Getting through to the Youth

[Peter B - CV8]

Originally Posted by MWTB

The notion that young people have the 'I'm bulletproof it won't happen to me' mentality is crap, and honestly I'm sick of hearing it.

I'm 21 and I've heard it all, especially from my parents. I drive a car with 180rwkw (which I shouldn't be driving as a P plater) but guess how many speeding tickets I've ever had? 0. Guess how many red light infringements I've had? 0. Guess how many times I've been picked up for drag racing? 0. Guess how many times I've been done for drink driving! Does it surprise you that that number is also 0?

Yes, young people are typically idiots with things but its not because we have the 'won't happen to me' bulletproof attitude, it's because the possibility just doesn't come into our head because we don't think about it; and I use 'we' very loosely (I choose not to compare myself to the cretins that are posting about how hard done by they are for losing their license for being 40km/h over).

The answer, in my opinion, is simple. Power to weight ratios like days of old, 125kw per tonne. No forced induction except for diesel cars. It seems ridiculous that I can drive my stock XR6 with 190 at the flywheel but I can't drive a VS HSV with 185 and much heavier.

I am sorry for your loss, and I am sorry to say that its going to keep happening because people my age just don't think about what could happen.

So please, for the sake of my sanity, don't post back telling me that I'm wrong and P platers do think they are invincible because we don't. We're stupid, but we're not THAT stupid. Most P platers just tend to take risks without assessing the consequence properly.

And yet your user name (Town Drunk) & avatar picture (drinking in a car??) give people a totally different perception of "the real you".....

[Franco Cozzo]

Put this up in the window for 1 year:



Then this one up for 3 years:



And don't let them drive anything with this in it:



Problem solved - The Australian Government

[MWTB]

Originally Posted by Peter B - CV8

And yet your user name (Town Drunk) & avatar picture (drinking in a car??) give people a totally different perception of "the real you".....

Way to ignore the entire post and have a go at my avatar buddy, real insightful

Everyone's avatar and personal title is definitely an accurate representation of their real actions. I'm drinking in a beer, yes, but if you look closely, I am in the rear passenger seat.

Try a little harder to be a condescending ***** next time mate.

[flappist]

Keep it civil guys

[mik]

reducing power limits is only a band aid solution, it would`nt matter if it was a golf buggy , you get some young buk full of hormones out for a good time , i guarantee you he will find a way to drive it dangerously, don`t get me wrong doing everything possible might help stopping someone getting killed ,but it won`t stop them,
the young people having car accidents are very well represented in statistics, and i agree with flappy on this , you`ll never stop humans going out and pushing the limits, it`s human nature.

[MWTB]

I'm not sure forcing all newly licensed people to do advanced driving courses would help either, to be honest. I think it'd be a case of 'hey look I just did this course and learned how to safely slide my car, check this out' - dead.

I think the sad fact is that things like this will never go away. The only viable solution that comes to mind is increasing police presence.

[99AUXR]

Originally Posted by MWTB

I think the sad fact is that things like this will never go away. The only viable solution that comes to mind is increasing police presence.

Yea I laugh seeing a boyracer car go flying past someone then see cop and **** themselves

[Maka]

My condolences to AUXR, sorry for you're loss man.

quote from mik:

"the young people having car accidents are very well represented in statistics, and i agree with flappy on this , you`ll never stop humans going out and pushing the limits, it`s human nature.".......especially when you've got 3 or 4 wacked teenagers in the car egging the driver on or the driver showing off trying to impress the guy's in the back in his just purchased car etc. These guys at this age are in competition with each other over everything (bragging rights,bench racing,girls,prestige,power over mates,beers,cones etc) They are family to each other. Ever tried to tell a teenager something? They generally already know everything........or so they say lol! Risk is not in the equation for them. My solution, and one that could already have been mentioned, is for the state guvmint's to start a program where its mandatory for p platers to install a cheap tamper proof data logging setup with the right parameters (G's,speed,rpms,gears etc), go to the local mechanic/rta/insurance provider for a monthly print out then the p platers hand this print out in to rta for next months rego, also be good for insurance purposes imo. Costs dont have to be huge and the kids can on sell the data logging unit to other p platers when they've done their time. This with robust driver training (mandatory for teenagers) could save lives maybe? Heres a story (based on true facts) from my youth worker days- story gets around that a couple kids ripped off a car, started thrashing it while taking turns driving, then one gets dared to do a certain stunt, makes a mistake, front left wheel kisses the gutter then car SLAM'S straight into a telegraph pole with front passenger flying out the window (no seat belt) while mates bolt leaving him for dead. They eventually all got caught but the one who flew out the window will have the scars with him for the rest of his life, will never forget what happend that night and what a massive drop kick he was. Its a story thats all too familiar, it seems some teenagers are anatomically predisposed to risk taking. Tony's (flappist) right, army's/government's know that youth in the 17-22 age bracket are the most brave (stupid?) and for that purpose alone they are first choice fodder for battle.


cheers,Maka

[Crazy Dazz]

To put it simply, the deaths of your mates, whilst tragic, are not statistically significant and aren’t going to drive change. Per capita, we kill less people on the roads now, so the chances of major change are slim.
If we could somehow take the horror and heartbreak of every such death, and make it felt by every adult in the country, then perhaps…
There are several factors that contribute to these deaths, and yet there are ways of controlling and mitigating all of them. But that means giving up some of our personal liberties, and as a society we are a bloody selfish lot. At Schoolies, when Police naturally crack down on the supply of alcohol and drugs to these teenagers, we have parents that smuggle the booze and drugs in for them. With that sought of attitude from parents, what hope is there?

The overriding problem is that all of these issues are occurring at an age when young-people (and indeed much of society) believe they are capable of making their own choices, and largely they aren’t.
This is where all the current approaches fail. You can show a teenager what happens in a crash, you can show them the horror they will inflict on their friends and family, but the majority will still conclude (correctly) that it won’t happen to them.

[mik]

Maka that`s a brilliant idea mate, i reckon it has merit and well worth investigating.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Maka

My solution, and one that could already have been mentioned, is for the state guvmint's to start a program where its mandatory for p platers to install a cheap tamper proof data logging setup with the right parameters (G's,speed,rpms,gears etc), go to the local mechanic/rta/insurance provider for a monthly print out then the p platers hand this print out in to rta for next months rego, also be good for insurance purposes imo. Costs dont have to be huge and the kids can on sell the data logging unit to other p platers when they've done their time. This with robust driver training (mandatory for teenagers) could save lives maybe?

unless you physically stop a person from driving, they will still drive. a licence is only a piece of plastic or paper, not some magical device that defines whether you can or can't drive a car. these young guys that flaunt the laws will continue to do so.

[GTP owner]

This issue is so complex and difficult to tackle, which is why the govco simpletons will fail at it every time.
The only certainty in life is that it ends some time. This is sad, and leaves great heartache, but it is a certainty. I feel for your loss, but in the end we all die.
The issue of trying to alter another persons behaviour is fraught with difficulties, and compounded when dealing with a young person's brain. They lack a fully developed frontal cortex, which means that they struggle to think things through and make reasonable conclusions about consequences. MTWB may disagree, but the science and phsychology bear this out. this is not to judge them or imply that they are bad for this, it just is the way it is. So you are trying to deal with a group who are lacking full adult thinking.
Then you try to impose our adult and often draconian rules upon them, while making them feel guilty and insulting them on regular occasions (see RTA ads involving little fingers etc). This isolates them and makes them less inclined to follow the rules we put in place. Making more laws and harsher laws hardly reverses this phenomenon. Much the same that setting the death penalty does not change the rate at which people murder each other.
Then there is the hormonal influences. A young male can have massive testosterone surges, making them invincible and immune to rational thought. If you want a historical perspective, look up Romeo and Juliet (they were 15).
The we have the problem of the sanitised world, confined by duty of care and safety restrictions. The risk averse rule us now, and those who live for a little adrenalin are choked by them. Choking them even more results in outright rebellion (ie they ignore the rules), or superficial submission which hides internal rebellion (ie they commit suicide).
Put it this way; Young fella has his licence 6 months, job for 3 months. Been enjoying himself, his freedom, and the possibilities of a new girl. He loses his licence for whatever misdemeanour. Loses job. Loses his independence (he moves back in with mum and dad). He gets angry one night and goes and drives without a licence. The cops pull him up and give it to him - reads the riot act, books a trip to court, fines the pants off the kid, acts the big man while bullying the kid. What is this kid going to do? Go home and rethink his attitude, become a good citizen and wait his time until he can start again? Or is he going to rebel and do it again? Or will he give up and overdose on the pills in the medicine cabinet?
Chances are he will not have an epiphany resulting in him waiting.....

[Maka]

Originally Posted by mik

Maka that`s a brilliant idea mate, i reckon it has merit and well worth investigating.

Thanks mik for the kind words. It's something worth exploring, i might start another thread calling on people in the industry, users of data loggers and teenagers for their thoughts, idea's and feedback! I believe it can be done but how cheaply is the question, i'll do some research.


As someone who's seen both spectrums of this issue, i believe that most kids on a whole are not bad kids because they're bad listeners (to them we're b.o.f's) so (as parents) you've got to work out how to get through to them. Through my experience's, i found its how you relate to them and acknowledge their wants & needs, mutual likes & dislikes etc. Youth of today are on a whole very educated and can be a bit arrogant to people they cant relate to-that includes parents. They can be too smart for their own boots hence the blank expression you get when you try and tell them something they cant relate to, its about the way they percieve the world not how they're parents want them to percieve the world. But how do we get through to them? Where do we start? You've got to change they're (the youth's) individual perspective on life and where they fit in the big picture.

One way is to work out what demographic they come from/fit in, eg - how educated are they, how independant are they, what their friends are like, how 'hardcore" are they, whats they're self worth, whether they're in gangs, have addictions/addictive behaviour, what mechanical skills(sympathy for thrashing cars) they have, How prone are they to PEER EGO DISPLAYS (posing in front of their mates,showing off etc), respect for themselves/others etc. What odds on using the above that something bad is going to happen to you're young 'un? It'll come down to parental skills and how far parents are prepared to go in really learning about their kids behaviours, wants & needs, values, asking the kids where do they see themselves in the future etc. This one question will be a pointer on what direction the parents takes. The closer the parent gets to the kids the more chance the parents will get through to them. Parents have to mentor their kids fulltime, effective communication that dosent look down on the kid, work as partners on you're kids future and finally tell em you love them constantly and you dont wont them to hang with @#$h*%s who could get them in trouble or even killed.

Yes its complex but its a subject you cant throw away because its just too hard, these are our kids after all, this is not a defeatist situation.


ps, prydey, the one's you're talking about are obviously law breakers who generally have a crim record, who dont care about nothin but themselves, they are at most risk and need locking up and educating lol!


cheers,Maka

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by GUTLES

at random intervals while driving it requires you to blow in it otherwise it shuts the engine down.

Sounds um, heaps safe.



@ OP, Not much can be done, except keep up education and hope it gets through to most.

I'm sure more race tracks and skid pads would help get some bad driving off the streets.
Many young guys want to experience doing burnout and such, but since there is no where for most to do it, they take it to the streets.

Sure the stupid ones will do it on the streets for the thrill, but I know many of them would be happy with their off street experience.

[vanman_75]

^^^ gtp owner
That is possibly the best post I have read on this subject ,on this forum .
Yes the subject is way more complex then most could realise , I've lost a mate in a datto 120 , and also in a ss commodore...amongst others unfortunately .one was citizen of the year , apex leader, and a true giver to society ...dead from a brain fart one night ....the other just wrong place wrong time .
Neither due to the car , or stature in society ....sad as it is we can't stop all bad things , and I'm yet to really know anyone with the right answers , one thing I do know is it will never be the government that will fix it ...and really I would prefer it if they could stop trying ( my opinion only )
Only give my sincere condolences to families effected by such things ...

[99AUXR]

Okay so driving tonight only a 330km trip, but I got done in Timaru, I was going down hill and just didn't break as was about to go back up hill. Ended up being 12km over. Went past a cop, new he locked my speed in so I just pulled over. He asked how fast i was going I told him. Anyway he ended up saying that because it was in town they don't hand out tickets on the spot unless their are issues with persons identity. They send the information away to a police division and they determine wether they send you a ticket or not depending on previous tickets etc. He said I'm most likely not to get one because no previous offenses.

All in all, being a youth. I found this better and making the police seem more civil within the community and people will feel more welcoming to them opposed to just being that ****** cop that gave me a ticket. next time coming down that dip I will act differently, and all in all have more respect towards cops.

*prepares to be flamed*

[Nikked]

Youth will always be reckless, there is no silver bullet.

[ebxr8240]

You just cannot beat experience.. I grew up driving machinery on a farm on quite steep hills etc..
I had my licence when I was 15 and drink driving was not an issue at that age..Hopefully it still is now..
I've just came back from a wedding / Holiday and a few of my school mates went through the people who have passed away..
Was shocked how many have been killed in accidents..
Strange thing is myself and brother would have been the local hoons back then.. Mainly car club stuff though in small north island town..
I had 2000 / 289 Escort at 18 years...

[MWTB]

Originally Posted by GTP owner

The issue of trying to alter another persons behaviour is fraught with difficulties, and compounded when dealing with a young person's brain. They lack a fully developed frontal cortex, which means that they struggle to think things through and make reasonable conclusions about consequences. MTWB may disagree, but the science and phsychology bear this out. this is not to judge them or imply that they are bad for this, it just is the way it is. So you are trying to deal with a group who are lacking full adult thinking.

I think you misunderstood me. You have just said exactly what I said. I said that young people fail to think things through and think of consequences, not that they think they are bullet proof. No adolescent thinks they are bullet proof, which is what I am sick of hearing. I agree, that most younger people fail to stop and think.

So I do not disagree with you, I wholeheartedly agree.

[GTP owner]

Originally Posted by MWTB

I think you misunderstood me. You have just said exactly what I said. I said that young people fail to think things through and think of consequences, not that they think they are bullet proof. No adolescent thinks they are bullet proof, which is what I am sick of hearing. I agree, that most younger people fail to stop and think.

So I do not disagree with you, I wholeheartedly agree.

Some do think they are invincible. I know I did. At 18 I was full of testosterone and growing muscles. Believed I could do anything, and behaved that way on a motorbike. Luckily I survived my reckless phase and met my wife to be, who gave me a reason to settle down and come home at night.

[BHDOGS]

Some good thoughts on this we've covered the kids what's the older drivers excuses for doing the same things? Thoughts

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by BHDOGS

Some good thoughts on this we've covered the kids what's the older drivers excuses for doing the same things? Thoughts

munted frontal cortex....

[Maka]

Originally Posted by BHDOGS

Some good thoughts on this we've covered the kids what's the older drivers excuses for doing the same things? Thoughts

Stopped doing that stuff years ago, every one grew up, got married and i had no one to impress anymore! Only joking.... One of our favourite shows back when we were kids was Dukes of Hazzard and we all loved the way they were jumping the General Lee and sure enough out in ths scrub we were emulating that behaviour too but it was more important to impress the boys than self preservation.

What changed the behaviour was one night we had a monumental and only a telegraph pole save us from going over a 100ft cliff, i wasnt driving and we are lucky to be alive. I just realised, that growing up we were pretty good (brave or stupid) on skateboards,bmx's,mx bikes (we all rode 500 2stroke mx bikes,1000cc road bikes and all had bathurst based road cars) The risk taking was directly related to who had the most balls doing the most risky stupid things....... We are lucky to be alive today

Thing is when i look back now is wtf were we doing? Ego + testosterone +competition = death wish.


cheers,Maka

[graham7773]

gtp owner, I always thought that "Romeo and Juliet" were figments of Shakespear's imagination? Like people getting around with a donkey's head on or loan sharks demanding a pound of flesh? Naturally, young people have to learn self control but the fact that they are getting used to hormone changes in their bodies should not excuse their stupid behaviour, especially when driving a vehicle (missile) putting their's and others life at risk.
Without giving a long list, the "speed kills" quote can be substantiated just by mentioning a couple of well known names of drivers with years of experience who died at the wheel of their cars going just that bit too fast. The 2 who jump out in my mind are Peter Brock and Aerton Senna. Both world champion drivers but that did not stop them dying. Yes, Senna died because of mechanical failure but the cars being driven by todays youth are not in anywhere as good condition as those drivers cars were. As has been previously mentioned, much more draconian laws are needed, involving the loss of cars where the cars are owned by the drivers committing the offences.
Much more police prensence on the roads. And heres a suggestion most ff members will not like, remove speed camera warning signs and place more of them in hot spots and at traffic lights. People are regularly being killed or injured by idiots running red lights as well as speeding. Revenue raising? Not if you are not speeding. Governments can't raise revenue if nobody is speeding. The thing that worries me is driver attitude. A number of times I have seen ff members saying that they regularly travel at 10 or more Ks over the speed limit. Ah well maybe they have high hormone levels they are trying to control. Wait a few years while they calm down.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by BHDOGS

Some good thoughts on this we've covered the kids what's the older drivers excuses for doing the same things? Thoughts

There are no excuses but older drivers seldom get into this situation as even if they are doing a squillon km/h they usually know before they get into trouble and react accordingly.

There will always be pushback from young people against older people telling them, well anything really.
When I was young my old man told me the same sort of stuff I am saying here and I did not believe him nor did I take any notice of what he said as if he did not agree with me he must be wrong.

As I got older he seemd to be learning because he was right far more often......

[GTP owner]

Originally Posted by graham7773

gtp owner, I always thought that "Romeo and Juliet" were figments of Shakespear's imagination?
Naturally, young people have to learn self control but the fact that they are getting used to hormone changes in their bodies should not excuse their stupid behaviour, especially when driving a vehicle (missile) putting their's and others life at risk.
Without giving a long list, the "speed kills" quote can be substantiated just by mentioning a couple of well known names
As has been previously mentioned, much more draconian laws are needed, involving the loss of cars where the cars are owned by the drivers committing the offences.
Much more police prensence on the roads. And heres a suggestion most ff members will not like, remove speed camera warning signs and place more of them in hot spots and at traffic lights. People are regularly being killed or injured by idiots running red lights as well as speeding. Revenue raising? Not if you are not speeding. Governments can't raise revenue if nobody is speeding. The thing that worries me is driver attitude. A number of times I have seen ff members saying that they regularly travel at 10 or more Ks over the speed limit. Ah well maybe they have high hormone levels they are trying to control. Wait a few years while they calm down.

The shakespear example was used to show that young people have always had an impulsive nature. Yes the characters were fictional, but they show that human nature has not changed over the centuries. Making draconian laws does not, and never will, alter the way we are. I think the example to use here is Aldous Huxley's Brave new world. I think you would find the fictional world to your liking. I would be more like the munted main character.
As Flappist has pointed out, the more you try to bully someone into a behaviour (compliance), the more likely they are to rebel. As an example - when you last had a shouty argument with someone, did yelling louder make them say "oh, yes, you are right, and I am wrong. Silly me I will do what you say next time."? How about if you belted them too? Doesn't work when you are dealing with a teenager, and it does not make an adult change their behaviour or attitude. If anything it makes them worse

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by flappist

There will always be pushback from young people against older people telling them, well anything really.
When I was young my old man told me the same sort of stuff I am saying here and I did not believe him nor did I take any notice of what he said as if he did not agree with me he must be wrong.

As I got older he seemd to be learning because he was right far more often......

Indeed, I was much the same. Couldn't tell me anything when I was a teenager because I knew it all, already. A mate of mine's son is like that now and he's only 9 - seems it's starting earlier these days.

For some, it won't matter what sort of campaigns you bring out, examples of what happens when things go pear shaped or who you wheel out to tell them.. they're already experts at 18. All you can really do is hope they don't learn their lessons the hard way and they mature to the point where they understand they're really not bulletproof.

Of course you also have people who never grow out of believing they're bulletproof.

[RedHotGT]

Originally Posted by flappist

You do realise that 16-25 year olds are historically the warriors of our race and have traditionally been the core of every revolution.
There is a reason for this and while your heart is in the right place you may find that your theory will blow up in your face.

And yet we have a Prime Minister in her early 50s, and the guy trying to take the top job is in his mid 50s...

And we wonder why we've got a problem?????

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by graham7773

gtp owner, I always thought that "Romeo and Juliet" were figments of Shakespear's imagination? Like people getting around with a donkey's head on or loan sharks demanding a pound of flesh? Naturally, young people have to learn self control but the fact that they are getting used to hormone changes in their bodies should not excuse their stupid behaviour, especially when driving a vehicle (missile) putting their's and others life at risk.
Without giving a long list, the "speed kills" quote can be substantiated just by mentioning a couple of well known names of drivers with years of experience who died at the wheel of their cars going just that bit too fast. The 2 who jump out in my mind are Peter Brock and Aerton Senna. Both world champion drivers but that did not stop them dying. Yes, Senna died because of mechanical failure but the cars being driven by todays youth are not in anywhere as good condition as those drivers cars were. As has been previously mentioned, much more draconian laws are needed, involving the loss of cars where the cars are owned by the drivers committing the offences.
Much more police prensence on the roads. And heres a suggestion most ff members will not like, remove speed camera warning signs and place more of them in hot spots and at traffic lights. People are regularly being killed or injured by idiots running red lights as well as speeding. Revenue raising? Not if you are not speeding. Governments can't raise revenue if nobody is speeding. The thing that worries me is driver attitude. A number of times I have seen ff members saying that they regularly travel at 10 or more Ks over the speed limit. Ah well maybe they have high hormone levels they are trying to control. Wait a few years while they calm down.

agree 99%.

some here seem to think its fine to say you cant stop young people taking risks, it will lead to anarchy etc. I disagree.

It perhaps would be tolerable if they were getting their adrenalin rush in ways that dont encroach on the wider safety of the community, (there's lots of activities that they could do that would be just as life threatening that dont require the rest of us to build them a racetrack within 2km of their home), but the reality is that they are endangering themselves and others in public spaces with lethal +1 tonne weapons moving at high speeds.

Civilisation will still go on if a few of these hormone driven adrenalin idiots are stopped from driving cars in public spaces.

the 1% I disagree on? crush the car, whoever it belongs to, all that would happen otherwise is that every punk would just register their car in their granny's name. People will be very careful about who they give the keys to/where they leave the keys if they know thats the consequence.

[prydey]

sudszy - welcome back.

couple of questions.

what procedure did you go through to get your licence?

and

did you do anything stupid in a motor vehicle when you were young?



a lot of people are quick to jump on the speed kills bandwagon, but fail to notice that the speeds of those that wrap themselves around trees etc are well in excess of the posted limit. people also die whilst travelling below the posted limit. speed should never be confused with speeding, and yet it almost always is.

tightening speed limits only affects those who choose to follow them. there is a real lack of respect for authority these days and i think this is where a lot of problems stem from. personally i think there are many who are not getting raised properly in the home either, with parents expecting ALL education to come from school. combine that with a lack of respect for authority and its easy to understand many of the situations we see around.