Australian cars...is "good enough", good enough...?

[sanchoXB]

Originally Posted by davway

Is good enough really good enough?
No.
Why do you think no one else wants to buy our home built cars.

HSV's are exported to europe as a Vauxhall and to the US as a Pontiac.

[BLUEYBA]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Oh come on guys, its not 100% Ford NA's fault. You can hardly justify extra expenditure for this market.....I think both GM and FoA have been lucky to get what they have. The GFC has smartened up Ford so we will see what happens next, there is buckleys chance of things continuing as they do now.

I don't expect them to continue the way they are but I do expect a vehicle from Ford that is given enough funding that will come up to the standard that we expect. When you look at all those cheap imports, they have other markets other than Australia, they can spread the costs over those different markets but when it come to the Falcon at the moment it doesn't have that luxury. So its competeing against cars that are worldwide when its only a local and thats why the all new Falcon in 2015-2016 is the important one as thats when it become part of the Ford family. All I hope that Ford Aus does all the work on on the GRWD.

[BLUEYBA]

Originally Posted by davway

Is good enough really good enough?
No.
Why do you think no one else wants to buy our home built cars.

I would normally say fair enough to that but from a Falcon point of view it has never been given the chance. I think Ford NA would have been embarrassed that Ford Aus were make cars that left their one for dead so they didn't let the Falcon get exported

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by BLUEYBA

I don't expect them to continue the way they are but I do expect a vehicle from Ford that is given enough funding that will come up to the standard that we expect. When you look at all those cheap imports, they have other markets other than Australia, they can spread the costs over those different markets but when it come to the Falcon at the moment it doesn't have that luxury. So its competeing against cars that are worldwide when its only a local and thats why the all new Falcon in 2015-2016 is the important one as thats when it become part of the Ford family. All I hope that Ford Aus does all the work on on the GRWD.

Point is though would you trust those "cheap imports" as you put it to do the job ALL AROUND Australia, not just the CBD.

Ford need to turn the tide or atleast show there is promise before 2015. Remember a all new platform is going to take 5 years min to be developed...I said in another thread that I am sure a decision will need to be made late this year or early next.

If things dont turn around then hope is fading long term, but yes, the last piece of the puzzle is GRWD...and something should have been said by now so it would stand to reason that its going to be a massive decision for Ford global as it impacts many markets.

[divine_afg]

If the Europeans and the Japs where as cheap here as they are overseas, Ford and Holden Will upgrade the features and pay attention to detail.

Dad had BMW 5 Series 1999, over ten years old the quality and features on that car is way infront of most models offered by Ford & Holden today. A mate from work bought 2011 Honda Accord (Not Euro) and this thing put Locals to shame and its roomy aswell.

We can debate as much as we want, if you want your voices heard write letter to ford and tell them what you think about the product and your wants/needs. If they received letters from most of their customers I am sure they would listen.

Goverment and its taxes are partly to blame aswell, if the europeans where affordable on average wage you would see Ford and Holden up the ante.

I hope when Ford wakes up, its not too late.

[Ford_The_Win]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Point is though would you trust those "cheap imports" as you put it to do the job ALL AROUND Australia, not just the CBD.

But that is beside the point. Most Australians are latte-sipping yuppies in capital cities. They don't travel around the outback or go bush-bashing. Hence the Mazda 3 selling like hotcakes.

[BLUEYBA]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Point is though would you trust those "cheap imports" as you put it to do the job ALL AROUND Australia, not just the CBD.

Ford need to turn the tide or atleast show there is promise before 2015. Remember a all new platform is going to take 5 years min to be developed...I said in another thread that I am sure a decision will need to be made late this year or early next.

If things dont turn around then hope is fading long term, but yes, the last piece of the puzzle is GRWD...and something should have been said by now so it would stand to reason that its going to be a massive decision for Ford global as it impacts many markets.

When I mean cheap imports I mean Hyundai, KIA. I guess I shouldn't have used cheap imports. Maybe just imports.
Totally agree about Ford needing to turn things around sooner rather than later. At the moment you'd think they would do anything to get people in the door to buy Falcons.
We will never really know where they are up to in terms of GRWD. They will tell everyone when they are ready to and not a second sooner whether we like it or not.

[SteveJH]

This might hurt, but for those who are suggesting a Falcon based product for GRWD and Lincoln.

Considering Lincoln is supposed to be a premium marque, how would E8 compare to an Upgraded DEW98 platform as used by Jaguar in the XF?

[Polyal]

Its would be all new, I dont think anyone here is pretending that any falcon platform is a good enough base for the "new" breed of Lincolns that I think Mullaly is after.

Although remember the talk of Lincoln coming to AUS? perhaps that was another way of saying bye Falcon and hello Lincoln...spanner in the works?..hehe

Has there been any news of Cadillac? Probably another GM good news story of the week.

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Has there been any news of Cadillac? Probably another GM good news story of the week.

What, did they put an even bigger engine in that CTS-V?

One of those things would be Awesome, it got into the 7 minute bracket around the 'ring in Germany.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by SteveJH

This might hurt, but for those who are suggesting a Falcon based product for GRWD and Lincoln.

Considering Lincoln is supposed to be a premium marque, how would E8 compare to an Upgraded DEW98 platform as used by Jaguar in the XF?

The main difference as I understand it is the IRS in DEW98 is a premium double wishbone unit with alloy parts. The front end of the E8, as we are well aware, has been updated to a high end unit with forged alloy A-arms and virtual pivot geometry. The two (E8 and DEW98) may be a lot closer than you think and at the end, it may just come down to a simple amalgamation of systems.

[BLUEYBA]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Its would be all new, I dont think anyone here is pretending that any falcon platform is a good enough base for the "new" breed of Lincolns that I think Mullaly is after.

Although remember the talk of Lincoln coming to AUS? perhaps that was another way of saying bye Falcon and hello Lincoln...spanner in the works?..hehe

Has there been any news of Cadillac? Probably another GM good news story of the week.

It wouldn't surprise me if they bring in Lincoln as rebadged Fairlanes and LTDs

[2011G6E]

Another point is "how much more "funding" do Ford/Holden need to produce a truly world-class car?"

For many decades they were protected by criminal levels of tariffs and import duties on imported cars...especially on larger cars that would have threatened the dominance of Kingswood/Commodore and Falcon in Australia.
Many cars were, in the most protectionist days, twice the cost they were overseas, even right hand drive ones that didn't need massive engineering to get them here.
Now that tariffs have dropped...somewhat...we are still seeing much higher prices for cars from, say, the USA than they are charged over there, especially seeing as how most of them build the RHD models in cheaper cost-of-production countries like Mexico, etc.

Then there is the problem Australia faces of being about the only country in the world which won't allow widespread use of imported RHD cars on the roads...every other country doesn't have an issue with it, but here it's the end of the world and restricted to old cars and classics.
Well...I suppose it could very well be for local manufacturing of cars if they allowed that.

So for years Australian makers operated in a closed shop, with a captive market that they knew would just fork out for whatever was thrown at them. They would have, to be blunt, got all the funding they need over the decades of protection from the big bad world and overcharging for local product. If they can't spend a few dollars now to keep up with the expected world standards of car design and interior appointments, then that's their funeral, and one day soon the big boys from head office in the USA might give them the tap on the shoulder...

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by BLUEYBA

I would normally say fair enough to that but from a Falcon point of view it has never been given the chance. I think Ford NA would have been embarrassed that Ford Aus were make cars that left their one for dead so they didn't let the Falcon get exported

Yeah cos Dearborn would wonder how Ford Australia made that 5.0L V8

[Flat Top]

some of these comments in my view are a little unfair. Both Holden and Ford have made good progress on their overall quality as the model updates come along and they can engineer Quality into the car. As compared to say VW .
The structural Build , colour control and drive train are World Class. The Trim quality issues are ongoing for all car companies and both Holden and Ford and for that matter Toyota are better than most not as good as BMW mercedes etc. But all these goals are on going.
design , well thats another issue??? Holden and Toyota are world class , Ford is struggling with Old platforms. We are all waiting to see what happens next??
in the meantime i look forward to the new LPG falcon and will probably buy a ute with the liquid gas.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Polyal

If the falcon had the opportunity to spread its wings (love pun) then its budget would increase which in turn increases quality and content...in theory.

If they thought they could make a buck out of it, they would.

For the money nothing comes close to the performance, space, practicability and versatility of the falcon.

Smaller cars have closed the performance gap significantly, while still getting good economy. Space... who needs it unless you're in the habit of being your mates taxi driver. Versatility? The boot is too shallow to fit anything other than a suitcase laying down, so you try to stick it on the backseat but cant get it through the door because of the size of the opening.

I'll stick with a hatchback.

[SB076]

Originally Posted by Flat Top

some of these comments in my view are a little unfair. Both Holden and Ford have made good progress on their overall quality as the model updates come along and they can engineer Quality into the car. As compared to say VW .
The structural Build , colour control and drive train are World Class. The Trim quality issues are ongoing for all car companies and both Holden and Ford and for that matter Toyota are better than most not as good as BMW mercedes etc. But all these goals are on going.
design , well thats another issue??? Holden and Toyota are world class , Ford is struggling with Old platforms. We are all waiting to see what happens next??
in the meantime i look forward to the new LPG falcon and will probably buy a ute with the liquid gas.

I think being a Ford forum you will find most people have knowledge/experience both good and bad with Ford products. Hence the reason why we seem to be a bit hard on them sometimes.

I have owned two new Fords (GT and a G6ET) and neither let me down both cars were great and interestingly enough, when compared to other vehicles purchased by friends or family members have performed well by comparison. To give you an example I know of a Passat CC (2010) and Mercedes S (approx. 2001) class both had electrical greminlins and spent time on flat tops and spent time at the dealer ship being repaired. The S class actually by the owners admission has been a bit of a lemon

I have no doubt that there are lots of areas Ford oz need to improve. However when you look at the cars we have (both Ford and Holden) and look at our population and realise we have unique cars manufactured for a small customer base, where else in the world can you get what we have here?

[anto]

Originally Posted by divine_afg

If the Europeans and the Japs where as cheap here as they are overseas, Ford and Holden Will upgrade the features and pay attention to detail.

Dad had BMW 5 Series 1999, over ten years old the quality and features on that car is way infront of most models offered by Ford & Holden today. A mate from work bought 2011 Honda Accord (Not Euro) and this thing put Locals to shame and its roomy aswell.

We can debate as much as we want, if you want your voices heard write letter to ford and tell them what you think about the product and your wants/needs. If they received letters from most of their customers I am sure they would listen.

Goverment and its taxes are partly to blame aswell, if the europeans where affordable on average wage you would see Ford and Holden up the ante.

I hope when Ford wakes up, its not too late.

whenI bought a new FG they actually sentt out a questionare about what was good what was bad, what would you like in the future, were you happy with x y z etc...So they are actively seeking actual "buyers" impressions. All I really complained about was the lack of a sunroof option, but hey thats me. I was totaly happy with everything else on the car for the money it cost

[anto]

Originally Posted by b0son

If they thought they could make a buck out of it, they would.



Smaller cars have closed the performance gap significantly, while still getting good economy. Space... who needs it unless you're in the habit of being your mates taxi driver. Versatility? The boot is too shallow to fit anything other than a suitcase laying down, so you try to stick it on the backseat but cant get it through the door because of the size of the opening.

I'll stick with a hatchback.

who needs it ? how about a family of four who on occasion like to go on a long trip and want a safe large car but not an SUV ?

the door openings on the FG are fine, but Id agree the BA/AU were terrible in that regard.

[divine_afg]

Originally Posted by anto

whenI bought a new FG they actually sentt out a questionare about what was good what was bad, what would you like in the future, were you happy with x y z etc...So they are actively seeking actual "buyers" impressions. All I really complained about was the lack of a sunroof option, but hey thats me. I was totaly happy with everything else on the car for the money it cost

I'm pleased to know this, Sunroof would be great addition in option list.
I love them, wonder why its not offered.

[blk6t]

Good post, I was thinking asbout this on the weekend when car shopping for the missus and myself, yes buying 2 cars....

For me its a new FPV, just need to find the right one for the right price, but I am an enthusiast and I consider enthusiasts to sit outside the "norm".

From my wifes perspective we looked at Mazda, Ford, Subaru & VW. To be honest, when we sat in a Falcon G6E and it felt less equipped than the cheaper slightly smaller cars that we looked at. The first thing my wife said was "It's WAY too big", and i'm sure most female drivers would say the same.

We have settled on a brand new SP25, 6sp manual, and after a test drive the car felt really tight, quiet, well built and very well equipped. It makes me wonder, why should people buy a large Falcodore for nearly $40k when they can walk away with a slightly smaller $30k new car that is more equipped????

The average Ma and Pa with 2 kids, mortgage with rising costs of living don't care about powerful engines or RWD, something that we enthusiasts LOVE and appreciate and I am sure most will continue to buy V8's even if petrol hits $2/litre...I know I will.

If it were up to me, the FG Falcon would have been:
- Slightly smaller (closer to Mondeo size)
- Lighter
- No XT
- Better equipped
- The G series would have been G6 / G6E / G6ET
- The XR series would have been XR6 / XR6E / XR6T

I think there is a greater divide between affordable cars and luxury cars, the Falcon IMHO sits put there where middle class consideres too expensive and where the more wealthier considers cheap. The Falcon needs to shift to a smaller, cheaper car with RWD and it would tick alot more boxes on purchasers lists.

I have too much thinking time on the train trips to and from work...

[blk6t]

Good post, I was thinking asbout this on the weekend when car shopping for the missus and myself, yes buying 2 cars....

For me its a new FPV, just need to find the right one for the right price, but I am an enthusiast and I consider enthusiasts to sit outside the "norm".

From my wifes perspective we looked at Mazda, Ford, Subaru & VW. To be honest, when we sat in a Falcon G6E and it felt less equipped than the cheaper slightly smaller cars that we looked at. The first thing my wife said was "It's WAY too big", and i'm sure most female drivers would say the same.

We have settled on a brand new SP25, 6sp manual, and after a test drive the car felt really tight, quiet, well built and very well equipped. It makes me wonder, why should people buy a large Falcodore for nearly $40k when they can walk away with a slightly smaller $30k new car that is more equipped????

The average Ma and Pa with 2 kids, mortgage with rising costs of living don't care about powerful engines or RWD, something that we enthusiasts LOVE and appreciate and I am sure most will continue to buy V8's even if petrol hits $2/litre...I know I will.

If it were up to me, the FG Falcon would have been:
- Slightly smaller (closer to Mondeo size)
- Lighter
- No XT
- Better equipped
- The G series would have been G6 / G6E / G6ET
- The XR series would have been XR6 / XR6E / XR6T

I think there is a greater divide between affordable cars and luxury cars, the Falcon IMHO sits put there where middle class consideres too expensive and where the more wealthier considers cheap. The Falcon needs to shift to a smaller, cheaper car with RWD and it would tick alot more boxes on purchasers lists.

I have too much thinking time on the train trips to and from work...

[divine_afg]

Originally Posted by blk6t

Good post, I was thinking asbout this on the weekend when car shopping for the missus and myself, yes buying 2 cars....

For me its a new FPV, just need to find the right one for the right price, but I am an enthusiast and I consider enthusiasts to sit outside the "norm".

From my wifes perspective we looked at Mazda, Ford, Subaru & VW. To be honest, when we sat in a Falcon G6E and it felt less equipped than the cheaper slightly smaller cars that we looked at. The first thing my wife said was "It's WAY too big", and i'm sure most female drivers would say the same.

We have settled on a brand new SP25, 6sp manual, and after a test drive the car felt really tight, quiet, well built and very well equipped. It makes me wonder, why should people buy a large Falcodore for nearly $40k when they can walk away with a slightly smaller $30k new car that is more equipped????

The average Ma and Pa with 2 kids, mortgage with rising costs of living don't care about powerful engines or RWD, something that we enthusiasts LOVE and appreciate and I am sure most will continue to buy V8's even if petrol hits $2/litre...I know I will.

If it were up to me, the FG Falcon would have been:
- Slightly smaller (closer to Mondeo size)
- Lighter
- No XT
- Better equipped
- The G series would have been G6 / G6E / G6ET
- The XR series would have been XR6 / XR6E / XR6T

I think there is a greater divide between affordable cars and luxury cars, the Falcon IMHO sits put there where middle class consideres too expensive and where the more wealthier considers cheap. The Falcon needs to shift to a smaller, cheaper car with RWD and it would tick alot more boxes on purchasers lists.

I have too much thinking time on the train trips to and from work...

Some valid points you raised there, can you please elaborate more on your reason for settling on Sp25 and what equipment is missing on Falcon.

I will be buying car for Mrs soon aswell.

Cheers
H

[2011G6E]

"Making progress on quality issues"...goals for better build quality are "ongoing"...

I walk outside to my G6E and see a badge on the front guard saying "50th Anniversary"...

Ford (and Holden) aren't some new players to the game from a developing region where you could excuse lack of QC and fit and finish issues until they get thier act together...however, if you've been continuously building a car for half a century, one would think you had a fairly good idea of how to keep problems under control before they slip through to the public...

[blk6t]

Originally Posted by divine_afg

Some valid points you raised there, can you please elaborate more on your reason for settling on Sp25 and what equipment is missing on Falcon.

I will be buying car for Mrs soon aswell.

Cheers
H

I wanted the missus to get the XR6 but we got the SP25 which came standard with the 6sp, sat nav, 10 speaker bose sound system, dual zone climate and we got the added leather. All that for less than the XR6 with basic features.

[dimka100]

Here goes my 2 cents … I was not born here in this country, I migrated here ages ago and hence I do not have the “standard” Australian attitude to things …

When I look at cars, I don’t just look at something that will get me from point A to point B, but something that I will also enjoy driving. I’m not a brand whore and has never been one, hence I do not look at the badge, instead I look at what the car has to offer to me from based on my preferred criteria.

Looking at the Australian car market I can see that cars are ridiculously overpriced here, especially once you start going up higher up the price range … this leads to a market that is very different to what you may see in many other countries. I also believe this massive price disparity alters many products (i.e. cars models of various brands) from their originally intended market target audience envisaged by the manufacturer which as a result leads to a market position that is much harder to understand/analyse.

When I look at Ford (Falcadore) or Holden (commonhore) I can see two good products which seem to have found a unique position in the Australian market by offering what other makers simply cannot or do not in the same price range. There is no point comparing a Ford or a Holden to 100K+ Euro products as they simply are not positioned to compete against them in the Australian market. When comparing Ford/Holden in their respective price segments then things don’t actually look so bad, what does however become a factor is the criteria that each buyer uses to evaluate a product when purchasing a vehicle.

Here I will give an example:
If large size, great performance, and handling are your top criteria to evaluate a car then the Holden/Ford have it in spades. There are simply no other products under 60K that will offer you the same size, engine performance and handling levels from Japanse or Euro offerings. (here I’m talking about the XR6turbo, SS …)

If large size, cheap purchasing price, cheap running costs, safety, and a workhorse are your top criteria to evaluate a car then again Holden/Ford have this in spades. In the 30K price bracket the cheap XR6 or similar deals are great as you get a very large car, very safe car, cheap to run car (maintenance), a car that will do 500 thousand Kms (taxi), and generally a great workhorse for people living in remote country areas ….

However if what you want is super fuel economy, superb interior build finish and quality, small size, and latest gizmos then yes you are better off buying something made in Japan or similar …

Ford and Holden have very finite budgets which on a world scale are miniscule … you just simply cannot expect them to deliver you every element of a car in spades and yet maintain a cheap price (Australian market wise) … Japanese manufacturers sacrifice in size, performance, handling, driver involvement, and so forth to achieve quality, design, efficiency … Australian manufacturers sacrifice the opposite mostly … and I hope they will never stop!!!

[stang65]

Fully agree with the above although i think the Fiesta,Focus and Mondeo aren`t that bad and are equal to alot of the asian imports.

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by dimka100

Here goes my 2 cents … I was not born here in this country, I migrated here ages ago and hence I do not have the “standard” Australian attitude to things …

When I look at cars, I don’t just look at something that will get me from point A to point B, but something that I will also enjoy driving. I’m not a brand whore and has never been one, hence I do not look at the badge, instead I look at what the car has to offer to me from based on my preferred criteria.

Looking at the Australian car market I can see that cars are ridiculously overpriced here, especially once you start going up higher up the price range … this leads to a market that is very different to what you may see in many other countries. I also believe this massive price disparity alters many products (i.e. cars models of various brands) from their originally intended market target audience envisaged by the manufacturer which as a result leads to a market position that is much harder to understand/analyse.

When I look at Ford (Falcadore) or Holden (commonhore) I can see two good products which seem to have found a unique position in the Australian market by offering what other makers simply cannot or do not in the same price range. There is no point comparing a Ford or a Holden to 100K+ Euro products as they simply are not positioned to compete against them in the Australian market. When comparing Ford/Holden in their respective price segments then things don’t actually look so bad, what does however become a factor is the criteria that each buyer uses to evaluate a product when purchasing a vehicle.

Here I will give an example:
If large size, great performance, and handling are your top criteria to evaluate a car then the Holden/Ford have it in spades. There are simply no other products under 60K that will offer you the same size, engine performance and handling levels from Japanse or Euro offerings. (here I’m talking about the XR6turbo, SS …)

If large size, cheap purchasing price, cheap running costs, safety, and a workhorse are your top criteria to evaluate a car then again Holden/Ford have this in spades. In the 30K price bracket the cheap XR6 or similar deals are great as you get a very large car, very safe car, cheap to run car (maintenance), a car that will do 500 thousand Kms (taxi), and generally a great workhorse for people living in remote country areas ….

However if what you want is super fuel economy, superb interior build finish and quality, small size, and latest gizmos then yes you are better off buying something made in Japan or similar …

Ford and Holden have very finite budgets which on a world scale are miniscule … you just simply cannot expect them to deliver you every element of a car in spades and yet maintain a cheap price (Australian market wise) … Japanese manufacturers sacrifice in size, performance, handling, driver involvement, and so forth to achieve quality, design, efficiency … Australian manufacturers sacrifice the opposite mostly … and I hope they will never stop!!!

Bang on the money there!

As for some of the rest of the comments...

[P6LTD351]

This may sound silly to some, but the 'no sunroof option' is the reason why I don't have a new Falcon sitting in my driveway. I have the cash to buy a new car, I've been ready to buy a new Ford since 2009, but I want one with the lot from FACTORY. Once again Ford misses the boat. And please, no excuse like "they didn't sell many to warrant the cost". That's the defeatist attitude that has seen our wagon, XR8 and Fairlanes disappear. I hope FGII have a factory sunroof option.

[stang65]

But aren`t factory sunroofs installed by a third party now for both Holden and Ford?