a Falcon made on a real budget as its a damm good car now.

I dont think FoA even have to do the bulk of the work, just pinch whatever platform is made to reintroduce Lincoln (im repeating from another thread); but that brand is key for me.

Then we just do a few finishing touches (maybe local sheet metal and interior to a point) and done.

Will that mean a few job losses, probably, but better than nothing at all.

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by Polyal

I dont think FoA even have to do the bulk of the work, just pinch whatever platform is made to reintroduce Lincoln (im repeating from another thread); but that brand is key for me.

Probably not an option, any lincoln platform would probably be too expensive for use in a Falcon. Otherwise they could just use an updated DEW98 as used by Jaguar.

The problem is, that platform is all alloy, which increases costs significantly, thats why a base model XF costs about as much as a GT-P.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by SteveJH

Probably not an option, any lincoln platform would probably be too expensive for use in a Falcon. Otherwise they could just use an updated DEW98 as used by Jaguar.

The problem is, that platform is all alloy, which increases costs significantly, thats why a base model XF costs about as much as a GT-P.

Perhaps, or do greater numbers reduce the cost, and there is our weight saving without doing it on individual components. What would the cost of that platform be when financed over what, 4 times it currently does? Heaps more than that actually.

Regardless of material used, a GWRD car just makes sense, but Ive been called crazy among other colorful things before.