Wheel alignment - do you leave your car?

[Strattos]

G'day fellas,

Just curious how you go about trusting your car to workshops for wheel alignments or replacing tyres? Do you leave it with them or camp out at the workshop until it's done?

The reason I ask, my ute has a warm cam and heads, and while it's not the most powerful thing out there, due to the cam you can tell the motor's not stock.

I've got a couple of mates in my area who had a coupe of experiences where their modified cars have either been unnecessarily taken for joyrides, or at worst been witnessed being flogged around town after leaving them for wheel alignments etc.

Given you often drop cars off in the morning and it could be done any time during the day, it's almost impossible to get it done while you wait as you could be there all day.

What approach do you guys take?

[Dauphin]

The last time I specifically had an alignment done I was sitting in the waiting room with magazines/TV and could see the workshop, including my car being worked on. Took about half an hour to 45 mins from memory. Edit: They didn't test drive it.

[Giant Cranium]

I always take them to a place I trust. If you don't trust them go elsewhere

[Itsme]

Take it to bob Jane, they don't do test drives, matter of fact most tyre places don't do this practice any more.

[Full_Monty]

Find a different workshop if you don't trust them / know them. Build a relationship, let em know you cherish your car, and blood will be spilt if it is disrespected or damaged...lol

[blackf6]

My wheel aligner tests around the block whilst I wait. I can hear the car. If they give it a squirt, it is no big deal to me. As long as I see it looking cool.

[GasoLane]

I get mine done at the same place every time. It's always taken for a drive before, to see what if handles like, and after to see if there's a difference.

If you've booked a time for it to be done I don't see why you would need to leave it with them all day.

[Strattos]

Thanks for all the ideas. Might make them give me a specific time so that I can be there the whole time and work from there in terms of developing the relationship.

Given I haven't really dealt with anyone for years, have to start from scratch in terms of finding a workshop I like and trust.

[Jess1992]

Some places have taken mine for a drive, and call me weird or it might be some fetish, but I love seeing my car being driven haha. It's kinda like those people that have a fetish for watching someone do their husband or wife lol

[Spurious]

Originally Posted by Jess1992

Some places have taken mine for a drive, and call me weird or it might be some fetish, but I love seeing my car being driven haha. It's kinda like those people that have a fetish for watching someone do their husband or wife lol

So....are you married by chance? LOL

[Spurious]

If your car is booked in, it shouldn't take that long. If the shop insists it'll be a while then just come back.
But a booking is a booking, IMO if they aren't ready to work on it when you arrive, or within a reasonable time frame of let's say 15 to 30 mins, then politely re-book or find another shop.
If you're worried that much about leaving your car, then make the time to hang around.

I have always done wheels aligns myself, it's not that hard really, & if I need to use a mechanic for anything I always give them strict instructions that the car is NOT to be test driven, 'cause dealing with the aftermath of an incident (which results in damage) is simply not worth the hassle.

If I do have to leave my car with a workshop, I tell them straight up that I CANNOT afford to be without the vehicle so there's absolutely no room for shenanigans, do not let any young guys behind the wheel, DO NOT at any point leave the keys in it (& leave it locked if parked out front) & I also make a point of stating that if I am happy with the work then they will see me again.
You can also tell them that your boss made you fit a GPS logger, so the vehicles movements & speed are constantly recorded.

If you just park the car, throw 'em the keys & say "See ya later", you just become another number to them!

You could always take the time to "suss" out the shop before you go there. Sit up the road for a short time & watch the way they conduct themselves.
If you pull up in the GT & 2 or 3 young guys come out to "oooooh" over it, a big red flag should go up.

Just make it very clear, "The car's my baby, smack it & I'll bury you" !!!

[Spurious]

...& before you all ask, I wheel align my own car at home using a long straight edge (1" dowel or thicker, at least 2m in length), a measure tape, a trolley jack (or ramps for minute adjustments) & a couple of spanners.

Simple:
Centre the steering wheel & see which side needs to move, if not both, this is where the long straight edge is used by placing it across the centre line of the rim & hold it parallel to the body.

1: Do this on both sides to see which wheel is off & by roughly how much, by eyeballing the gap between the end of the dowel & the body (@ drivers/pass' doors).

2: Raise the front enough to take the weight off the tyres (not off the ground), then loosen the tie rods & adjust them no more than 1/4 of a turn at a time, repeat step 1 until you're happy they're pretty even both sides.

*Be aware that the wheels will often rest on a slightly different angle when they're raised off or almost off the ground, & wide tyres will often pull to one/either side (whilst driving) depending on road surface. Using ramps for the alignment will ensure the wheels are sitting "normally" during the procedure.

At this point you can tighten the tie rods, lower the car, remove jack & drive along a short straight road to get a feel for it. Repeat step 2 if need be.

Once you're done with the major adjustments, raise the car again (tyres contacting ground) & use the measure tape to accurately measure the distance between the same tread groove on each tyre, the centre most groove for example.
Do this by placing the tape as high as you can against the chassis on the front of the tyres & again at the back (both front tyres of course, NOT the rear tyres LOL).
If there's a difference between the 2 measurements then adjust them TOGETHER a fraction more. ie: if the rear measurement is 3mm wider then the front, then adjust BOTH wheels 1.5mm inward at the back (toeing out).
I personally will tolerate a >1mm difference between the front measurement & the back

If you find the car pulls to one side whilst driving straight, this indicates that (usually) the wheel on the side to which the car pulls will need to be toed IN.
This is not always the case but this is why I use 2 methods of measure at the same time. ie; the dowel straight edge & the measure tape.

Granted that this sounds complicated on paper, you'll find it'll take you roughly 30 to 40mins given that a short drive is advisable after each small adjustment.

I will take photos of my car to prove my theory if necessary, to simply demonstrate that after the last alignment, some 2 years ago, even though I've since bought different wheels, my wheels are dead on, it drives & brakes in a straight line, & the current tyres show no signs of uneven wear & they've been on the car for about 6 months.
I've done 3 alignments on my car in 6 years, each a success!

[superyob]

I watch my unremarkable beaten up ZD like a hawk!!!

[MercurySilver]

My tire joint doesnt test drive, but i still wait and watch after a ford dealer de cided to but 30 plus kms on the car once when leaving it for a basic service...never again

[Strattos]

Originally Posted by MercurySilver

My tire joint doesnt test drive, but i still wait and watch after a ford dealer de cided to but 30 plus kms on the car once when leaving it for a basic service...never again

Exactly, that's the sort of stuff I'm worried about. Fair enough if they need to take it around the block, but it's actions like this that are a worry, as well as giving it a flogging.

[Express]

I always wait for tyre work including wheel alignments and haven’t been to anywhere that needed to test drive it.

If it's in for mechanical work then a test is a big possibility and that’s why my cars go to shops I know and if they do get a little excited what I don’t know won’t hurt me.

[Strattos]

I haven't got a major problem with them driving it - it's how they drive it that concerns me.

[4vxc]

Originally Posted by Strattos

I haven't got a major problem with them driving it - it's how they drive it that concerns me.

My pet hate, if I ever saw a customers car being abused it was instant dismissal no matter what the car

[4vxc]

I have done lots of alignments and can tell you if you don't test drive the car it's asking for trouble, everything might come up OK but I've had plenty of cars that will pull or the steering wheel might be
slightly out after the alignment.
There's many reasons that can happened but better to correct it before it goes back to the customer.
Superyob, good luck getting that zd setup correctly because 95% of people won't know where to start and will only toe it.
Not only don't they know how to do anything but toe adjustments but they don't want to know how to do anything else because unfortunately they don't give a rats

[mechanic]

Originally Posted by 4vxc

I have done lots of alignments and can tell you if you don't test drive the car it's asking for trouble, everything might come up OK but I've had plenty of cars that will pull or the steering wheel might be
slightly out after the alignment.
There's many reasons that can happened but better to correct it before it goes back to the customer.
Superyob, good luck getting that zd setup correctly because 95% of people won't know where to start and will only toe it.
Not only don't they know how to do anything but toe adjustments but they don't want to know how to do anything else because unfortunately they don't give a rats

That's so true.All very well setting the vehicle up to specs, but that has no real bearing on how it will drive on the road. Steering wheel could be off centre, may pull one way. Last thing you want is the customer coming back with his hair in a knot and possibly having to redo work when time is of the essence.
Test drives in the bigger workshops are normally done by the foreman or service manager anyway.

[Express]

Originally Posted by 4vxc

I have done lots of alignments and can tell you if you don't test drive the car it's asking for trouble, everything might come up OK but I've had plenty of cars that will pull or the steering wheel might be
slightly out after the alignment.
There's many reasons that can happened but better to correct it before it goes back to the customer.
Superyob, good luck getting that zd setup correctly because 95% of people won't know where to start and will only toe it.
Not only don't they know how to do anything but toe adjustments but they don't want to know how to do anything else because unfortunately they don't give a rats

With all the cars I've had I've never had any of these problems and if I thought there was the slightest thing wrong I'd be straight back.

It makes me wonder how often they get it wrong or who's incompetent or what type of shop you're talking about?

[4vxc]

Originally Posted by Express

With all the cars I've had I've never had any of these problems and if I thought there was the slightest thing wrong I'd be straight back.

It makes me wonder how often they get it wrong or who's incompetent or what type of shop you're talking about?

Hate to tell you but unless you can find a real front end specialist who takes pride in his work (very rare but they exist) it makes no difference where you go as guys doing wheel alignments tend to move often always looking for something better.

Biggest problem with alignments on most modern cars is only the toe is adjustable, hence the term "toe and go " and even when the toe is out a considerable amount the car can still track straight. So you can have both wheels toeing in or out and the car will run straight especially with the large amounts of castor cars have these days but as long as the steering wheel is straight and the car doesn't pull,generally to the left, the poor customer thinks it's a good alignment but it ain't necessarily so.
Typical scenario old mate brings his corolla in because it's pulling to the left.
Typical I don't give a crap operator technique
Check tyre pressures (hopefully)
Put heads on wheels,correctly with any luck
Goes through the basic setup on the screen (hopefully enters correct model info)
Runs sweep ect
Returns the steering wheel to center locks it up
Check screen display, if one side toe is red on the screen adjust tie rod until it goes into the green zone
Lock it up,off comes the heads, steering wheel clamp and away she goes.
Problem is the green zone on the screen is a pretty big adjustment area
So unless you have someone who will take the time to correctly align the car that's how it happens.
Worst thing is both cars will run straight and true but only one is going to get maximum tyre life and good handling
As for getting a xk-xf done seek a proper front end guy or a true suspension specialist who really knows how to set up a old Falcon properly, no toe and goes for these old girls

[LoudPipes]

Originally Posted by 4vxc

Hate to tell you but unless you can find a real front end specialist who takes pride in his work (very rare but they exist) it makes no difference where you go as guys doing wheel alignments tend to move often always looking for something better.

Biggest problem with alignments on most modern cars is only the toe is adjustable, hence the term "toe and go " and even when the toe is out a considerable amount the car can still track straight. So you can have both wheels toeing in or out and the car will run straight especially with the large amounts of castor cars have these days but as long as the steering wheel is straight and the car doesn't pull,generally to the left, the poor customer thinks it's a good alignment but it ain't necessarily so.
Typical scenario old mate brings his corolla in because it's pulling to the left.
Typical I don't give a crap operator technique
Check tyre pressures (hopefully)
Put heads on wheels,correctly with any luck
Goes through the basic setup on the screen (hopefully enters correct model info)
Runs sweep ect
Returns the steering wheel to center locks it up
Check screen display, if one side toe is red on the screen adjust tie rod until it goes into the green zone
Lock it up,off comes the heads, steering wheel clamp and away she goes.
Problem is the green zone on the screen is a pretty big adjustment area
So unless you have someone who will take the time to correctly align the car that's how it happens.
Worst thing is both cars will run straight and true but only one is going to get maximum tyre life and good handling
As for getting a xk-xf done seek a proper front end guy or a true suspension specialist who really knows how to set up a old Falcon properly, no toe and goes for these old girls

This is all very interesting, so how do we know who to trust?

How do we mere mortals tell if our alignment is correct if a poor alignment still runs straight?

“As long as the steering wheel is straight and the car doesn't pull, generally to the left, the poor customer thinks it's a good alignment but it ain't necessarily so”, so how does the technician pick up there is a problem with a test drive if the customer can’t feel it?

And if they don’t care in the first place they're still not going to care just because they took it for a test.

I’m another that sits and waits at the tyre retailer and haven’t seen anyone take my cars for a test.

I also keep an eye on my tyres for uneven wear, it’s a part of my weekly maintenance routine.

From what you’ve written the vehicle owner is just fodder to the wheel aligners and it doesn’t matter if they test or not as we are not smart enough to know any better.

If they are good at their job they don’t need to test and if they are bad at it, it doesn’t matter whether they test or not as there is every chance we won’t know unless you’re too silly to check your tyres on a regular basis.

[4vxc]

Originally Posted by LoudPipes

This is all very interesting, so how do we know who to trust?

How do we mere mortals tell if our alignment is correct if a poor alignment still runs straight?

“As long as the steering wheel is straight and the car doesn't pull, generally to the left, the poor customer thinks it's a good alignment but it ain't necessarily so”, so how does the technician pick up there is a problem with a test drive if the customer can’t feel it?

And if they don’t care in the first place they're still not going to care just because they took it for a test.

I’m another that sits and waits at the tyre retailer and haven’t seen anyone take my cars for a test.

I also keep an eye on my tyres for uneven wear, it’s a part of my weekly maintenance routine.

From what you’ve written the vehicle owner is just fodder to the wheel aligners and it doesn’t matter if they test or not as we are not smart enough to know any better.

If they are good at their job they don’t need to test and if they are bad at it, it doesn’t matter whether they test or not as there is every chance we won’t know unless you’re too silly to check your tyres on a regular basis.

who to trust? if you have mates that are really into cars ask who they use
also car clubs and the like are really good places to find out who's hot and who's not

how to check? assuming new or very good cond tyres run your hand front to back over the tread especially the edges if you feel ridges or like its feathered somethings up

how does technician check? his screen is either green or red

its not that the customer is fodder its that most people in that line of work get sick of it pretty quick and quality suffers accordingly, but like I said there ARE decent places it just a matter of finding them

No1 tip for late model Falcons, keep that tyre pressure up
factory spec is only good for comfort and short tyre life
18's and 19's 38psi at a minimun
and rotate regularly

[Express]

Originally Posted by 4vxc

Hate to tell you but unless you can find a real front end specialist who takes pride in his work (very rare but they exist) it makes no difference where you go as guys doing wheel alignments tend to move often always looking for something better.

Biggest problem with alignments on most modern cars is only the toe is adjustable, hence the term "toe and go " and even when the toe is out a considerable amount the car can still track straight. So you can have both wheels toeing in or out and the car will run straight especially with the large amounts of castor cars have these days but as long as the steering wheel is straight and the car doesn't pull,generally to the left, the poor customer thinks it's a good alignment but it ain't necessarily so.
Typical scenario old mate brings his corolla in because it's pulling to the left.
Typical I don't give a crap operator technique
Check tyre pressures (hopefully)
Put heads on wheels,correctly with any luck
Goes through the basic setup on the screen (hopefully enters correct model info)
Runs sweep ect
Returns the steering wheel to center locks it up
Check screen display, if one side toe is red on the screen adjust tie rod until it goes into the green zone
Lock it up,off comes the heads, steering wheel clamp and away she goes.
Problem is the green zone on the screen is a pretty big adjustment area
So unless you have someone who will take the time to correctly align the car that's how it happens.
Worst thing is both cars will run straight and true but only one is going to get maximum tyre life and good handling
As for getting a xk-xf done seek a proper front end guy or a true suspension specialist who really knows how to set up a old Falcon properly, no toe and goes for these old girls

Well it sounds like I’ve been one lucky punter and it really does come down to having people with the right skills and commitment.

Most of my daily cars have coilovers and they are installed and maintained by a Chassis Tuner who took pity on me when I couldn’t find someone I could trust to check the setup on my AMG.

He advertises that he does but in truth he picks and chooses his clients and doesn’t do street cars as a general rule but has looked after me for 5 years now and all my cars go to him for any new work and for their annual suspension check-ups.

He’s doing his first VF Ute soon as today he confirmed an install date for my new coilovers.

One day to fit, I get called in to agree with the ride height, he feels I go too low but it’s the one concession he allows me.

Then one day to test and tune and I have no say in the way he sets it up and if I don’t like it I can go elsewhere, no if or buts.

Not that I have to worry as he’s a perfectionist and I can’t fault him.

He then does a lock down and won’t change the setting unless I want the ride height adjusted.

My tyres are fitted at the same place I’ve been using for about 20 years even though I have to travel back to Sydney to have them do the work.

They are the only ones I trust not to damage my rims and they happily allow me to get under the car and take photos and measurements for new rim clearances and check offsets before I buy as they know I’ll then come back and purchase the tyres off them.

They do an alignment after fitting tyres and not once have they ever taken any of my cars for a test and not once have I ever needed to take a car back for a touch up.

The same fellow has been doing the tyre fitting and alignment for over ten years and he still tells the story about the bets they took on whether the 20x10 inch rims I’d bought would fit under a C Class.

He was right and won, they did fit, like a glove.

If I have any problems like hitting a pothole I take the car to my Chassis Tuner to check.

I have to book it in and I leave it with him and have no idea what procedure he goes through.

I spend a lot on sticky tyres and therefore I check them regularly and know every mark on them and if I had an alignment problem that only showed due to uneven wear I’d be onto it like Sylvester onto Tweety.

That's the beauty of being retired and having nothing better to do but make sure everything is the way you want it.

I feel sorry for owners who have to worry about what goes on with their cars behind their back as I trust the people who touch mine.

[superyob]

Originally Posted by 4vxc

I have done lots of alignments and can tell you if you don't test drive the car it's asking for trouble, everything might come up OK but I've had plenty of cars that will pull or the steering wheel might be
slightly out after the alignment.
There's many reasons that can happened but better to correct it before it goes back to the customer.
Superyob, good luck getting that zd setup correctly because 95% of people won't know where to start and will only toe it.
Not only don't they know how to do anything but toe adjustments but they don't want to know how to do anything else because unfortunately they don't give a rats

Unfortunately 4vxc, you are correct. However, the place I took it to after I had the power steering reconditioned did a fairly accurate job (which included moving the left front wheel forward slightly) and got the geometry right without any specs to refer to...

[blackf6]

Every time I get my BF GT aligned, it takes them atleast 3 goes to get right! Rev bouncing burn outs and body damage is one thing. But a quick squirt round the block. Who cares.

[castellan]

There are some dogs out their, I bought a brand new car and put new springs and shocks in myself then went to get the wheel alignment set to what I wanted, this moron came out to me tying to point out something was worn out the car had 273KM on the clock
I just said, she will be right tiger!
After all is finished I said come and have a look at this boy, it's a brand new car dude ! the VS commodores had only just came out and I had mine ordered before they came out, so it was about 3 weeks at most that the VS was first realised.
He pointed out that he had 2 others working their to give him back him up, they both looked at me shaking their heads no we won't, I just said look I work for lowlifes just like him if not worse, that call themselves Builders that are always trying to f me over everyday and treat me like their n----- slave as well.
I was in a good mood and that was nothing to fight over, if I started swinging over that, I would be coming out swinging everyday, and I have been ripped off for thousands.
Not to mention my dad worked out in todays money he had been done for 13 million over his working life by such p---ks.
But hey that's just derelict people for ya playing their little games everyday, but one day their chooks may just turn into emu's and peck their dunny down and they will be on TV the poor bastards crying poor me, a Emu gave him a touch up.
The poor bastards just get so use to spinning s--t that it becomes a 24/7 thing and the thing is they don't care at all about anything, but to just sell you anything, like coil overs are big load of toss nowadays with people believing it's the only way to go B/S ! they would try to sell your grand mother coil overs

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by castellan

like coil overs are big load of toss nowadays with people believing it's the only way to go B/S ! they would try to sell your grand mother coil overs

Umm, I'm a Grandfather and Ive had a couple of old V12 Jags.

Jaguar had inboard brakes with Coilovers on all 4 rear shocks. I guess this means that Jag didn't know what they were doing

[castellan]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

Umm, I'm a Grandfather and Ive had a couple of old V12 Jags.

Jaguar had inboard brakes with Coilovers on all 4 rear shocks. I guess this means that Jag didn't know what they were doing

It's the set up design that Jaguar used that worked well with that design.

But it's all about the geometry that makes a car handle first and foremost and then comes the spring rates etc and damping.

Bloody hell most bikes had coil overs even back in the 70's Yamaha DT 125 etc remember