Opinions on speeding fine.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by Rodp

The ticket doesn't provide exact co-ordinates of where the 'alleged' offence occurred. If it were to say John St, that could indicate a position either side of the 80 zone. I'd suggest the court in that case would likely side with the cop.

This is my opinion only and should not be taken for legal advice:

The legal system does not work like that, for this paticular offence the burden of proof lies with the balance of probabilities.

Before giving evidence, Naddis would swear to tell the truth, the court then MUST make an assumption that Naddis is telling the truth. If the prosecutor does not contest, then fine. If the prosecutor presents a version which conflicts with Naddis evidence, then the court weighs up the balance of probablities.

On the balance of probabilites the court would probably side with Naddis, a police officer would have pulled over hundreds of cars in their career, the court would be quite suspicious if the officer could recall when giving evidence with absolute clarity on the events for that particular roadside stop.

Naddis on the other hand would have rarely been pulled over and so he would on the balance of probabilties be able to give a more accurate version of events.

One of the worst things to happen to the legal system are shows like CSI and things like that, people now assume you need DNA evidence, expert eye witnesses, tracking devices to be able to defend a charge, this is not the case at all.

Personally I think they might withdraw the charge before the hearing if you challenge it, if not, it should only go for about 15 mins.

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by Brazen

You have 300m after you pass the speed limit sign to slow down.

That's only a guideline for speed camera operators. They don't HAVE to apply this rule and the courts will apply the LETTER of the law, not the 'spirit' of the law (ie apply it as it's written, not as it's intended).

[rancidpunx]

If he was pinged between the "80 Ahead" and the first "80" sign I would contest it, but it will be a fight. If he was Pinged between the first "80" and second "80" then I would take it on the chin.

Contesting it will come down to who they believe. You will say "I was not in the 80 zone", the cop will say "you were" and that he is trained to use the device and so he did so accordingly.
If the cop car had video rolling, thats evidence that will work for you and against the policeman as it will give you some reference on the road to start proving your case. Im sure you will need to call on some experts to then measure roads etc and work out travelling speeds. Good luck if you choose this path, more people need to stand up for themselves in this country.

The 80 ahead signs mean you have to be doing 80 by the time you reach the change of speed sign. It also means the cops can get you 1 metre in the change of speed zone disregarding their own detection guidelines for the more than 100mtr after a speed change sign.

I believe that there will be more and more "Ahead signs" so there can be no argument with how long you have to slow down after a speed sign and it also allows for detection straight away.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by aussie muscle

That's only a guideline for speed camera operators. They don't HAVE to apply this rule and the courts will apply the LETTER of the law, not the 'spirit' of the law (ie apply it as it's written, not as it's intended).

The Australian Standards are specifically referenced in the legislation, if they dont follow the guidlines they havn't followed the legislation.

I am comfortable where I stand on the matter, although never taken it to court so I guess that is where is stands and falls. When you have been in trouble enough times with the law you become interested in this kind of stuff


And to clarify I am not suggesting barreling through the speed limit changes for 300m, simple because other road users and pedestrians may assume you are slowing down and so pull out in front of you etc, its all about driving defensively.

[EgoFG]

Years ago it was said that a speed limit had to be posted and gazetted before it could be enforced.
ie a sign, and publication.
I would suggest that how it is published ("gazetted") is where the line would be on the road, and it would likely be somewhere between the two 80k signs.

I my mind I have always seen the first sign as the speed limit and the second as a reminder.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by rancidpunx

If he was pinged between the "80 Ahead" and the first "80" sign I would contest it, but it will be a fight. If he was Pinged between the first "80" and second "80" then I would take it on the chin.

Contesting it will come down to who they believe. You will say "I was not in the 80 zone", the cop will say "you were" and that he is trained to use the device and so he did so accordingly.
If the cop car had video rolling, thats evidence that will work for you and against the policeman as it will give you some reference on the road to start proving your case. Im sure you will need to call on some experts to then measure roads etc and work out travelling speeds. Good luck if you choose this path, more people need to stand up for themselves in this country.

The 80 ahead signs mean you have to be doing 80 by the time you reach the change of speed sign. It also means the cops can get you 1 metre in the change of speed zone disregarding their own detection guidelines for the more than 100mtr after a speed change sign.

I believe that there will be more and more "Ahead signs" so there can be no argument with how long you have to slow down after a speed sign and it also allows for detection straight away.

As far as I am aware those 'ahead' signs mean absolutely nothing from a speed enforcement perspective, speed detection devices cannot be used within 300m of the normal speed limit sign.

As for the he says/she says argument. The court makes assumption that both parties are telling the truth, a person's uniform does not make thier truth more 'true'.

Actually it can work against the officer as a normal 'otherwise law-abiding' person will probably remember an incident better than an officer, as the incident has had more effect on that individual, whereas the officer probably never thought of Naddis again.

Its also important to remember details of the incident, colour of the officers car, make model, was it an Omega or SS? etc. I also try to think of what was playing on the radio etc. The court likes even just a little detail as it shows you remembering the event.

Go on Google Maps, go to streetview, and look for signs, trees, streetlamps etc which you remember being next to the officer or approximately, then go to aerial view and map out the distances - its pretty simple.

[steve.zissou]

there is a distance requirement in nsw.

Why do you think they moved all the speed signs further out recently - people were getting off fines). (heaps of examples - like the end of the F3 at hornsby)

[davenl5l]

fight it you should be able to get a scale map of the area from vic roads showing all distances.measure and mark clearly all distances .stand up in court and say not guilty and when they see you are prepared (with any witnesses that were in your car)to fight for your rights it should go away.i have done this twice in sa once for speeding and once for speed dangerous on my harley got off both times and yes i was innocent but you have to be prepared to fight them i have only ever paid a fine if i did the crime

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by Brazen

You have 300m after you pass the speed limit sign to slow down.

E.g.

If you are in a 100 zone and enter a 80 zone you have 300m AFTER you pass the 80 sign to slow down to 80.

Take it to court, open and shut case.

AS 2898.1 – 2003 Radar speed detection – Functional requirements and definitions
AS2898.2 – 2003 Radar speed detection – Operational procedures
AS4691.1 – 2003 Laser-based speed detection devices – Definitions and device requirements
AS4691.2 – 2003 Laser-based speed detection devices – Operational procedures

Pretty well known standards especially by the police which makes me wonder if this was a trap on purpose and simply hoping you cop it on the chin like every motorist before you. As an aside you also have 100m BEFORE an increase in the speed limit sign to increase your speed, lose count of how many bozos you see wait until they actually reach the sign before speeding up.

Never heard that one before...a speed zone starts at the speed sign...once you pass it you have to be doing the speed it notes.

Speed zones on the road are like the ones we have on the railway tracks...if you are coming up to a speed restriction or signposted corner on the track...say 60kph instead of the usual 80kph...you have to be doing the speed it says by the time you reach the sign. When you pass a board saying to go back to the normal track speed, you have to set the counter and wait until the entire length of the train has left the lower speed area before speeding up. Of course, if we are doing even one or two kph over the limit and something happens like a derailment or hit someone on a level crossing, it's rather more serious than a fine...you'll most likely be sacked. Knowing that sure makes you watch the speed signs...

Same on the roads...if you pass that 80kph sign doing 100kph and only then start slowing down, you really have no defense for your actions at all...you could see the 80kph sign coming up, and should have had plenty of time to slow down to the speed limit for that area. The basic "standard" is that you can start speeding up after the sign for a higher limit, and by the time you reach the sign for a lower limit area, you have to be doing that speed. Good luck with that one in court if you try and twist some other sort of logic into it.

How does that logic of "300 meters to slow down" work in school zones? That would be an interesting one for you to stand up and argue in court...

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by Brazen

You cannot be issued a ticket for travelling at the speed you were at before the sign for a distance 300m. End of story.

That is why we put the speed limit signs so far out of towns, why roadworkers put roadwork limits 300m before the roadworks etc. You are given 300m to do that speed. In respect to speed enforcement the 80 sign is saying '80kmh zone 300m ahead'.

I doubt that is correct unless you have documentation.

The reason I say this is that many school zones are less then 300m long and the police can and do sit their with the radar/laser gun out.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Brazen

You have 300m after you pass the speed limit sign to slow down.

E.g.

If you are in a 100 zone and enter a 80 zone you have 300m AFTER you pass the 80 sign to slow down to 80.

So that would mean that nearly every infringement for speeding through a school zones could suly be contested. some would not be much more than 300m long?

Sounds suss..

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by Stefan

So that would mean that nearly every infringement for speeding through a school zones could suly be contested. some would not be much more than 300m long?

Sounds suss..

Technically it could be challenged, it depends on the circumstances.

if the school is in a 60 zone the school zone has to be at least 300m, if its in a 90 zone or higher the school zone has to stretch at least 300m either side of the school. 300 being the magic number in a lot of speed limits. I cant remember the last time I was involved with a school road design that the zone wasnt at least 400m-500m. Not all laws are about speeding fines, the school zone system is to alert motorists to the possibility of children pedestrians.

Some older schools have shorter zones but thats only in 50kmh and under speed zones - where the risk is a lot lower. Thankfully there hasnt been a recorded death in school zones for years.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by Brazen

if the school is in a 60 zone the school zone has to be at least 300m, if its in a 90 zone or higher the school zone has to stretch at least 300m either side of the school. 300 being the magic number in a lot of speed limits.

They must have missed this one, drive through it most days. No warning signs approaching it, just the 40 school zone bang on the start of it. It's in a 70 zone outside of school hours. If it's more than 300m long then it'd may be 305m and heading SW, the zone starts about 50m from the school.

So, would it be possible to be let off a speeding ticket heading SW doing 70kph right in front of the school during school hours? There's a similar one a few hundred meters city bound.

googlemaps.com and plug in clarke st and hume highway bass hill.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Never heard that one before...a speed zone starts at the speed sign...once you pass it you have to be doing the speed it notes.

But think about that for a second. You drive into a country town and the limit goes from 100-50 instantly. Must you slam on the brakes the instant you see or pass the sign?

I was under the impression there was a distance to adjust to speed 300m or whatever, probably dependant on the change of speed if common sense was used.

School zones is an interesting one. Some are very short, per haps they get around it because it is a time specific zone rather than a permanent change of speed.

[CustomG6ET]

if there was and 80 ahead sign by law you have to be doing 80 at the 80 km/p sign if he was pinged between the signs then the speed limit is 110 as long as your doing 80 at the sign posted your right. sounds kinda dodgy to me but really not surprising

[Dave3911]

Originally Posted by naddis01

The only other speeding fine I have had was in June 2008 (<15km/h over the speed limit back then). The only other fine I have had was for not displaying P plates which would have been back in 1999.

Don't pay the fine. You qualify for an official warning.

http://www.police.vic.gov.au/content...ument_id=10369

Write a letter and you're done. No court. No "what ifs". No internet lawyers.

Easy as pie.

[Buttnekid]

I think what Brazen is saying is that Australian Standards required 300 metre distance in which a speed is to be monitored so they cannot meet this obligation if they are within 300 m of the sign

[TheSneakiness]

What's this 300m ****?

From what I was taught and abide by is that once you pass the sign that's the limit.

I was also taught that say you're doing 60 and a sign comes up saying 80, you can accelerate to 80km/h before you go past the sign. Not too sure if that's correct so I don't tend to do so.

[2011G6E]

If you feel free to do 70kph through a school zone (as in the example given above) and only start to slow down after you pass the sign, you deserve to have your licence cut up in front of you and car impounded.

Far too many people have this mistaken idea that a speed zone doesn't start at the speed zone sign...but at some time afterwoods. The opposite is true as well...they think you can start speeding up as soon as you see the increased speed zone sign up ahead. If you "come into a small country town" yes...you have to slow from 100 to 50 for the town. You can see the town coming, you can see the speed sign coming. Slow down for it. People also whinge and say "But if I wait until the 100 sign to start speeding up, then I'll be inside the 100 zone still doing the lower limit until i accelerate up to it!"...yes, your point being? You can start moving up to the higher speed after you pass the sign and are into the area, the limit of which is marked by the sign, where that higher speed is permissable.
Same going back the other way...this is why you now see those signs saying "80k zone ahead", and then later come upon the actual 80 speed sign. It's to give you warning to slow down for the zone, and sometimes are used in areas where the new zone will be around a curve in the road or something.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

But think about that for a second. You drive into a country town and the limit goes from 100-50 instantly. Must you slam on the brakes the instant you see or pass the sign?

Maybe get your eyes checked if you can't see the sign far away enough to see a change in speed is coming up.

[FG50T]

Brazen that 300m thing doesn't exist. You must be doing the signed limit when you pass the sign. Some school zones are only 500m what would be the point

[Geez Louise]

Why is it every conversation about speeding or fines turns into a heated debate?

In my opinion, it is because perhaps the laws are not clear enough or people do not understand them well enough. At the end of the day, you speed, expect to get caught!

Wonder how many fines the Roadrunner gets hit with?

[2011G6E]

I think the laws are pretty clear...a speed sign indicates an area, from that point on, where you can do, as a maximum speed, whatever it says on the sign, and not before that point. How hard is that?

[Matty4]

Originally Posted by Geez Louise

Why is it every conversation about speeding or fines turns into a heated debate?

There's no heat in here.....yet.
So far everyone has expressed their opinion and point of view without resorting to comebacks and name-calling at all. It's one of the better debates about limits and fines I've seen for quite a while.

Keep it up everyone....

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Maybe get your eyes checked if you can't see the sign far away enough to see a change in speed is coming up.

Nothing wrong with my sight at all actually.... anything constructive to add perhaps?

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by Geez Louise

In my opinion, it is because perhaps the laws are not clear enough or people do not understand them well enough. At the end of the day, you speed, expect to get caught!

Wonder how many fines the Roadrunner gets hit with?

Well, has there been posted evidence in regards to the 100 / 300m rule already mentioned? I'm not a fan of grey areas in the rules, you either did or didn't follow the rules.

Roadrunner??? Nah, too fast for cop or camera... think they tested it on Mythbusters.

[bigsta]

Originally Posted by Matty4

My take on it is this;

I'd be contesting it too!!
Also, a couple of points need clearing up. Court costs are nowhere near $500, they are closer to $50. You don't have 300m after a speed change to slow down, you must be doing the posted speed as you pass the sign.

image

Court costs are decided by the magistrate, once you elect to take the matter to court the prescribed penalty is mute and a new penalty will be decided if you are convicted taking into account your sitch the offence and court time taken up, the judge may decide no fine but the points stand but its all up in the air.

about 10 years ago i challenged 2 fines over a year apart one speeding the other talking on the mobile while the car was parked but the motor running, lost both one the fine increased from $176 or something to $350 the other was from $120 odd to $500. But most of these matters are decided behind closed doors between the lawyers and the judge before the hearing, if you have a friend who is a lawyer get them to help out as you will not get that meeting if you represent yourself.

Im pretty sure you are right about the doing the speed once you pass the sign but there should be leeway before a speed trap is set up, and if its not in the standards it should be.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

Nothing wrong with my sight at all actually.... anything constructive to add perhaps?

Then why would one need to slam the breaks on when there is a change in speed from 100 to 50?

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Then why would one need to slam the breaks on when there is a change in speed from 100 to 50?

Well, because all speed signs are in prominent, highly visible, obvious positions, generally at the end of a straight so that everyone can see them from XXXm away with 20/20 sight.

Funny how when I did 700km on the weekend through several country towns there was 1 sign warning of a drop in limit (say from 100-50 like in Cowra just after a bend) yet 2-3 signs twice the size warning me of a speed camera in other locations.

[naddis01]

In an attempt to get things back on track and to clear up confusion I drew a dodgy 2 second paint picture.



The black rectangle is where we came to a stop. So we stopped in between the two posted speed signs with the 80 ahead back up the road. I can't be sure of its exact location and at the time I didn't take note of exactly where the police car was sitting. However I did watch him do a U turn and drive up to where I stopped and I would estimate I would have driven about 50m past him.

When he first indicated for me to stop I would estimate he was still about 100m ahead of me. So that would put me out of the 80 zone.


Just to attempt to answer some of the questions...

I don't see court as an option as I assume I would have to travel to Victoria for the hearing and I live about 460km from where it happened. So out would also be out of pocket for travel and accommodation.

If I write a letter to ask for a warning I can't deny doing it which basically rules out taking it to court.

The fine just says Sturt Hwy in tin pot town. My speed was detected by radar. I assume an in car one as he was leaning in the car when I first saw him. Then he took a couple of steps away from the car and directed me to stop.



At this stage I think I am leaning towards writing a letter asking for a warning and see what happens.