Loophole puts P-platers into fast cars

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

What do you mean? The current laws already outline what's appropriate driving standards and behaviour. If people wont obey these laws then what? you can tell them a thousand times but if they wont comply all the education in the world is useless.

As a Member of Generation "Indestructible" it was quite an eye opener when doing the JB driving course that showed stopping distances from 100km/h, even with an E92 M3 as the display car...

Yes Education may not be the answer for everybody, but neither is further and further restrictions, if we aren't going to try with one, then why bother with the other as it obviously isn't working!

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by FPV8U

As a Member of Generation "Indestructible" it was quite an eye opener when doing the JB driving course that showed stopping distances from 100km/h, even with an E92 M3 as the display car...

Yes Education may not be the answer for everybody, but neither is further and further restrictions, if we aren't going to try with one, then why bother with the other as it obviously isn't working!

Driving courses are readily and plentifully avaliable all the time, anyone can do them as often as they like, people should take more responsibility for their own ability and training.
None of that training though will make a driver make smarter decisions if they're prepared to flagrantly ignore the law, in fact it can have a tendency to make the immature think they're more invincible...
It takes months and months of practice before reactive skills become instinctive..
1 training session isnt nearly enough to impart better reactive skills or more importantly compensate from a bad choice of actions in your car......
Making better choices about driving attitude and behaviour is the only answer... that comes from maturity and parental/peer group pressure far more than any kind of training or education...
Keeping kids out of high powered cars removes a couple of issues in one hit.

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Driving courses are readily and plentifully avaliable all the time, anyone can do them as often as they like, people should take more responsibility for their own ability and training.
None of that training though will make a driver make smarter decisions if they're prepared to flagrantly ignore the law, in fact it can have a tendency to make the immature think they're more invincible...
It takes months and months of practice before reactive skills become instinctive..
1 training session isnt nearly enough to impart better reactive skills or more importantly compensate from a bad choice of actions in your car......
Making better choices about driving attitude and behaviour is the only answer... that comes from maturity and parental/peer group pressure far more than any kind of training or education...

So your better solution would be?

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by FPV8U

So your better solution would be?

First offence for a P plater (anything speeding/alcohol/hoon related):

Fine + right hook to the jaw as hard as possible.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by FPV8U

So your better solution would be?

Encourage parents, family and friends to take a far more active role in a "zero tolerance" approach to bad driving behaviour and attitude.

Humiliate and chastise family members, peers and friends who muck up intentionally....

[Bobman]

A police-style compulsory driving course would not necessarily prevent accidents, but if people learn to have advanced control over their cars and understand how a car works (chase weir), then there is absolutely no down side.

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Encourage parents, family and friends to take a far more active role in a "zero tolerance" approach to bad driving behaviour and attitude.

Humiliate and chastise family members, peers and friends who muck up intentionally....

I think that's one of those things were if your family, friends, Etc aren't like that now, they aren't ever going to be without some king of Trigger.

If they really want to change this the whole system need overhauling, from The start of High school with weekly education, Practical experience in cars, then "Driver Ed" at higher year levels.

Combine that with Further education on an Annual Basis as part of you licencing costs for everyone and you might start to get that attitude change your after.

I'll put it this way, it will take a hell of alot more than the "Drink & Drive = Bloody Idiot" Mantra to stop people doing it, the same applies to speeding and general just bad quality driving.

[SSD-85]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Humiliate and chastise family members, peers and friends who muck up intentionally....

This is not only considered a form of harassment/abuse, but it would more likely create these outcomes;

Crush their egos, along with self esteem. Whilst this wont apply to all of the king-$h!t drivers out there, to others it will diminish their sense of confidence, which on the road can be just as dangerous.

Make them lose even further respect for authorative figures. And as for peers, the only peers they would listen to would be their friends, and if theyre friends of these types, theyll have the exact same attitude as the driver in question. Also, since when do these morons listen to family members?

But youre right about education Norm, if they listened to education in general in the first place, this wouldnt happen anyway.

[flappist]

FFS....

Young people are now and will forever more be young people.

There is no legislation possible that will stop young people making silly decisions or doing dangerous things.
It is the way we are all programmed by hundreds of thousands of years of evolution.

Training, yes but that will also possibly give us more overconfident superheroes.
Restrictions, yes but by nature we rebel against what we believe is wrong so we search for loopholes or just ignore the law.

Commanding people do do what they do not want to do will always be about as successful as commanding the tide to not come in.

The social engineers and do gooders have for thousands of years tried to change the nature of humans "for their own good" and EVERY SINGLE TIME it has ended up in tears and blood.

I believe that one of the main problems in the current age is the depersonalisation of society. Too much SMS, forums, games and IM and not enough actual face to face interacting.

The other cars do not have people in them, they have avatars that there to be defeated or ignored.

How is this solved? No idea but it is very bloody obvious the revenue based speed cameras, convoluted unfair and almost unenforceable legislation and politically correct dogma currently being shoved down our throats is an abject failure.

As far as the main spray from the beat up.

There is NO WAY that the Federal Government will allow the idiots in the state public services to put obstacles in the way of selling the basic model Commodore or Falcon to ordinary people.

E.G.

If you have 3 or 4 teenage kids who are all going to have to learn how to drive and they will never be able to drive a Falcon or Commodore until they are on their open licenses why would you buy one?

Fleet buyers have to take into account some employees are P platers as do rental companies.

Massive media beatup (and what else is new).......

[bangm001]

No matter what age they then allow these new drivers to start driving high powered cars, they will then be killing themselves at that age, due to the lack of experience and lack of RESPECT for the more powerful vehicle.

[FPV8U]

So we have a Media Issue Brought up to Stir the feelings, emotions and Views of Parents, Grandparents, Family Friends, Etc of Gen Y & Z
(Is Z Correct for 13-14?)

We have several Floated solutions that "Won't Work", "Too Expensive", "Once a drop Kick always a drop kick", "Works overseas but won't work here"...

We have Several Laws in place that simply don't make 1% of difference, yet we keep tightening them to the point it's laughable..

Then we sit here and criticise when we read about another multiple fatality whether it be Drink Driving, Speeding or combination of the above..

No wonder with similarly aged people making the official calls we aren't getting anywhere, there is never any action of the issue and whenever there is it's a pathetic "You can't drive this Now" just to satisfy the media..

We all Claim you can't put a price on lost lives on our roads, the thread topics are headlined with "Another Tragedy", yet we have no real solutions or serious attempts to resolve the issue in motion based on budgets and half @$$ed attempts in the past.

[ST]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Keeping kids out of high powered cars removes a couple of issues in one hit.

No it doesn't. The vast majority of people I know on their P's who drive around in 4 cylinder gutless 'buzzboxes' absolutely thrash them. Because they have so little power they just constantly put their foot to the floor and drive at ridiculous speeds.

You even said yourself it comes down to behaviour and attitude, neither of which are effected by banning high powered cars when almost any car can easily exceed speed limits.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by ST

No it doesn't. The vast majority of people I know on their P's who drive around in 4 cylinder gutless 'buzzboxes' absolutely thrash them. Because they have so little power they just constantly put their foot to the floor and drive at ridiculous speeds.

You even said yourself it comes down to behaviour and attitude, neither of which are effected by banning high powered cars when almost any car can easily exceed speed limits.

Yes it does.... its acceleration and throttle response that gets them into trouble.... not just static speed....

I saw it first hand about 30 mins ago when a p plater left maccas carpark in a hail of tyre smoke in a SS and looped it onto the centre strip.......

[TaNkY fAiRmOnT]

YEP and its those kinds of P-platers that get the bad name thrown at ALL Probationary drivers on the road. A lot of friends like myself obey the laws and try give us all a good name by taking the time to stop to let people cross the roads or either driving slow to show road users were not all in a hurry. but no matter what, if im driving up the street i get stared at even when im moving as fast as a slug. My car i guess you could say has enough power to throw me off the road but every, well... most cars can reach 130+ kph. As said many many times over again it is the idiot in the driver seat that causes the speed. Not the cylinders, weight, turbos or superchargers... ITS THE DRIVER!!

[left]

I like this quote:

Some Holden Commodore V6s have 210 kilowatts of power, which is more than many V8s of a few years ago and more than a Mercedes-Benz V6 included on a VicRoads list of banned vehicles for P-platers

Following that rationale we should all still be getting around in Model T Fords. Of course a current day equivalent car is more powerful than a model from 10 years past...it's called progress. Doesn't make them unsafe.

Fact is I have a better chance of surviving a crash in a 2010 G6ET than I would driving my 2002 XT with only 2 airbags, no ESP and no TRC. The fact that the turbo has close to 100kw more "oomph" doesn't make it more dangerous to drive. As someone else said, it's the nut behind the wheel that makes a car dangerous.

[Joshmcmillan]

It is the driver up to some extent. I've got a 182kw Falcon and drive slower and more responsibly then most people I know on their P's with old cars and little hatchbacks etc...

I think not allowing P platers to drive SOME of the cars that they aren't allowed to now is silly, but I do agree they shouldn't be allowed to drive cars with insane power where they will loose control, but it always depends on the driver, but unfortunately you can't have a different rule for every person. I'm quite confident I'd be able to control myself and keep under the speed limit in any car, because of a simple facts, I don't want to loose my license, I don't want to die, it's against the law, and above all, even if I did want to go over the speed limit or drive dangerously, it's not up to me to risk other people on the roads lives, simple as that.

[uranium_death]

Almost everything abused is unsafe, and almost anything used properly is safe.
If used properly or in moderation, guns, cars, drugs (legal), alcohol and sex are all safe.

However, mixing some together or abusing any of the above is going to lead to problems.

Parents have a large say in how people treat things or indulge in things.. It's not foolproof, but parents explaining to their children the responsibilities that come with everything, as well as displaying it go a long way.

[Sizey]

Im with alot of people on this one. TAME THE DRIVER NOT THE VEHICLE! I used to have a 1.6l Nissan Pulsar that was capable of the same speeds as my current BA. The only real differences is that the BA will accelerate quicker but then again I would much rather be in a crash in the BA than the pulsar.

SO it again comes down to driver training and common sense.

[data_mine]

I'm a fan of further education, proper driver training being compulsory. You won't stop idiots being idiots, but maybe if they have the right skills, a tragedy may just be some dented pride and panels.

But since that'll cost money, here's a government suitable 'solution' (it won't work but will fill the coffers and appease the masses).

Differing license levels. Motorcyclists need a license, truck drivers need to be licensed to handle bigger and more complicated trucks, race drivers need differing licenses to partake in higher level events, why shouldn't car drivers be licensed to handle bigger/more powerful vehicles. It's recognised for other vehicle types that they are not all the same and extra skills are needed by the driver. Cars too.

A regular license for low risk cars. And a special more expensive license for those that want to drive high risk cars. Use the insurance databases to determine low and high risk vehicles. Throw in some education and practical driving class requirements.

This way John Q. Public can drive around in his Camry/XT/Lancer/etc. as we do now. Us enthusiasts get the privilege (and responsibility) of driving something nice. And the government gets some more $.

Not exactly win-win. But if the license costs keep idiots out of performance cars.

Ensure you can't register a 'high risk' car without the right license, and jail time (30-days) for those caught driving inappropriate cars.

[charles_wif_xf]

data_mine beat me to it lol.

[Joshmcmillan]

I don't totally agree with a different license that costs more. If the license costed more, the majority of people wouldn't bother getting it, so what would happen if the need for someone's parents/siblings/friends to drive their car came along, but it was then illegal.

It would work better if the license was at no extra cost, and was only needed to OWN the car in question and included compulsory driver training. If your names on the rego papers and you have the wrong license, well then it is illegal.

[sly_ba]

Originally Posted by uranium_death

Almost everything abused is unsafe, and almost anything used properly is safe.
If used properly or in moderation, guns, cars, drugs (legal), alcohol and sex are all safe.

However, mixing some together or abusing any of the above is going to lead to problems.

Parents have a large say in how people treat things or indulge in things.. It's not foolproof, but parents explaining to their children the responsibilities that come with everything, as well as displaying it go a long way.

I agree with almost everything that you have said here, however, parents will not always be present to guide a child when they are faced with a tough decision. Having said that, if the child has had a sound upbringing then they need not be present all the time......

In my opinion the youth of today lack both respect for themselves and others. Combine this with a blatant disregard for any form of authority or the law and the downward slide begins.....

[03wrx]

Unfortunatley you cant regulate a stupid P plater getting behind the wheel. But you can regulate the car.

Why cant they limit the speed the car can go for certain drivers or even the acceleration of the car ? I had 3 settings on the rex, depending on how much boost I wanted to run. On the lower setting it was more docile than the std car. If I adjusted the computer, probably I could have had fuel cut come in when I exceeded a certain rpm (rather than at 7000rpm it comes on at 5000rpm) or speed.

So the dad can purchase an F6 and run it at 310kw and the teenager, has to have it switched so the turbo runs at 1psi, and cutout is at 4500rpm, with a top speed of 110km/hr. You could do this even with a camry.

Put responsibility onto manufacturers to install devices that can restrict certain parameters. A lot of sports cars have a sports button that increases throttle response and sharpens steering, so they should also include a 'dumb-***' button, that does the opposite.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by data_mine

Ensure you can't register a 'high risk' car without the right license, and jail time (30-days) for those caught driving inappropriate cars.

I agree with your whole post EXCEPT the jail part, jail is a bit too far, give them very harsh fines, hit them where it hurts. Say $5000 fine. Jail will just completely turn the person against society and ruin any chance of someone getting a decent job, once you got a criminal record, you're screwed unless you want to clean toilets. Some people will just enter the "jail roundabout" and keep reoffending to go back in so they don't have to get a job.

You already risk a $1100 fine here in Victoria for being busted in a high powered vehicle on your Ps.

A teenage girl has died, and three others are in critical condition, after their car ploughed into a tree north of Eden in the early hours of this morning.

Police said the Hyundai Excel had been travelling south on the Princes Highway at Little Bellbird Hill about 3.40am when it left the road and hit a tree.

A girl, believed to be in her late teens, died at the scene. Another is believed to have had her legs amputated.

There are conflicting reports from emergency services of ages, varying from 13 to 17, and injuries.

One boy was airlifted from the scene to Canberra Hospital, while two girls were first taken to Pambula Hospital before being flown by Snowy Hydro SouthCare rescue helicopter to Canberra with severe head and leg injuries later this morning.

Canberra Hospital says all three patients are critical. At 11am, the hospital spokeswoman said they were still trying to confirm ages.

Police report them to be a 15-year-old male, 15-year-old female, and 13-year-old male.

Police are unsure of who was driving the car.

The RTA website says lanes are affected in both directions, and delays are expected. "There is a single lane open with alternating traffic conditions in place," it said.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/teena...0131-n61w.html

There we go, Hyundai Excel, HOLY CRAP THE WORLD IS GOING TO IMPLODE! THATS IMPOSSIBLE.

[data_mine]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

I agree with your whole post EXCEPT the jail part, jail is a bit too far, give them very harsh fines, hit them where it hurts. Say $5000 fine. Jail will just completely turn the person against society and ruin any chance of someone getting a decent job, once you got a criminal record, you're screwed unless you want to clean toilets. Some people will just enter the "jail roundabout" and keep reoffending to go back in so they don't have to get a job.

You already risk a $1100 fine here in Victoria for being busted in a high powered vehicle on your Ps.

Firstly, note that that part was my facetious 'solution'.
Secondly, as such a solution would be impossible to enforce (as current power/weight and v8/turbo limitations are), if someone does get caught the punishment needs to be severe enough that everyone's so scared of getting caught they, you know, obey the law. Fines don't work. There's payment plans, and 'hardship' clauses, and rich kids etc.

@ 03wrx
Ford in the US already have a 'kids key' when when this particular key is used limits performance of the car. But as Big Damo points out, any car can go fast enough to kill you. People will still kill themselves - 30kW or 300kW.

And it's proven time and time again every day. speed isn't a killer. poor drivers are. If speed was a killer. V8 Supercars gone, F1 gone, WRC gone. I spent all yesterday on a race track (Wakefield) I had zero problems on the track. Yet twice on the way there I had idiots try to change lanes on top of me, and were I not watching, would've been t-boned at a set of lights when someone ran a red.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by data_mine

Firstly, note that that part was my facetious 'solution'.
Secondly, as such a solution would be impossible to enforce (as current power/weight and v8/turbo limitations are), if someone does get caught the punishment needs to be severe enough that everyone's so scared of getting caught they, you know, obey the law. Fines don't work. There's payment plans, and 'hardship' clauses, and rich kids etc.
\

Give them community service and fines, nothing like cleaning public toilets and picking up rubbish My highschool I used to go to would love some people to pick up all the rubbish 1100 kids generates and toilets/school being cleaned for free, would help them cut costs already being $150,000 in the red.

Also about running reds, I was thinking about that the other day when I was doing a hook turn, what if someone runs a red, the people doing the turns would get T-boned.

[ST]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Yes it does.... its acceleration and throttle response that gets them into trouble.... not just static speed....

I saw it first hand about 30 mins ago when a p plater left maccas carpark in a hail of tyre smoke in a SS and looped it onto the centre strip.......

No it doesn't. A high-powered car has greater acceleration and throttle response and as such this would make somebody much more aware of the speed they are travelling.

You saw an idiot in an SS attempt a burnout out the front of maccas and you blame it on acceleration and throttle response? I've seen the same thing happen in cars of all shapes and sizes. In fact last week I saw the exact same thing happen in an old 4-cylinder Hilux of all things. Somehow I think the key factor was behind the wheel.

[Fev]

People are still looking for something other to blame then the moron behind the wheel and instead of prevention - theyre looking for some stupid bandaid cure.

Where did all the common sense go? Was there a limited supply?

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by ST

No it doesn't. A high-powered car has greater acceleration and throttle response and as such this would make somebody much more aware of the speed they are travelling.

.

Mate.. seriously.. if you honestly believe that you are clueless....

[T3ts50]

Im still confused about the P plate laws, at least in Vic anyway. Last night I saw a red P plater driving an R33 Skyline, and right behind him was another p plater drivin a VU SS ute. From what I understood, p platers in Vic cant drive V8's or turbos.