Police can legally use a mobile phone while driving

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Black_BF_mKII

As an Ambulance Paramedic I too am allowed to use a mobile phone when driving (at work). Though i've never understood quite why. The Police carry the same basic equipment we do, same radio, same mobile data terminal to receive jobs. We don't have a mobile phone for the ambulance, we receive all jobs through the MDT or via radio. Ambulances even have a push to talk button fitted where the clutch would normally be, so you can talk while having both hands on the wheel. So I really don't get why we are exempt. It's a dangerous practice and should be amended.

So you have never been in a situation where you needed to contact a person who was not on the ambo network such as SES or RFS etc. or a local to assist in navigation because the geniuses at 000 have sent you in the wrong direction and your satnav does not have the correct info for a country track?

Just in case your were not sure, the whole of Australia is not in Metro Melbourne......

[tweeked]

Dont have an issue with emergency services being allowed to use the phone. How much "training" do they recieve to be able to do it safely? Probably very little, because it really isnt that dangerous.

I would like to see the law relaxed with talking on the phone, but strengthened for reading texts, and made every harder still - like a 3 month immediate loss of licence - for writing texts while driving.

Those three are covered by the same rule, yet have hugely different true risks.

[Dalonian]

Originally Posted by flappist

So you have never been in a situation where you needed to contact a person who was not on the ambo network such as SES or RFS etc. or a local to assist in navigation because the geniuses at 000 have sent you in the wrong direction and your satnav does not have the correct info for a country track?

Just in case your were not sure, the whole of Australia is not in Metro Melbourne......

000 can do a call back then. Also, you also have a partner in the passenger seat who can make that call.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by tweeked

Dont have an issue with emergency services being allowed to use the phone. How much "training" do they recieve to be able to do it safely? Probably very little, because it really isnt that dangerous.

I would like to see the law relaxed with talking on the phone, but strengthened for reading texts, and made every harder still - like a 3 month immediate loss of licence - for writing texts while driving.

Those three are covered by the same rule, yet have hugely different true risks.

We are assessed throughout our 3 years of training on our ability to operate possible distractions (primarily radio and MDT) whilst driving. Added to that we do a hell of a lot more training and have more rigorous assessment than your average road user. At any time during our training our mentors can raise concerns regarding our driving and have a driver review panel process undertaken against us. In fact this can even be done when you are qualified if there is cause for concern.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Black_BF_mKII

000 can do a call back then. Also, you also have a partner in the passenger seat who can make that call.

What if he is in the back commencing resus? What's more important, 1mg of adrenaline IV or a phone call to let the resus team know you are coming in hot with an arrest?

[flappist]

Originally Posted by MercurySilver

good point
so voice command
all phone numbers used are stored and activated by saying a name or a number

saw a guy in a van when driving to work yesterday coming towards me
noticed he had something on the steering wheel
it was either a map or a paper
stupid thing was he had someone sitting beside him that couldve looked at the map or read him the paper
crazy
we've had two accidents in the barossa in the last two days
tourists and inattentive driving, pulling out into traffic thats doing 80 and 90kmh
its quite bad on the roads with them
you come around a corner doing 90 and they are just out of sight doing 60
they pull half over not indicating and driving in the bike lane trying to let you pass, but there isnt room as traffic is coming the other way, like trucks, and i dont really want to get to close to them!

I suspect it my be helpful if you actually understood how the voice command systems work and the purposes for which phones are used.

1) The voice system connects via blue tooth. Only one phone can be connected at a time so if there are more than one copper at the time the system may be connected to the wrong phone. Of course the copper not driving could answer if they were not busy looking after a prisoner or any of the other jobs that require 100% concentration.

2) A small station may have 10 vehicles and 40 coppers so that requires 400 connections BEFORE the vehicles can be used. Large stations would be even worse.

3) The incoming calls are made to the person not the car and usually not from the chair.

4) Outgoing calls can be to anyone at all so you would need to program the entire white and yellow pages as well as all the unlisted numbers in Australia. No phone can hold all that data.

5) If the bluetooth is activated it will grab any phone in range that it knows about interrupting conversations of coppers who are just near the car not driving it.

6) Untrained voice command is average at best and under stressful situations voices can change. This could be compensated by trainig the systems with various voices and accents for each officer BEFORE the car goes into service. Voice systems often ring wrong numbers as well.

So basically it would cost a fortune, waste enormous amounts of time, interfere with nore operations and be unreliable.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Black_BF_mKII

000 can do a call back then. Also, you also have a partner in the passenger seat who can make that call.

Seriously.

Is following a law designed to help stop morons killing themselves more important than medical care?

[Dalonian]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

What if he is in the back commencing resus? What's more important, 1mg of adrenaline IV or a phone call to let the resus team know you are coming in hot with an arrest?

Absolutely do treatment first, no one would disagree with that. Over here, we do have digital multichannel radio, so the driver can communicate here handsfree via secure radio.

And i'd say i've called in a job more than 1-2 times a year on average. So the investment in upgrading radio is definitely worth it.

Despite the driver training/experience we have, it's still a dangerous practice to use a handheld mobile and one that needs to be phased out. You can't say that driving code 1 to hospital with one hand on the wheel AND talking is safe. At least if you have 2 hands on the wheel while talking it is as safe as it will get.

[Dalonian]

Originally Posted by flappist

Seriously.

Is following a law designed to help stop morons killing themselves more important than medical care?

Nothing is more important than medical care. If you're still talking under the context of finding the job, before you administer the medical care, then either your partner can find further information via phone or you can do it via the dispatcher. I don't understand your point?

[geckoGT]

I disagree.

Most notification calls to hospital can be done by the person in the back or prior to departure leaving only the instance of major status changes in close proximity to hospital the only occasion time constraints do not allow other options. Any officer finding themselves having to call more than a few times a year is either a giant **** magnet or poorly prepared.

In my view the risk is not worth the millions it would cost in infrastructure, that money can be better used elsewhere to improve patient outcomes.

I am sorry but I see such policy and law changes for no benefit as needlessly making the job harder.

I think you will find large scale changes in your service when it becomes free and you see the increase in the number of call outs that QLD did when it went free. How many vehicles does your service have? Ours has increased massively since the abolishment of a contribution system just to keep up with the volume of work.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Black_BF_mKII

Nothing is more important than medical care. If you're still talking under the context of finding the job, before you administer the medical care, then either your partner can find further information via phone or you can do it via the dispatcher. I don't understand your point?

In most cases yes but not in the instance of a single officer response which the majority of rural QLD is, which is what Flappist us referring to.

Remember, law changes affect state wide, not just rural.

[Dalonian]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

I disagree.

Most notification calls to hospital can be done by the person in the back or prior to departure leaving only the instance of major status changes in close proximity to hospital the only occasion time constraints do not allow other options. Any officer finding themselves having to call more than a few times a year is either a giant **** magnet or poorly prepared.

In my view the risk is not worth the millions it would cost in infrastructure, that money can be better used elsewhere to improve patient outcomes.

I am sorry but I see such policy and law changes for no benefit as needlessly making the job harder.

I think we agree on most things, I agree with you that you shouldn't need to call in more than 1-2 times a year.

My point is that the law isn't relevant if you're the person in the back with the patient. Also, as I said in a previous post if you're still looking for the patient, the attendant/jockey can get that info. So again the driver talking while driving is not necessary.

I can only talk from a Vic context where we do have the encrypted radio. But still, 99.5% of the time, the attendant (i.e passenger) is doing the radio work anyway, so you still shouldn't see the driver talking on his/her phone (for work) as often as we do. I have no doubt that it is exploited by emergency workers.

[Dalonian]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

In most cases yes but not in the instance of a single officer response which the majority of rural QLD is, which is what Flappist us referring to.

Remember, law changes affect state wide, not just rural.

Absolutely different for single responders, again only speaking from a Vic context, but single responders do have a PTT foot button here.

I can't see how having a dedicated ambulance mobile phone paired to a Bluetooth system could be a problem. Back in my non-emergency patient transport days, every ambulance had it's own mobile phone.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Black_BF_mKII

I think we agree on most things, I agree with you that you shouldn't need to call in more than 1-2 times a year.

My point is that the law isn't relevant if you're the person in the back with the patient. Also, as I said in a previous post if you're still looking for the patient, the attendant/jockey can get that info. So again the driver talking while driving is not necessary.

I can only talk from a Vic context where we do have the encrypted radio. But still, 99.5% of the time, the attendant (i.e passenger) is doing the radio work anyway, so you still shouldn't see the driver talking on his/her phone (for work) as often as we do. I have no doubt that it is exploited by emergency workers.

That may be so, I have no doubt there are some bad eggs. If I see my student doing it he will have a metaphorical sore backside (no I am not actually allowed to kick it). Having said that I agree with you on that point, that is not something that requires law changes as it disadvantages officers when there is genuine requirement for such phone use. That is an issue for internal code of conduct policy such as is in place in QLD.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Black_BF_mKII

Absolutely different for single responders, again only speaking from a Vic context, but single responders do have a PTT foot button here.

I can't see how having a dedicated ambulance mobile phone paired to a Bluetooth system could be a problem. Back in my non-emergency patient transport days, every ambulance had it's own mobile phone.

Again, a cost issue for a large service and a luxury you will probably see disappear when your service doubles in size to keep up with the increased workload of a free service. Only our station officers and intensive care paramedic single response units have work phones and hands free.

[Smoke Pursuit]

I see a detective that lives near my home on one all the time in his SV6 Commodore (which should be fitted with bluetooth). 90% of cars and vans come with bluetooth, why cant they use that like the rest of us?

[dimka100]

Countless times have I seen police doing the following:
• Talking on a mobile while driving and it clearly was not an emergency situation as they were very relaxed
• Park in a No Stoping sign just to get some take away food
• Speed by more than 20kmph with no sirens (non under cover cars)
And my favourite …. Turning the siren on just to pass a congested traffic light and then turn it off and begin to cruise slowly, yeah they can’t be arsed to wait for the lights …

Everyone takes advantage of whatever perks their job enables them ... If you want more perks then work for the government!

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by DASH GT

I see a detective that lives near my home on one all the time in his SV6 Commodore (which should be fitted with bluetooth). 90% of cars and vans come with bluetooth, why cant they use that like the rest of us?

For you and Dimka. Lodge a complaint with their respective service and let their department policies sort it out. Lets leave the law there for legitimate use and let department code of conduct sort out the bad eggs.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Black_BF_mKII

Nothing is more important than medical care. If you're still talking under the context of finding the job, before you administer the medical care, then either your partner can find further information via phone or you can do it via the dispatcher. I don't understand your point?

You are from Melbourne, I see why you cannot understand the point.

Real example:
Injured person with 7 broken ribs, suspected neck and spine injuries on a road in a forestry region.
000 called.
000 cannot find the area despite it being very obvious of even google maps but as they are city people have no idea of the rest of the country other than on their computer.
000 told the nearest ambo was at a small town abou 15km away.
000 refused to be told which ambo "THEY WILL DECIDE WHICH AMBO".
000 send ambo from another town 100km away.
Ambo gets lost.
000 keeps asking stupid questions like where is nearest post office and where is nearest street corner and cannot understant that there is somewhere in Australia that does not habe a post office or street corner within a a few hundred metres.
2 hr go by.
Patient is getting a bit dehydrated and ants are starting to awarm.
Ambo still lost.
Give up on ambo and set off EPIRB.
Chopper turns up 10 min later but cannot land close and does not want to do air extraction due to risk with spine.
Chopper person at site rings ambo on personal phone and guides ambo in to allow transfer of patient from ground to chopper 2 km away. Radio did not work in area and chopper was on ground.
Patient requires 6 days in ICU.

The fact that YOU have never been in a situation does not mean it does not happen.

And you are an ambo, not a firery, SES, RFS, copper or any of the other services that may need to use any methodology to complete their task.

Coppers carry guns. They are not allowed to used them for hunting or pistol club but they have them in case they need to use them not to use all the time instead of other tools. If there was not an exemption in the law that allowed coppers to carry guns they could not legally use them.

Emergency services can use phones if they have to without breeching the traffic act. They can also exceed the speed limit.

This does not mean they are allowed to do 140km/h on the way to the fish and chips shop ringing ahead to grab 2 cod and chips.

Seriously, if you cannot understand how there may be a situation that does not follow the normal rules and you cannot think outside the square to solve a problem then I wonder if you are in the right job......

[Dalonian]

As I said replying to geckoGT, more often than not, the partner/passenger should be doing the talking.

IF, you are single responding, then it is obviously different. I'm saying that down here we have a PTT foot button and can use the radio. If that digital radio technology isn't available, why can't handsfree bluetooth be used? I'm not saying that mobile phones are not necessary, i'm advocating that it is unsafe to use while driving unless using handsfree no matter how much experience a person has. I'm saying handsfree should be introduced into each single responder ambulance/police car etc. It is not expensive tech.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Black_BF_mKII

As I said replying to geckoGT, more often than not, the partner/passenger should be doing the talking.

IF, you are single responding, then it is obviously different. I'm saying that down here we have a PTT foot button and can use the radio. If that digital radio technology isn't available, why can't handsfree bluetooth be used? I'm not saying that mobile phones are not necessary, i'm advocating that it is unsafe to use while driving unless using handsfree no matter how much experience a person has. I'm saying handsfree should be introduced into each single responder ambulance/police car etc. It is not expensive tech.

And more often than not the other person IS making the call.

You just don't get it. If there was no exemption then it could not happen EVER and that may endanger lives.
In the same way that if there was no speed exemption you could not exceed whatever going to a code one.
As far as the hands free, read my above post it as not as simple and clear cut as you think.

[grandpa_spec_F6]

Originally Posted by DASH GT

I see a detective that lives near my home on one all the time in his SV6 Commodore (which should be fitted with bluetooth). 90% of cars and vans come with bluetooth, why cant they use that like the rest of us?

I only liked this not because im bashing cops, but because the detective who used to live behind me did it every afternoon... usually his wife would be 10 mins behind on hers too.

[Dalonian]

Originally Posted by flappist

And more often than not the other person IS making the call.

You just don't get it. If there was no exemption then it could not happen EVER and that may endanger lives.
In the same way that if there was no speed exemption you could not exceed whatever going to a code one.
As far as the hands free, read my above post it as not as simple and clear cut as you think.

Thanks for editing my post too. There are other options besides bluetooth too. PTT foot buttons for the radio, digital multichannel radio frequencies. I'm only saying it's unsafe. If you don't have the tech and the resources up there then obviously it's required, but that doesn't make it safe..

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Black_BF_mKII

As I said replying to geckoGT, more often than not, the partner/passenger should be doing the talking.

IF, you are single responding, then it is obviously different. I'm saying that down here we have a PTT foot button and can use the radio. If that digital radio technology isn't available, why can't handsfree bluetooth be used? I'm not saying that mobile phones are not necessary, i'm advocating that it is unsafe to use while driving unless using handsfree no matter how much experience a person has. I'm saying handsfree should be introduced into each single responder ambulance/police car etc. It is not expensive tech.

Have you read any of my remarks regarding the cost? Let me spell it out.

Lets conservatively say our service has 2000 vehicles (probably a lot more but that will do), each of which has to be provided with a phone and phone service. That phone and service would cost for arguments sake $1000 per year. Now add onto that the cost of a hands free kit which I just found one for $300 installed. Now you are up to $1300 per vehicle for the initial upgrade, ongoing costs remain every year after that.

So the whole exercise now costs the service $2.6m. I am sorry but that is not inexpensive.

[geckoGT]

Digital radio has coverage issues in rural areas so not a good option for large states such as QLD and WA.

[Dalonian]

Fair point. But you can still use PTT radio. Risking divulging personal info shouldn't be an issue over analogue as the handover shouldn't have any personal info included. I.e No names, address. Should just be Age, Gender, presenting problem, treating etc.

[MercurySilver]

its inexpensive if it saves lives and injuries from inattentive driving while using a mobile phone...which is what they tell us

so
are the lives and injuries worth the spending???

[Peuty]

I got a ticket once for speeding. I asked the cop if he is allowed to speed, then why can't I?

He told me to use my common sense and made the fine bigger. I guess that same applies to this thread...

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Black_BF_mKII

Fair point. But you can still use PTT radio. Risking divulging personal info shouldn't be an issue over analogue as the handover shouldn't have any personal info included. I.e No names, address. Should just be Age, Gender, presenting problem, treating etc.

Just wondering.

How far do you think your PTT radios actually go?
That is outside the repeater network?

We have areas up here that have little or no radio coverage but work great for NextG. This includes the main highways.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by MercurySilver

its inexpensive if it saves lives and injuries from inattentive driving while using a mobile phone...which is what they tell us

so
are the lives and injuries worth the spending???

That will be your view right up until you find out about the tax increase. I seriously doubt there have been any injuries or deaths from highly trained emergency services using phones.

Now tired of hitting my head against the wall.

Have the law changed, why would I care? I will be in the drivers seat unable to pass vital information, it's not my life at risk. I will go home at the end of my shift and not lose any sleep. Why? Because I did not ask for the change, I just did my job under the rules forced on me, that is why I won't care.