NSW consider fines for 4 kp/h over the limit

[Full Noise]

Easy to tell that the NSW government is broke.

I’ll just get my calculator out to check how many lives this will save.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/...er-speed-limit

Senior NSW police say the Roads and Traffic Authority is considering plans to reduce the amount of leeway given to speeding motorists to as low as 4 km/h.
The proposal, which would follow a similar take-no-prisoners approach by the Victorian government, has drawn criticism from senior highway patrol officers, who believe the margin for error is too small, The Sun-Herald says.
The reduced tolerances are part of a tougher stance on speeding adopted by the NSW government, which includes six mobile speed cameras appearing on Sydney streets from July 19.
Driving fines are expected to rise by $137 million in the next year, partially because of mobile speed cameras, the state budget reported.
The cameras, which can fine six drivers every second, will be set up in white Ford Territory vans operated by RTA-contracted company Redflex. Signs will inform drivers they have been "checked" after they pass the vans, which also shoot video.
One senior Sydney policeman told The Sun-Herald, on condition of anonymity, that a 4 km/h tolerance is so small that a new set of tyres or the width of a speedometer needle could land motorists on the wrong side of the law. He said some radars have an error margin of plus or minus 3 km/h, while most police allow a margin of 8 or 9 km/h at 60 km/h.
The RTA is responsible for the limit on fixed cameras, as well as those in the new mobile vans.
An RTA spokeswoman said: "The RTA does not discuss enforcement thresholds on road safety grounds." But she did not deny the hardline approach is being considered, the paper says.

[Jason[98.EL]]

it's still 1k better than what we get here

Originally Posted by artical

One senior Sydney policeman told The Sun-Herald, on condition of anonymity, that a 4 km/h tolerance is so small that a new set of tyres or the width of a speedometer needle could land motorists on the wrong side of the law. He said some radars have an error margin of plus or minus 3 km/h, while most police allow a margin of 8 or 9 km/h at 60 km/h.

that is just wrong if they are allowed to have the same tolerance we are then we should have at least 2 more on top of that as well


Jason

[motorcycles4eva]

here is another article which also suggests the macquarie bank is into it also..
what a fricken joke...on us actually...

i knew the ford territory's were too good... check out the *couple* pics.. not much advertising for the camera in use.. just a small crap on the door and a sign as you pass the camera..

http://www.news.com.au/national/new-...-1225890292548

[Bucknaked]

The only way they know how to dig themselves out of financial blackholes to hit us up for more money. They get us into debt, we have to bail them out. Time these political turkey's were held a little more accountable for their bad decisions.

[ELGT4me]

What has happened to my home state? My trip to Bathurst in 2006 was made less enjoyable by the amount of fixed speed cameras between Sydney & Bathurst. Now you head down the South Coast much of the same, the thriving metropolis of Berry has it's very own speed camera, between Kiama & Berry a speed camera, between Nowra & Ulladulla a speed camera. Good grief, how do you guys survive over there?

[dave289]

This sort of crap increases the road toll and accidents becuse people have to constsntly look at there speedo in stead of the road so basically have to be concerned about being finned rather than driving safely, a few kays over the limit is not speeding , I would call it drifting slighly over the limit, this just shows its nothing more than a money raising venture, another way to rip people off while they get paid $300,000 a year.

[ELGT4me]

Originally Posted by dave289

This sort of crap increases the road toll and accidents becuse people have to constsntly look at there speedo in stead of the road so basically have to be concerned about being finned rather than driving safely, a few kays over the limit is not speeding , I would call it drifting slighly over the limit, this just shows its nothing more than a money raising venture, another way to rip people off while they get paid $300,000 a year.

Good point, that's what I found myself doing, constantly fiddling with the cruise control, watching the speedo, generally not paying attention to what I should be doing. Years ago I got booked in a car, between Goulburn & Gunning @ 1.30 am, I was 5 klm over the limit in a 110 klmph zone. He was sitting @ the bottom of a hill with his lights turned off. I have no doubt he saved my life.

[Jim Goose]

Ummm... ADR anyone???
The state cannot over-ride Federal rules.
The law they propose can not be enforced because tollerences in speedos are not that good.

[Geeseman]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

Ummm... ADR anyone???
The state cannot over-ride Federal rules.
The law they propose can not be enforced because tollerences in speedos are not that good.

Apparently they are 10% under the law. So any stupid fines giving to give you a ticket for 4ks over the limit you can just cite this law and say that the car was doing 4ks over the limit because your law allows it to.

[flappist]

You have an election coming up.

Instead of whinging on an internet forum why not actually do something about it.

Contact your local member and each of your upper house members and let them know how you feel about this and how it will affect your vote.

They all want to be re-elected and will do ALMOST ANYTHING to ensure it (just look at the last few weeks in the federal sphere)

[Jase_Boss]

Originally Posted by flappist

You have an election coming up.

Instead of whinging on an internet forum why not actually do something about it.

Contact your local member and each of your upper house members and let them know how you feel about this and how it will affect your vote.

They all want to be re-elected and will do ALMOST ANYTHING to ensure it (just look at the last few weeks in the federal sphere)

Yes they will SAY (maybe do) anything to be re-elected, but what happens when they get IN is another thing,

The saddest thing in it is our state as a viable business is in financial doo doo (for reasons we all know) who ever wins will need to do some serious fund raising to get us out of the massive hole we are in, as a business the government make NO money, they can only get it from us...so all we have to do is look at what the other states are doing to their residents, tax increases, new levies, road safety campaigns, etc...we will have it all in some form in the not to distant future

sorry for bordering on political talk its a subject that really winds me up as a tax payer and business owner, if i run my business like they run our state/country i would have closed the doors 25 times by now.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by flappist

You have an election coming up.

Instead of whinging on an internet forum why not actually do something about it.

Contact your local member and each of your upper house members and let them know how you feel about this and how it will affect your vote.

They all want to be re-elected and will do ALMOST ANYTHING to ensure it (just look at the last few weeks in the federal sphere)

excactly right they will (like the clowns before them) be voted out from trying to introduce this crap.

crap; i mean the tenex type speed fine's (private) and less than accepted tolorance (variation)

[capri280]

they all go on about speed being the problem, well its not. Exsesive speed, yes that is, but 4ks over? get real.
the motorist is the easiest way to raise revenue without having to worry about the real problem, driver education/training or fixing the roads in the first place.
and untill they tackle the real problem we can just expect the fine process to keep costing us all more, why do you think that they put so many different speed signs on one road? makes it easier to catch unaware drivers $$$$$$$$$

[King Nothing]

Guys, there is an election coming up. Write to your local member, the roads minister and the shadow roads minister.

Roads minister: minister@borger.minister.nsw.gov.au
Shadow roads minister: oxley@parliament.nsw.gov.au

A copy of my letter is below. Feel free to copy/paste/reword, but keep it civil.

Dear Mr Borger

I am writing in regards to the story on the Sydney Morning Herald website
on the 11th of July 2010 regarding the NSW RTA considering lowering the
tolerance for speed limits to 4km/h.

Is the NSW RTA, or your office, aware of the Australian Design Rule
Vehicle Standard (Australian Design Rule 18/02 - Instrumentation) 2006
Legislative Instrument - F2006L02738? This regulation is applicable to all
vehicles manufactured up to June 2006, after which ADR 18/03 applies.

ADR 18/02 states the following in section 18.5.1.1.2.-

"[Speedometers] indicate the actual vehicle speed, for all speeds above 40
km/h, to an accuracy of ± 10 per cent."

How is it then, that the NSW RTA can expect a tolerance less than that the
vehicle was manufactured under? If a driver is travelling at an indicated
50 km/h, then under ADR 18/02 their vehicle may actually be travelling up
to 55 km/h and still meet requirements. Under the new tolerances reportedly
being considered by the NSW RTA and State Government, they would be
considered speeding and incur a penalty. Despite travelling at what they
understand is the speed limit.

Similarly, if a driver is doing what they believe is below the speed
limit, at an indicated 105 km/h in a 110 km/h zone, they may in fact be
travelling up to 115.5 km/hr and incur a penalty whilst the vehicle still
meets the ADR it was designed and manufactured under.

How then, is this reported proposal any more than a blatant cash grab from
NSW drivers, and how will it save lives? How can any penalties be
considered fair and reasonable when roadworthy cars will show displayed
speeds greater than the tolerance proposed?

I look forward to your reply

[oceanwave54]

NOTE TO EVERYONE, as 'King Nothing' said, write to the Roads Minister, try to change it though, we don't want carbon copies. If the Government cops thousands of emails on the same topic, it's bound to have some sway. Show a committment to the other side if it is not considered, this should be posted on every car forum. I AM CONSTANTLY AMAZED AT WHY NO ONE STANDS UP TOGETHER THESE DAYS. Hell, bring the city to a halt if they want to take things further by ignoring the road user.

I'm emailing now.

Originally Posted by King Nothing

Guys, there is an election coming up. Write to your local member, the roads minister and the shadow roads minister.

Roads minister: minister@borger.minister.nsw.gov.au
Shadow roads minister: oxley@parliament.nsw.gov.au

A copy of my letter is below. Feel free to copy/paste/reword, but keep it civil.

Dear Mr Borger

I am writing in regards to the story on the Sydney Morning Herald website
on the 11th of July 2010 regarding the NSW RTA considering lowering the
tolerance for speed limits to 4km/h.

.....................................

How then, is this reported proposal any more than a blatant cash grab from
NSW drivers, and how will it save lives? How can any penalties be
considered fair and reasonable when roadworthy cars will show displayed
speeds greater than the tolerance proposed?

I look forward to your reply

[zdcol71]

Originally Posted by King Nothing

Guys, there is an election coming up. Write to your local member, the roads minister and the shadow roads minister.

Roads minister: minister@borger.minister.nsw.gov.au
Shadow roads minister: oxley@parliament.nsw.gov.au

A copy of my letter is below. Feel free to copy/paste/reword, but keep it civil.

Dear Mr Borger

I am writing in regards to the story on the Sydney Morning Herald website
on the 11th of July 2010 regarding the NSW RTA considering lowering the
tolerance for speed limits to 4km/h.

Is the NSW RTA, or your office, aware of the Australian Design Rule
Vehicle Standard (Australian Design Rule 18/02 - Instrumentation) 2006
Legislative Instrument - F2006L02738? This regulation is applicable to all
vehicles manufactured up to June 2006, after which ADR 18/03 applies.

ADR 18/02 states the following in section 18.5.1.1.2.-

"[Speedometers] indicate the actual vehicle speed, for all speeds above 40
km/h, to an accuracy of ± 10 per cent."

How is it then, that the NSW RTA can expect a tolerance less than that the
vehicle was manufactured under? If a driver is travelling at an indicated
50 km/h, then under ADR 18/02 their vehicle may actually be travelling up
to 55 km/h and still meet requirements. Under the new tolerances reportedly
being considered by the NSW RTA and State Government, they would be
considered speeding and incur a penalty. Despite travelling at what they
understand is the speed limit.

Similarly, if a driver is doing what they believe is below the speed
limit, at an indicated 105 km/h in a 110 km/h zone, they may in fact be
travelling up to 115.5 km/hr and incur a penalty whilst the vehicle still
meets the ADR it was designed and manufactured under.

How then, is this reported proposal any more than a blatant cash grab from
NSW drivers, and how will it save lives? How can any penalties be
considered fair and reasonable when roadworthy cars will show displayed
speeds greater than the tolerance proposed?

I look forward to your reply

Here's my reply, and it is by way of a question to the mods.
1) How many members does this forum have
2)How many members does this directly affect
3)How many of these members find it so easy to scream "revenue raiser" when an issue affects them directly
4)How many members will cut/copy King Nothings response and send it to the appropriate address
5)Can we get an indication of how many members actually do something about the issue in a quantitive way
6)Can that number of members who have actually voiced an opinion, other than on this forum ,be quantified?
Big ask ,I know, and final question....
After the election , how many people will be asking the same questions when nothing has changed???
Here is a perfect opportunity to actually affect some change!!
Well done King Nothing.

[Jase_Boss]

What a joke...all those speed cameras and the low tolerance / zero tolerance in Victoria seams to have done a lot in reducing the road toll down their, it is higher this year again and the revenue is still rising.

Maybe our fine, ethical non self promoting members of government could spend some of the money's raised by this "safety campaign" could be used to repair our ailing road system and that might have a positive effect on ACTUAL ROAD SAFETY.

i'm sure this new measure here is going to help reduce our road toll.
As discussed above the distraction of constantly looking at your speedo will become an issue.

[Yellow_Festiva]

The 'tolerance' should be across the board. If I remember correctly, a car manufacturer can have a larger tolerance than the radar gun. If a cars speedo can be out by 10%, than there should be a tolerance of 10% for speed checks.

[King Nothing]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

The 'tolerance' should be across the board. If I remember correctly, a car manufacturer can have a larger tolerance than the radar gun. If a cars speedo can be out by 10%, than there should be a tolerance of 10% for speed checks.

Thats the case for all pre-July 2006 cars. ADR 18/03 section 5.3 states for all vehicles from July 2006;

The speed indicated shall not be less than the true speed of the vehicle. At the test speeds specified in paragraph 5.2.5. above, there shall be the following relationship between the speed displayed (V1 ) and the true speed (V2).

0 ≤ (V1 - V2) ≤ 0.1 V2 + 4 km/h

That means that your car cannot read slow, and can read fast.

ADR 18/03 is here http://rvcs-prodweb.dot.gov.au/files/ADR%201803.pdf

ADR 18/02 Applies for cars from 1 July 1995. Section 18.5.1.1.2 states;

[Speedometers] indicate the actual vehicle speed, for all speeds above 40 km/h, to an accuracy of ± 10 per cent.

So if your car was made pre-July 2006, then the ADR applicable to your car is ADR 18/02 (not sure on pre-95, but I imagine would be similar). If your displayed speed is 50 km/hr, but your actual speed is 55 km/hr, then your car meets the requirements for which it was built, but you will still be fined.

Likewise, you could be doing an indicated 98 km/hr in a 100 km/hr zone, doing what you think is the right thing. But your actual speed may be as high as 107.8 km/hr, and you will be fined.

As long as there are cars on the road built pre-July 2006, then the speed camera tolerance should be 10%. Anything more stringent is unfair punishment.

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by King Nothing

As long as there are cars on the road built pre-July 2006, then the speed camera tolerance should be 10%. Anything more stringent is unfair punishment.

That’s never bothered state governments before. Especially when the almighty dollar is involved.

[MRFGXR6]

These greedy so and so's will stop at nothing wont they. If Skippy was running this year I think I would vote for him, all our pollys wants to do is run the country financially into the ground then expect all of us to bail them out. The government doesn't give a dam about saving lives, I know they put on the genuine face and seem sincere but it’s all a concealment, this is just another money making venture for them. As with all the other little schemes they conjure up in their feeble little brains, this is revenue raising exercise and nothing more.
Perhaps if in the years past the Government hadn’t sold of its assets then they would still be making cash. How about they purchase or set up some of the mines for their own use, plenty of cash can be made, it stays in the country and we the people don’t have to bail them out every time the financial crap hits the fan. Oh and it saves emu the mining tax dilemma.
Come on Government and RTA officials, do something more constructive with yourselves. How about fix the roads especially NSW country instead of some slap happy fines, that’s how you will save lives not hit us with the ridiculous fines proposed as 4 km/h tolerance in speed.

[bdave351]

Geez Victoria is the laughing stock of the rest of Australia - we look at the lack of tolerance there and say its terrible.......and now were going the same way?

Didnt make any difference down there, wont up here. Hope we get rid of this Govt very soon (been saying that a long time though with no luck)

[Falc'man]

That sucks Gaela. It's frustrating and infuriating.

Originally Posted by bdave351

Didnt make any difference down there, wont up here.

I disagree.

At the moment, drivers are becoming more aware of where the cameras are, and driving "around" them by slowing all the way down, sometimes 15km/h below the speed limit to avoid a fine. Some people flaunt (roflmao) with the cameras by driving to the limit. Since this has become the norm the govern-mint has realised they're not screwing us as much. So the fix is a tighter tolerance.

It's like when we had a water shortage. We weren't allowed to use it for the garden or for washing anything outside. This meant the usage went down dramatically, causing the price of water to go up stupidly.

[PHATXR8]

I read recently that in the USA some madman shot-up a manned speed camera van operated by Redflex, the same company which will be operating in NSW....... they are no longer manning the vans in the USA.

It will be only a metter of time before someone gets to the end of their tether and does the same thing in Australia. If that happens, then there will be no tears shed by me!

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by PHATXR8

I read recently that in the USA some madman shot-up a manned speed camera van operated by Redflex, the same company which will be operating in NSW....... they are no longer manning the vans in the USA.

Here it is.

http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news...er_shot_041909

[[Tonko]]

Originally Posted by PHATXR8

It will be only a metter of time before someone gets to the end of their tether and does the same thing in Australia. If that happens, then there will be no tears shed by me!

How about some regret? They have a job to do, just like all of us.
If you don't like it. don't speed or if that seems impossible, write to your MP and whine.

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by [Tonko]

How about some regret? They have a job to do, just like all of us.
If you don't like it. don't speed or if that seems impossible, write to your MP and whine.

It’s not so much about them having a job to do, it’s more the rules that govern the way they operate. I’m sure that no one here would condone violence toward an operator of a speed camera, however, it’s a fact of life that there will be times when this sort of thing happens.

There are crackpots out there and just as you say, don’t speed, the same could be said for them as to why they don’t get another, possibly safer job. I’m sure that no one is holding a gun to their head and demanding that they be speed camera operators.

The government are just as guilty as the crackpots who assault or shoot these people because if they had “fair and reasonable” laws to start with, there wouldn’t be so much public resentment towards these things.

I guess that they are just following orders. There were a bunch of blokes who wore black uniforms in Germany who were “just following orders”.

[GT]

I was gutted to get one in the mail after the last AFF drag meet at Heathcote. Clocked me at 104 in a 100 area. The camera was in a vehicle on the other side of the road facing me and when the flash went off, I saw stars for a couple of minutes!

I agree the tolerance should be a bit higher but I paid my ticket and wore it. I find it quite difficult in the GT to keep the speed exactly where I want it, when the roads undulate and are windy - easier on straighter roads and I use my cruise control.

The new FG Ute has big numbers displaying the current speed which makes monitoring this much easier. Very difficult in the BA's and extremely distracting in traffic or at night.

GT

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by GT

I was gutted to get one in the mail after the last AFF drag meet at Heathcote. Clocked me at 104 in a 100 area. The camera was in a vehicle on the other side of the road facing me and when the flash went off, I saw stars for a couple of minutes!

I agree the tolerance should be a bit higher but I paid my ticket and wore it. I find it quite difficult in the GT to keep the speed exactly where I want it, when the roads undulate and are windy - easier on straighter roads and I use my cruise control.

The new FG Ute has big numbers displaying the current speed which makes monitoring this much easier. Very difficult in the BA's and extremely distracting in traffic or at night.

GT

Got done on that one as well on the way home from AFF draga ....... flash was a tad bright for that time of night. Scared the crap out of me. Talk about blinding for a while. Could only see a bright light in front of me for a while. Least it made me slow down as I couldnt see a bloody thing. I am sure its all about safety ....

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by GT

The camera was in a vehicle on the other side of the road facing me and when the flash went off, I saw stars for a couple of minutes!

GT

so if you had crashed as a result you could've sued the operator?