Ford Covers it's *** nicely

darcati · 27-10-2010, 12:57 PM

Just wanted to run something passed fellow readers on the implications of warranty and protecting not only the public but also the ford dealers. Confused? read on.

If a person buys a ford and at some stage decides to get a flash tune, nothing out of the ordinary many people on this forum have accepted the "you play you pay" philosophy mentioned many times.

Once the owner has had his fun and decides to trade it in or sell to a Ford dealer, they inspect the car clean it up and put it on the lot. Ford dealers have no way of knowing if the car has had the ecu flashed. A person then buys the car thinking it's all above board as their buying from a authorised Ford dealer and feel confident they have purchased a car with what oustanding new car warranty in tact, and drives his new pride and joy lovingly home.

He then has an issue with the motor, no problem he books it in at his local Ford dealer confident that whatever the issue is he has warranty to cover him. The dealer has to get approval from Ford to approve the repair and send out a factory technician to inspect the car. He plugs in his higher level factory diagnostic tool into your car that the dealers dont have and discovers that the ecu has been flashed and proceeds to flag your car on Ford's database on his findings.

The dealer says because the ecu has been flashed they cant get approval for Ford to authorise repairs to the motor and possibly the driveline. You go back to the dealer you originally purchased the car from and their just as much in the dark as you are as they had no idea on the car's history because they dont have the access that Ford factory techs have therefore couldnt warn or advise me on what I was buying.

So Ford have their asses covered and the dealer is a mushroom and the owner has forked out his hard earned cash on a car that has none or questionable warranty. The dealer has no intention of taking the car back and refunding the owner who was not advised of what he was buying.

Dont think it can happen, it has!!!!

XWGT · 27-10-2010, 01:12 PM

and I imagine a well worded and respectfull explanation of the facts to Ford CSR would probably see the issue resolved................

There are a number of legal technicalities that would ensure either

1) The orginal dealer took the car back and refunded your money
2) Ford make an exception to their warrany policy as they have to

but I suspect the first route would be much easier, cheaper and quicker.

Keep us posted

Iggypoppin' · 27-10-2010, 01:13 PM

So if it has happened can you please provide examples?

T3man · 27-10-2010, 01:13 PM

And more than once I imagine.

darcati · 27-10-2010, 01:22 PM

Ford CSR have been approached and say they can do nothing, That the only people that can help is the original dealer that the car was purchased from. Which have been very understanding but are falling short of stepping up and doing the right thing of taking the car back.

It's still early days and have refrained from mentioning names at this stage. All I can say is watch this space!!

XWGT · 27-10-2010, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darcati

Ford CSR have been approached and say they can do nothing, That the only people that can help is the original dealer that the car was purchased from. Which have been very understanding but are falling short of stepping up and doing the right thing of taking the car back.

It's still early days and have refrained from mentioning names at this stage. All I can say is watch this space!!

Simply mention to the dealer that you bought the car from that the fact the vehicle was under warranty and the warranty was an integral part of your buying decision and therefore the warranty has a "value" that has not been delivered to you.

Also point out that the car was advertised and sold with warranty, and that product has not been delivered to you.

Then mention the Office fo Fair Trading..........and negotiations should commence quite quickly between the dealer and Ford as to who is going to fix your car.

fmc351 · 27-10-2010, 01:25 PM

Sounds like youre in a high stakes poker game, and the dealer is bluffing you. Get onto the Dept of Fair Trading (or equivalent in your state), they will at least point you in the right direction. Motor Traders Association in your state (LMCT (Vic) or MTAQ (Qld) or whatever in your state is another option.

Id say you have legal recourse. It will take time and effort on your part, but given the dollars involved its worth it.

darcati · 27-10-2010, 01:41 PM

What are the implications if Ford backs down and against their policy warrant the car. I can hear flood gates creaking open!!!

Fair trading is an option but looks like a long tedious process. Granted the dealer have a "duty of care" whether they were/weren't aware.

Has anyone else experienced this as it surely must have happened to others.

GTP-814 · 27-10-2010, 01:48 PM

as an aside comment, i thought (on BA range) that if someone flashed a BA, BAII & BF (i think BF) that the service techs could not detect if it had been flashed or not

tweeked · 27-10-2010, 01:55 PM

ummmm, who would want to make and sell cars? People change your product, then sell it to a person who most probably knows it is modified, sometimes not. Then when it breaks they want it fixed.

I would say it is buyer beware. If you are not sure, take the car to Ford and get its ecu checked. If they wont check it, get it in writing off them then I feel you have a legitimate case.

fmc351 · 27-10-2010, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tweeked

ummmm, who would want to make and sell cars? People change your product, then sell it to a person who most probably knows it is modified, sometimes not. Then when it breaks they want it fixed.

I would say it is buyer beware. If you are not sure, take the car to Ford and get its ecu checked. If they wont check it, get it in writing off them then I feel you have a legitimate case.

Except it was sold with warranty, by a dealer.

If Ford refuse to check it, why would they then give him anything in writing?

GTpilot · 27-10-2010, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tweeked

ummmm, who would want to make and sell cars? People change your product, then sell it to a person who most probably knows it is modified, sometimes not. Then when it breaks they want it fixed.

I would say it is buyer beware. If you are not sure, take the car to Ford and get its ecu checked. If they wont check it, get it in writing off them then I feel you have a legitimate case.

Not that simple, from our point of view yes, we would think of it, but average joe may not know about flash tuning let alone the warranty implications.

Mum and Dad average, with an excited Dad buying that dream XR6 Ford he wanted for years, finds a BF II on the lot at his local ford dealer for $xxxxx, With balance of new car warranty.. No visual mods done to it, but unknown to him AND the dealer it once had rims, exhaust, tune etc. So he forks out his hard earned cash to by his dream car to cart the missus and critters around in.

Then one fine day......Bang.....smoke etc.....Sorry Sir Ford say No warranty on the engine with the piston hanging out the side....Cause it has previously been flash tuned..

when I sold my BF (traded through the dealer) I had returned EVERYTHING back to stock. Leaving the dealer AND the purchaser from that dealer no reason to believe the car had infact been modified and tuned.

I see you point 100% but the dealer sold teh car with a warranty. it's really up to the dealer to do their homework before offereing the product.

xtremerus · 27-10-2010, 01:59 PM

Warranty with any product, firstly is on the retailer to fix. It is their responsibility to fix a problem.
What happens between retailer and the manufacturer is nothing to do with the customer, and is not their problem. The retailer still has the main responsibility to fix problems.

tweeked · 27-10-2010, 02:21 PM

Because the dealer is unaware that warranty will not be covered

According to the OP only higher level scanning will uncover this

Quote:

Originally Posted by xtremerus

Warranty with any product, firstly is on the retailer to fix. It is their responsibility to fix a problem.
What happens between retailer and the manufacturer is nothing to do with the customer, and is not their problem. The retailer still has the main responsibility to fix problems.

Even when people have changed the product from standard? What has voided warranty was not between the manufacturer and retailer. It was done by an owner.

Ford never designed in the ability to modify their ECU's. It was cracked and a relatively stealthy change that can overburden parts of the car.

The retailer should take reasonable steps to check a second hand car. But a previous owner not disclosing information about the car should not fall back on the retailer. Otherwise, we all just end up paying by way of higher prices.

Mr_4.0 · 29-10-2010, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xtremerus

Warranty with any product, firstly is on the retailer to fix. It is their responsibility to fix a problem.
What happens between retailer and the manufacturer is nothing to do with the customer, and is not their problem. The retailer still has the main responsibility to fix problems.

exactly! they sold the car with balance of warrantee. they must hold it up, even if ford hasnt got their back, as the dealership inspected the car before you bought it.

divine_afg · 27-10-2010, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darcati

Just wanted to run something passed fellow readers on the implications of warranty and protecting not only the public but also the ford dealers. Confused? read on.

If a person buys a ford and at some stage decides to get a flash tune, nothing out of the ordinary many people on this forum have accepted the "you play you pay" philosophy mentioned many times.

Once the owner has had his fun and decides to trade it in or sell to a Ford dealer, they inspect the car clean it up and put it on the lot. Ford dealers have no way of knowing if the car has had the ecu flashed. A person then buys the car thinking it's all above board as their buying from a authorised Ford dealer and feel confident they have purchased a car with what oustanding new car warranty in tact, and drives his new pride and joy lovingly home.

He then has an issue with the motor, no problem he books it in at his local Ford dealer confident that whatever the issue is he has warranty to cover him. The dealer has to get approval from Ford to approve the repair and send out a factory technician to inspect the car. He plugs in his higher level factory diagnostic tool into your car that the dealers dont have and discovers that the ecu has been flashed and proceeds to flag your car on Ford's database on his findings.

The dealer says because the ecu has been flashed they cant get approval for Ford to authorise repairs to the motor and possibly the driveline. You go back to the dealer you originally purchased the car from and their just as much in the dark as you are as they had no idea on the car's history because they dont have the access that Ford factory techs have therefore couldnt warn or advise me on what I was buying.

So Ford have their asses covered and the dealer is a mushroom and the owner has forked out his hard earned cash on a car that has none or questionable warranty. The dealer has no intention of taking the car back and refunding the owner who was not advised of what he was buying.

Dont think it can happen, it has!!!!

Did this happen to F6 bought in Melb.

divine_afg · 27-10-2010, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by divine_afg

Did this happen to F6 bought in Melb.

.. was meant to ask - are you reffering to F6 bought in Melb recently.

darcati · 27-10-2010, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by divine_afg

.. was meant to ask - are you reffering to F6 bought in Melb recently.

No it wasnt

darcati · 27-10-2010, 02:33 PM

When purchasing a car from a Ford dealer "buyer beware" should be the last thing running through your head. The fault with the motor is minor but has the potential of being a very expensive exercise should the car suffer some sort of major failure and Ford dont come to the party.

The issue is of the unknown if I make a warranty claim later down the track, the dealer is happy to fix the problem but Ford approve and pay the dealer to do the warranty work. Ford ultimately have the decision, if they knock it back the dealer has no say in the decision. They are puppets whose strings are pulled by Ford.

Dealers dont have the feature to check if the ecu has been flashed and really who wants Ford to check their ecu only to find it has been and have the vehicle details on Fords database flagged for any future warranty claims. I'm sure people would rather fly under the radar then expose themselves even if their cars havent been modified.

Ford need to protect Ford dealers and buyers otherwise the only way of ensuring the car hasnt been tampered with is to buy a new one.

One question I want to ask Ford is there a date stamp when the flash was done. If it was before the new owner purchased the car then they could honor the remaining warranty to the new owner as long as the car was put back to standard tune, exhaust etc.

tweeked · 27-10-2010, 02:43 PM

It is a difficult one, and really the only answer for the dealer is to purchase the scanner (big dollars), and extra training on staff (dollars) and staff time to do and document the tests, checking a main database to find out how many flashes, and compare (dollars)

So we all pay an extra grand on a car to have the warranty

I remember speaking to my brother in law years back who was a director at GMH about retuning the Crummidores. He was shocked that it was done.

There should be a law against it

Bobman · 27-10-2010, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darcati

The fault with the motor is minor but has the potential of being a very expensive exercise should the car suffer some sort of major failure and Ford dont come to the party.

If it's minor and has potential of being very expensive, then I'd suggest to stop driving it.

Can you elaborate on the exact problem? Might be better off repairing it yourself as getting a dealer to repair it under warranty could just end up with more problems!

fmc351 · 27-10-2010, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobman

If it's minor and has potential of being very expensive, then I'd suggest to stop driving it.

Can you elaborate on the exact problem? Might be better off repairing it yourself as getting a dealer to repair it under warranty could just end up with more problems!

Im not sure how he'd go with this, but considering he paid for warranty, and a dealership premium, Id be wanting another car. They can send this one to the wholesalers and let it sell for what its worth.

**DJM83** · 27-10-2010, 04:19 PM

Not a second hand car but a similar dilemma with an slightly modded XR5 and busted radiator
Link
Shows you the extent some will go to to void a warranty.

fmc351 · 27-10-2010, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJM83

Not a second hand car but a similar dilemma with an slightly modded XR5 and busted radiator
Link
Shows you the extent some will go to to void a warranty.

Is that barnesy fellow a member here? Nice offer on the radiator.

After all that, its RACQ that come to the party.

**DJM83** · 27-10-2010, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fmc351

Is that barnesy fellow a member here? Nice offer on the radiator.

After all that, its RACQ that come to the party.

PM Sent

darcati · 27-10-2010, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobman

If it's minor and has potential of being very expensive, then I'd suggest to stop driving it.

Can you elaborate on the exact problem? Might be better off repairing it yourself as getting a dealer to repair it under warranty could just end up with more problems!

Sorry, I haven't explained myself properly, the current fault is stalling which it does intermittently when coming to a stop. I meant to say that at the moment it's a minor fault but what happens IF the car suffers a catastrophic engine failure( knock on wood) what would happen then was my point.

I'd be really surprised if Ford isnt monitoring these forums, they should be and I recommend they look at this seriously as It really dissappoints me that there is no protection to consumers but Ford in it's bid to waive resonsibility have sprayed themselves with "teflon".

OLDFORDNUT · 31-10-2010, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobman

If it's minor and has potential of being very expensive, then I'd suggest to stop driving it.
Can you elaborate on the exact problem? Might be better off repairing it yourself as getting a dealer to repair it under warranty could just end up with more problems!

sorry bud but your post is rubbish and still leaves owner with car that is marked as altered and owner as someone who gives in easy. your advice would kill any future claims,im actually amazed you wrote this dribble,some of you need to think before you type.Darcati, take it back to dealer and start making a scene, they are taking your politeness as a joke, best wait till you see several customers in there and start yelling now, you have been more than fair to them now they are quite obviously standing over you with dribble.

**Polyal** · 27-10-2010, 02:45 PM

Its a hard call, but at the end of the day Ford cant warrant every claim made.

Just so I am correct, the dealer got the car in as a trade in, thought it was stock, sold it on and then the end user found out it was tuned only through warranty work being done for a claim? Ford says no because its been tuned.

I can see Fords POV, if anyone has stuffed up its the dealer IMO.

What dealers do is up to them, imagine trying to cover every car that gets fiddled with?

And any proof of this "higher" level scanning not being available to tuners/dealers? Surely its recorded in the ECU somewhere and is retrievable by anyone who knows what they are doing.

Would be interesting to hear from personal from a dealership or tuner on this site.

tweeked · 27-10-2010, 02:51 PM

Yeah i was just thinking the same about the "high" level scanner.

if it is a $20000 piece of equipment (or a newer model) thats only difference is just to identify number of flashes i can understand why dealerships wouldn't have upgraded. Or they may be unavailable to the dealerships

BUT

If all scanners can access the data, and they were creating a "mythical scanner" as an excuse, then it would be dealer beware and payup on the warranty

**Polyal** · 27-10-2010, 02:52 PM

Well IMO if it is true its an operating cost to the dealership to protect themselves and their customers...there is no excuse on the dealerships behalf, they should know better. They can write the thing off anyway...but I still find it hard to believe.