VFacts Jan 2012 Falcon 950 sales!!!!!!!!!

[martyk54]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Edit,
Unlike the Boss 5.4 that was built in AUS by FPV, the Coyote is a main stream production engine that is way lighter,
a lot cheaper, has similar power and better fuel economy. it's an engine that could find a home in more cars than XR8
because it's available in at least two power levels and doesn't require a bonnet bulge to make the engine fit.

I was told by a Ford employee that the 5.4 originated from American trucks (F250 etc.), so it was really never ideal or fitting for it's purpose in Australia to go up against the LS1-3 as a 'performance' engine. No doubt Ford Australia modified it, but it's an American engine.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by burnz

mexico cannot export period, all crates come from "flint" michigan no if no buts.

not even holden can source from mexico even if they were giving them for free..

you must have friends who have genIII, gen IV engines?? even check the car yards

all start with VF serials (flint create exports)

Are you sure they're not assembled in Silao, Mexico and then forwarded to N/A before exporting.
Much of Flint North was to close and Flint south does 4,6's I thought...but this has no bearing on this thread, sorry.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

Are you sure they're not assembled in Silao, Mexico and then forwarded to N/A before exporting.
Much of Flint North was to close and Flint south does V6's I thought...but this has no bearing on this thread, sorry.

That's what I thought, they use Flint as an export point for engines and transmissions.
After Ion let Holden down with V6 block costs, they even started importing V6 blocks
and Heads from Mexico but not sure if that is the case today..

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by martyk54

I was told by a Ford employee that the 5.4 originated from American trucks (F250 etc.), so it was really never ideal or fitting for it's purpose in Australia to go up against the LS1-3 as a 'performance' engine. No doubt Ford Australia modified it, but it's an American engine.

If Ford could have had their time over, I'm sure they would have just done a blown 4.6 V8 and saved a lot of heartache.
That engine would have been a much nicer fit , a lot lighter being alloy block and run way better too..

Plenty of power and torque, way better fuel economy too..

[MrZ]

Where's the guy who always posts the detailed breakdown for each model for Ford, Toyota, Holden, Mazda etc?

[burnz]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

Are you sure they're not assembled in Silao, Mexico and then forwarded to N/A before exporting.
Much of Flint North was to close and Flint south does 4,6's I thought...but this has no bearing on this thread, sorry.

actally it's all one building thats so large they call north, south, central, east, west..

and to clarifie what goes on their; some times they cast some time's import from mexico, st catherine, toondawanda,,,if they cant keep up..
and assemble their then stamp the components as their own..

same as holden block mexico, heads st catherine canada.. assembled here and stamped local or for world export..
same rules applie you cant buy a create V6 from anyone but holden..
or a crate V8 but flint... thats "crate" not local assemble for domestic market..

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by burnz

actally it's all one building thats so large they call north, south, central, east, west..

and to clarifie what goes on their; some times they cast some time's import from mexico, st catherine, toondawanda,,,if they cant keep up..
and assemble their then stamp the components as their own..

same as holden block mexico, heads st catherine canada.. assembled here and stamped local or for world export..
same rules applie you cant buy a create V6 from anyone but holden..
or a crate V8 but flint... thats "crate" not local assemble for domestic market..

Thanks for clarifying the situation Burnz, that makes a lot of sense and probably why
the press gets reporting wrong by zoning in on origin but not assembly/ export point.

Any word on next Gen small block details, will it still come from Flint?

[burnz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Thanks for clarifying the situation Burnz, that makes a lot of sense and probably why
the press gets reporting wrong by zoning in on origin but not assembly/ export point.

Any word on next Gen small block details, will it still come from Flint?

holden will stick with the L98/76..
hsv is lookig at 5.5DI with cam in cam in block VVT..interesting bit of kit..

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by burnz

holden will stick with the L98/76..
hsv is lookig at 5.5DI with cam in cam in block VVT..interesting bit of kit..

I've heard a few whispers about that one, it's apparently a very good engine and will keep FPV honest...
(440 hp, same as Boss 5.0 but with a lot more torque...)

I expect Ford NA to have DI Coyote in place when the new GM 5.5 DI arrives,
both engines will make bulk power with good fuel and high compression.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

I've heard a few whispers about that one, it's apparently a very good engine and will keep FPV honest...
(440 hp, same as Boss 5.0 but with a lot more torque...)

I expect Ford NA to have DI Coyote in place when the new GM 5.5 DI arrives,
both engines will make bulk power with good fuel and high compression.

i have limited knowlege... all i know is 5.5DI generated 450bhp at the fly...
add that they is adding VVT may/should perform better..

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by jpd80

If Ford could have had their time over, I'm sure they would have just done a blown 4.6 V8 and saved a lot of heartache.
That engine would have been a much nicer fit , a lot lighter being alloy block and run way better too..

Plenty of power and torque, way better fuel economy too..

Yep. Ford NA wanted the Falcon to have the modular motor back in the AU. Ford AU said no. Then told the public it couldn't fit... But later the Hilliers Coupe (2door supercharged AU Falcon) with a 4.6L S/C rated at 300kW proved otherwise.

We ended up with the terrific AU T3 5.6L V8 which are highly regarded. So they should be with 250kW/500Nm. But prior to that we had 175/185/200/220kW versions. The 4.6L in NA and SC form would've rocked!

NA rated as 240kW/430Nm.
SC very underated at 290kW/530Nm.

A mod V8 motor and turbo six would've been a terrific 1-2 on the opposition.

I really think that Ford should bring the V8 back and put it into XR8, G8E, XR8 Ute. The 250 sales a month is about 10% of production. Got to be a good thing.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by burnz

i have limited knowlege... all i know is 5.5DI generated 450bhp at the fly...
add that they is adding VVT may/should perform better..

And there's nothing stopping HSV apply a Harrop Blower to their engines either..

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Polyal

R&D...well block, mounts etc are done...so you would need calibartion.

EPA - yeah ok this would hurt, but do it ASAP and you have a longer term to get ROI.

NCAP - I would argue that a Miami would be worst case to a coyote...stuff all in it and it would depend on clearances which should favor the later.

You need to forget the NA V8, its not going to happen, they have left it too late. Even if they started it up again now, by the time it got to market it would leave a very small window to get a ROI, which would blow the price out. It would only really be possible if they knew it was going to continue as RWD post 2016.

I think its well an truely dead and people need to forget about.

Originally Posted by burnz

holden will stick with the L98/76..
hsv is lookig at 5.5DI with cam in cam in block VVT..interesting bit of kit..

Gee, they are getting real high tech now aren't they, a cam in block pushrod VVT.

[russellw]

Originally Posted by phillyc

At about 1,000 sales per month across all sedan, wagon, ute Commodore derivatives and $6k extra asking price, it is the V8 which is keeping the model afloat. It's an extra $6M a month in revenue for essentially nothing. Meaning breakeven becomes $72M loss without V8 to GMH.

I think if Ford fitted the 5.0L Coyote to Falcon, an easy 250/month sales across sedan and ute would follow. There has been many on here who have reluctantly bought an SS because of no XR8 being available. I'm sure then that many of the 250/month sales would return and in some way be 'conquest' sales. Based on this sales rate and a similar profit level, it would add $18M to the bottom line over a year.

There-in is the great unknown. While Holden managed slightly over 700 sales a month for their SWB non-HSV V8 variants (based on 2011 figures), slightly over 115 of these were in wagons meaning that 585 went into sedans and utes (where Ford competes).

In the last full year of XR8 sales they averaged 131 units per month so the business case is a hard one on those numbers.

Cheers
Russ

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by russellw

There-in is the great unknown. While Holden managed slightly over 700 sales a month for their SWB non-HSV V8 variants (based on 2011 figures), slightly over 115 of these were in wagons meaning that 585 went into sedans and utes (where Ford competes).

In the last full year of XR8 sales they averaged 131 units per month so the business case is a hard one on those numbers.

Cheers
Russ

Thanks for the numbers Russell, while it's true that XR8 sold badly in it's last full year,
that could been due to expectant buyers waiting off for the much publicised Coyote engine
but when FPV made the eleventh hour call to have a GS, Ford was left with no XR8.

It depends how Ford approaches the whole issue of a V8 Ford range versus protecting FPV,
judicious use of a crate NA 5.0 would make non aligned product at affordable prices and
very competitive with Holden SS and Calais models, something I feel Ford should still try.

While the Turbo I-6 still sells in acceptable numbers, it is clear that V8 buyers are a different
group and giving them what they want is part of increasing good sales but as for outright
performance, well that is now the realm of FPV. So unfettered from that expectation, I would
see the Mustang 5.0 doing quite well in Falcon provided it is priced to keep Holden honest.

It all costs money and Ford would love to do a fraction of the things we post,
it's finding the mix of product and sales needed to stabilise Falcon so that
Ford can catch its breath and build on a strong foundation..

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by jpd80

If Ford could have had their time over, I'm sure they would have just done a blown 4.6 V8 and saved a lot of heartache.
That engine would have been a much nicer fit , a lot lighter being alloy block and run way better too..

Plenty of power and torque, way better fuel economy too..

Actually the supercharged 4.6L was cast iron.
And the Supercharged 5.4 was only alloy in the GT, and 2011-onwards Shelby

[russellw]

I wouldn't disagree with your logic but rather the willingness of FoA to take that punt - looking back to 2008 which is the last year I have full Ford/Holden performance sales breakdowns, the XR8 pair were doing about 150 units per month. The comparable Holden models were running at about 840 so they have actually dropped a bit since.

I know there was fierce debate around whether an NA version of the Coyote would find it's way into an XR8 but as you pointed out, the market space ended up reserved for FPV with their GS.

In one way it was a good call. There is undoubtedly a price premium (read extra profit) from that approach; it helps FPV recoup the substantial investment in Coyote engineering and a percentage of those 131 buyers ended up in a GS anyway.

Indeed, looking at the 2010 numbers for XR8, the 7 months when they were still on sale yielded all of 474 combined sales or 68 a month in round figures. GS sales are running around the 45/month mark so it seems a reasonable argument given that the GS is basically an XR with an FPV badge.

Cheers
Russ

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by burnz

actally it's all one building thats so large they call north, south, central, east, west..

Not according to google maps, or is that another company below, not sure. Bloody big complex. http://maps.google.com/maps?q=42.986...Plant%29&hl=en

Going back on topic, the problem with deciding to drop certain models based on current sales is that are you swinging the axe for the wrong reasons? Unfortunately the XR8 image was tarnished and some thought it still inferior in it's last guise to it's opposition which couldn't be further than the truth. The drop in sales has to be based on proper reasoning, ie did the hype about the new V8 stall current FG XR8 sales because for awhile I expected a newly engined XR8 and possible G series version. Dropping wagon and now having an Lpg engine that would be perfect in it for the market it sold in seems a erraneous decision.

[1TUFFUTE]

i just wish theyd make the GS the XR8 badge right now and be done with the silly no heritage GS badge. Then we have an XR8 and FPV can have as many GT models as they want within diff specs for the range....

[Nikked]

No heritage GS?


Ask the Xy owners whom are selling them for a mint...

[Dr Smith]

What could be stripped out of an FPV-based GS to get a Ford XR8 and get it to within say $2.5K of an XR6T?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by russellw

I wouldn't disagree with your logic but rather the willingness of FoA to take that punt - looking back to 2008 which is the last year I have full Ford/Holden performance sales breakdowns, the XR8 pair were doing about 150 units per month. The comparable Holden models were running at about 840 so they have actually dropped a bit since.

I know there was fierce debate around whether an NA version of the Coyote would find it's way into an XR8 but as you pointed out, the market space ended up reserved for FPV with their GS.

In one way it was a good call. There is undoubtedly a price premium (read extra profit) from that approach; it helps FPV recoup the substantial investment in Coyote engineering and a percentage of those 131 buyers ended up in a GS anyway.

Indeed, looking at the 2010 numbers for XR8, the 7 months when they were still on sale yielded all of 474 combined sales or 68 a month in round figures. GS sales are running around the 45/month mark so it seems a reasonable argument given that the GS is basically an XR with an FPV badge.

Cheers
Russ

Exactly right Russ, I'm sure that Ford had some quite spirited and passionate debates internally about which way to go
and IMO, they could have gone either direction but chose FPV GS to preserve pricing, it also means they can revisit an
XR8 in the future if they want to..

Would NA XR8 sales and even a G8E have given enough sales oomph in a low market?
Is it better to wait until a sales recovery happens before trying niche products?
I think it's also a case of being seen as responsible and maximizing resources
ahead of any government funding decisions, priority one is viability of Falcon/Territory.

Regain as many fleet sales as possible with EcoLPI and some Ecoboost, try to win
new customers with TDCI Territory, Ecoboost Falcon, indeed SZ Territory and FG II refreshes.
All odf this points to doing the basic and necessary before even considering performance variants.

[russellw]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

What could be stripped out of an FPV-based GS to get a Ford XR8 and get it to within say $2.5K of an XR6T?

In a word PROFIT - there isn't much else to strip out of a GS that isn't already in the XR kit - which really emphasises my point about why they went that way. I'll do a direct feature comparison shortly but if I find more than set of stripes, some bigger wheels and a couple of FPV badges then I'll be a surprised man.

Cheers
Russ

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by russellw

I wouldn't disagree with your logic but rather the willingness of FoA to take that punt - looking back to 2008 which is the last year I have full Ford/Holden performance sales breakdowns, the XR8 pair were doing about 150 units per month. The comparable Holden models were running at about 840 so they have actually dropped a bit since.

I know there was fierce debate around whether an NA version of the Coyote would find it's way into an XR8 but as you pointed out, the market space ended up reserved for FPV with their GS.

In one way it was a good call. There is undoubtedly a price premium (read extra profit) from that approach; it helps FPV recoup the substantial investment in Coyote engineering and a percentage of those 131 buyers ended up in a GS anyway.

Indeed, looking at the 2010 numbers for XR8, the 7 months when they were still on sale yielded all of 474 combined sales or 68 a month in round figures. GS sales are running around the 45/month mark so it seems a reasonable argument given that the GS is basically an XR with an FPV badge.

Cheers
Russ

So the old 5.4 XR8 was outselling the GS by about 50%... GeeSh.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Actually the supercharged 4.6L was cast iron.
And the Supercharged 5.4 was only alloy in the GT, and 2011-onwards Shelby

That's production engines, I was talking about FPV building an alternate S/C 4.6 to the 5.4 Boss.
An alloy block for the 4.6 has been available since the 1993.

[russellw]

Back when launched the structure was thus:

XR6 Manual $ 39,990
XR8 Manual $ 45,490
XR6T Manual $ 45,490

Thus there was no price differential between the turbo and V8 and both were $5,500 dearer than the XR6.

FG2 really didn't change that much - the price reductions really only bought each model back to the original launch pricing.

By way of comparison, at launch (2010) the GS sedan had an RRP of $56,990 - let's say $10,500 more than either the XR8 or XR6T although the auto was a no cost option (it cost $1,500 in the others) and $16,000 more than an XR6.

The table below picks out the main differences between the two models (XR6T and FPV GS) for current models. You can't quite cover all the gaps between the XR6T and the GS but the things that can't be purchased from your Ford dealer (like stripes, badges and some trim bits) don't add to much anyway on a like-for-like basis.



The things you can option add up to $2,424 to bring your XR6T up to the same spec as the GS and thus, the raw difference is $8,000 of premium for the FPV cachet (a marketing term that translates to "gullible enough to think the badge matters").

Some of that is in the engine obviously but just how much is debatable. I'd suggest that if the early XR8 could be sold at a matching price to the XR6T and the imported bits for the engines were coming in with the $AU at 60 cents, then the Coyote engine probably costs less. Except for the development budget of course!

Sensibly, you'd throw the luxo pack onto your XR anyway - gain dual zone climate, the 19's, premium audio, SatNav, leather and the reverse camera for the miserable sum of $4,500 and have more fruit than the GS as well as about $5k (less the engine uplift) for fuel.

Cheers
Russ

[Brazen]

I guess what is frustrating for me living far away from a capital city in the land of farming and mining - every second Aussie car is a V8. And with the best V8 ever not being available to Ford dealers out here it just seems like such a waste especially when we pay full retail out here for everything.

I then jump on Carsales and see 10 grand off GS in major cities and selling well below the rate of what the 5.4 did - it just seems the strategy of the V8 being FPV only as a big mistake.

With rising cattle and sheep prices and mining pumping money in country towns it just seems that Ford could really take on the Holden V8 out here instead of trying to scrabble over the few V8 city buyers. the VE is now 6 years old, so many blokes out here would be really willing to jump ship into something different (and far superior) instead they go into town on a Saturday before a pub meal and trade in their 100,000km Holden V8 on a new one.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Gee, they are getting real high tech now aren't they, a cam in block pushrod VVT.

clearly not an engineer are we??

[MrZ]

How come the GS doesn't have stability control but the XR6T does? It's illegal to sell a car in VIC without it...?

Also why does the GS have less airbags than the XR6T?

[burnz]

Originally Posted by Davez621

How come the GS doesn't have stability control but the XR6T does? It's illegal to sell a car in VIC without it...?

Also why does the GS have less airbags than the XR6T?

that can't be true could it? it's a passive system not a primary one..