Are we on the wrong side side???

[xr_ash]

I'm pretty sure Ford know what they're up to! They get rid of what doesn't sell to stay afloat...
Just look back in the 90's with the XR6 wagons. Sure, they were great but they just didn't sell enough to warrant continuing the line - CUT!
As has been discussed, I think I'd rather see Ford potentially lose a few fans than lose the company.
If this means cutting the wagon line for now, then so be it. There are other alternatives - Territory, Escape, Mondeo...

[Rodp]

Here's an idea. Don't pick a side. I'm biased towards Ford but when I open my wallet, that's where it ends.

If I'm spending $60k+ on a car, I'll be damn sure it's the car that suits my needs/wants the best at that time. I value the money I earn in that I wouldn't knowingly buy an inferior car IMO just because of the shape of its badge.

If Ford don't have a wagon for sale and you want a new one, Holdens looks an absolute ripper.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by loftie

Do you change your footy team when you lose a game or finish bottom of the ladder?

No, but I don't give them $60k every once in a while to watch them play. At the end of the day, if my favorite footy team gets the wooden spoon, its effect on my life is 0.0

There's no comparison between supporting a sporting team and purchasing a product from a business that's trying to turn a profit.

[Brazen]

Hey Mr Ford, bring back the RTV and il attempt to maybe possibly forget the wagon decision.


Lets see what Sportwagons done to Commodore sales:

1200-1400 sales a month, 4 year old Commodore total up 22% year on year, now fully dominating top selling position when previously was being challenged by Corolla, outselling newer/better Falcon by a very large margin- These kind of sales mean that I really dont agree that Sportwagons are purely sale substitution of sedans, il probably get one when VF comes out and I would never consider a Commodore before and surely I cant be the only one.

Some people think the Sportwagon is one of the worst things to happen to Commodore, where I think it has been one of the best.

As a Ford fan it would be good to see Falcon get the variants it deserves to build sales. But understand Ford AU needs to make cuts somewhere.

[Bud Bud]

The Commodore sport wagon just goes to show that if the wagon matches the current sedan, then it will sell. The Ford wagon is extremely dated and still is the weakest link in terms of styling in the Ford line up imho. In fact it probably helps the Holden sport wagon because of this, because as we know it seems that only fleets have been interested in the Falcon wagon of late. It is like they (Ford) have been trying to kill it off for years.

[HSVKILLA]

One sentence from me and one only"FOREVER FORD AND FORD FOREVER FULLSTOP".

[irlewy86]

Sure you can look at the negatives or;

Fairlane
Went out at the right time. To say sales have died of the LWB is an understatement. Holden is forcebly having their Stateo replaced with a Buick LaCrosse (google images of it if your feeling a bit down about ford) Ultimately it will be reborn with a Lincoln sister car which will mean a lot more technology and features which was a major buzz kill on the last generation along with the lack of styling differntaion.

Wagon
The Sportswagon sells for a reason. The rear view of the commodore is ugly as sin, the "sportswagon" is better optioned and in most cases better value than the sedan. From memory they all come with a reverse camera which is a $1500 option on the sedan making up for the difference in price. Those who are asstute will notice that the Sportswagon hasn't generated a new customer for Holden while Terrortory has opened up a whole new market that Ford would otherwise would have never cracked

Sales
Ford don't make 100,000 cars a year anymore, and thats reflected by the lack of Falcon taxi's and police cars. But this couldn't be better for the private buyer. Less fleet hacks means less resale attrition. This is a positive thing, maybe not long term but definately short term.

RTV
There is no defending the indefenseable, silly move. Is it really that hard to build a ute with extra clearance, a special diff and bash plate?

Are you on the right side? I dunno, I never knew there was right and wrong sides. You drive what moves you.

[XWGT]

Originally Posted by Rodp

Here's an idea. Don't pick a side. I'm biased towards Ford but when I open my wallet, that's where it ends.

.

I have to agree here. I am about to shell out $150k for two cars and neither will be a Ford as they dont suit the criteria I have for my next cars. That dosnt mean I dont love my Fords, it simply means the price product mix dosnt work for me at the moment.

The new GT may well change this equation. But it would be the first Ford besides the G6ET or F6 that would spark my want meter for the last few years. (Really its wants, I dont NEED a 300+kw 4 door family sedan but I certainly could WANT one)

However I do NEED low range 4WD, diesel engines, good service options, good aftermarket options and really importantly good resale values. Nothing in the Ford range ticked all of those boxes. This however does not mean I do not like or support Ford. I do. But they need to earn my $ just as their competitors have.+

[RedHotGT]

Originally Posted by Rodp

There's no comparison between supporting a sporting team and purchasing a product from a business that's trying to turn a profit.

Do you think the AFL is there just for 'the fun of it'??

They are also a business that are trying to turn a profit... different product - same target.... $$$$$

[TUF_302]

We are definetly on the Right side, as far as im concerned Ford go for Quality not quantity these days, which isn't a bad thing, the better we make our cars the better off we will be in the long run
As in other threads Ford sell alot more of the G models and the XRs than they do the Xts, which gives us alot better profit margine on what we are selling, even tho holden sell more cars, they dont neccesarily make more money on each one

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by loftie

Do you think the AFL is there just for 'the fun of it'??

They are also a business that are trying to turn a profit... different product - same target.... $$$$$

But still a poor analogy.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by TUF_302

We are definetly on the Right side, as far as im concerned Ford go for Quality not quantity these days, which isn't a bad thing, the better we make our cars the better off we will be in the long run
As in other threads Ford sell alot more of the G models and the XRs than they do the Xts, which gives us alot better profit margine on what we are selling, even tho holden sell more cars, they dont neccesarily make more money on each one

I mean do Ford really make more money on their cars than Holden? Ford has a small operation which sells about 56,000 Falcons, utes, Territories a year on a bespoke platform.

Whereas Holden sells Commodores and Statesmans on nearly every continent and shares platform and drivetrain with the Chev Camaro in the US which all up probably equal around 250,000 cars which gives them great economies of scale.
Plus the Zeta platform being a modern platform is a lot cheaper and easier to make and there were rumours that it costs 20% less to make than the VZ, dont know if thats true.

Because Ford AU is small they should use their small size to its advantage, it can be nimble and quick to market with new niches. Things like RTV utes, LPG Territories, Off-Road Pack Territories, LPG Turbos, Falcon-bull bars, Column auto XR utes, etc. Should be easy to do because of the production capacity is there and they dont have to go through a beuracratic mess to introduce new things.

Just like a how the platypus is a strange creature adapted to Aussie conditions, we should see unique creatures emerge from Ford AU adapted to the Aussie car market and flavour. I love to see that kind of 'thinking outside the box' come back to Ford oz.

[Redrum]

Nope, not at all. Every time I drive my F6 and pass some HSV puss rocket I think quite the opposite.

[Dave R]

Threadstarter is correct. It's hard to win when the parent company hardly acknowledges your existence.

Holden are in a much better position and for good reason - GM actually gives a **** about Holden. Ford North America on the other hand are a bunch of snobs who seem to look down on Australian product. Why didn't they give Falcon a chance at being their new police cruiser? It's perfect - big, tough RWD with large displacement engine options. And remember, Falcon is getting their I4T and their V8, so the unique I6 servicing issue over there wouldn't be a problem if they were exported at I4Ts and V8s. But no. They are going to heavily modify their own FWD Taurus instead.

There's just one example - GM uses a Holden product for their cruiser, Ford does not give Australia a second thought and decides to engineer their own FWD sedan for the purpose. Then there's GM using Commodore's platform for Camaro. Then they exported Commodores to the USA, in addition to the UK and the Middle East. I don't know whether to blame Ford Aus for not trying, or Ford Globally for not caring.

The fact is that we have a car built here that is against everything Ford's new business strategy stands for. "One Ford" means that the Falcon must either not exist, or must change significantly. I'm not banking on Ford co-developing Mustang and Falcon but alot of Ford fans keep telling themselves that this will be the case so they sleep better at night. And yeah, Falcon is getting I4T and the new V8 - big whoop, it's just the beginning of North American product infiltrating our market. People are cheering about the new engines from the States, but will they be cheering when we start importing complete cars from over there? In the meantime, all of our Ford service centres are learning how to service and repair these new Yank powerplants, then it's that little bit easier to import the cars that the engines come from natively.

Call me a naysayer, but really I'm just being realistic. Ford are losing all Falcon derivatives, first Fairlane, now wagon, RTV is gone, Territory has been deglected for 6 years (yeah it's getting a makeover this year or next, but it's too late), who is willing to bet that Allan Mulally doesn't give a **** about the ute which shifts tiny numbers compared to what they sell in the US. That just leaves the sedan and if Allan can save a billion dollars every decade by exporting a Taurus and calling it Falcon I'm willing to bet that he will take that gamble. I know he said something about "exciting" RWD prospects in the future for Australia, which (since he made sure he did not mention Falcon) I'm sure is code for "One Ford means you will receive Mustang, that satisfies the RWD niche whereas Taurus can cater to everybody else".

Waiting for everybody to tell me I'm wrong.

[chrisfpv]

I think in the end it all comes down to one thing, YOUR TASTE IN CAR!

Take me for example. I think every Ford pre BA is dog ugly, and i'd never own one. The BA in my opinion is absolute gold and better looking than the FG hence why I purchased one.

I also think the Holden Commos look much better than Fords, my next car will be a Holden VY, VZ or VE because I think they look good and that's my taste.

There may be people who are in the same boat as me and have similar taste, and others who are completely the opposite and think Holden Commos are ugly and worship Ford in all there glory. I don't think there is a right and wrong side, but peoples taste in a car and personal opinion.

[Iggypoppin']

I am often confronted by people who, upon hearing i drive a ford, scoff and tell me "fords are crap". when i ask them why, they state "oh, its a ford". while thats hardly a reason to hate a brand(note, hating a brand because of its name is pretty childish!!!) i can see sort of what they mean. ford just aren't percieved as being as good as the holden equivilant, and even though they are, and are better in some respects, many people don't see this and buy holden or others accordingly. im a glass half full person. ford will come through eventually, and if they don't? ill support them till their dying day.

[Wally]

To the OP, I think you have a valid point there, if and only if you think in terms of them and us. Sales volumes indicate the general Australian public think otherwise. While the few in the Holden and Ford camps duke it out, the other 98% of the population are buying on affordability, practicallity, prestige, etc.

Like it or not the Falcon has always played second fiddle to Holden, it may not be fair, but that's the just the way it is. The Ford brand is just too strongly associated with the US, while the Holden brand is rooted in post war triumph and aussie pride. If nothing else, we Australian are very tolerant of profits going offshore, just so long as they tell us what a wonderful people we are and we'll do lunch sometime.

The gentrification that has been taking place over the last twenty years is probably the biggest spolier Ford and Holden have had to deal with. No longer statisfied with having a comfortable car that goes from A to B, the Hyacinth Buckets have been waging war with their AWD APCs, the suits have gone for fashion accessories with interlocked rings as bonnet emblems and stylised propellors, the sugar daddied boyracers have migrated to Jap coupes and even the terribly sensible have found a haven in all things asian. The once mainstay buyer of the Falcon, the cocky has moved onto FWD Cruisers and Hilux utes.

And that is where I think Ford and Holden have missed a big opportunity, They should have got together and created a Hilux type all oz platform decades ago and then brand personalised it for sales to the tradies.

I wouldn't want to see the Falcon disappear, but it will happen unless people start voting with their cheque books and Ford marketing start targetting the right people. If they can't match it with the commodore, they should move the product down market or up market, not try to play in Holden's backyard, which has traditionally been the townies.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by XR

I think in the end it all comes down to one thing, YOUR TASTE IN CAR!

Take me for example. I think every Ford pre BA is dog ugly, and i'd never own one. The BA in my opinion is absolute gold and better looking than the FG hence why I purchased one.

I also think the Holden Commos look much better than Fords, my next car will be a Holden VY, VZ or VE because I think they look good and that's my taste.

There may be people who are in the same boat as me and have similar taste, and others who are completely the opposite and think Holden Commos are ugly and worship Ford in all there glory. I don't think there is a right and wrong side, but peoples taste in a car and personal opinion.

So you buy cars purely based on how they look? Alot of people on this forum are car enthusiasts who take into significant consideration how the cars drive. From a previous thread of yours I'm lead to believe you aren't the best driver so I'll take your word that looks trump ability. And there's no way you were shopping FGs against BAs so why bring up FG's look as a reason you bought a BA? I will however agree with you that VE's have better proportions, but VY? Surely you shopped VYs against BAs yet you ended up with a BA and now you suggest that VYs onwards "look much better than Fords". The mind boggles.

Originally Posted by Iggypoppin'

I am often confronted by people who, upon hearing i drive a ford, scoff and tell me "fords are crap". when i ask them why, they state "oh, its a ford". while thats hardly a reason to hate a brand(note, hating a brand because of its name is pretty childish!!!) i can see sort of what they mean. ford just aren't percieved as being as good as the holden equivilant, and even though they are, and are better in some respects, many people don't see this and buy holden or others accordingly. im a glass half full person. ford will come through eventually, and if they don't? ill support them till their dying day

I've noticed with mine that literally every comment I've had on the looks has been positive, but a fair few of them follow up by saying "for a Ford" (generally Holden blokes to be honest). I was at the boat ramp the other day and had a bloke approach me from his Commodore, I thought he was interested in the shiny new boat but he just wanted to tell me he thought the car looked nice... and the closing comment as usual - "but it's still a Ford!".

And Wally that's a great post, you've earned some rep from me!

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by Blue Beast II

So are we on a sinking ship??

No.

Originally Posted by Blue Beast II

Do I have merits in my arguements??

Not really.

Originally Posted by Blue Beast II

Am I badly wrong?

Yes, mostly.

Originally Posted by Blue Beast II

Am I just saying out loud that (be honest with youreslf) most if not all of us have been thinking?

Maybe. There's more to the situation than meets the eye, so, yes, if people draw conclusion from Holden's everbuIIshi ting marketing, and the "high" sales quantity, then it's no surprise that you'd think that. Personally, I'm far from worried about Ford's future; it wasn't them getting bailed out.

Originally Posted by Blue Beast II

Please keep to facts, not the whole "ford is just better' Thats good for a laugh, but I'm serious.

As above. Look into what isn't selling and you'll find the large Ford cars aren't doing badly (notwithstanding Territory's lack of performance due to age), it's the expensive imports that aren't firing. There is a strong case for Falcon's future, beyond 2015. The fact it isn't set in concrete is because it's too far out to make the decision <<< I wish people would get this point alone through their skulls.

Originally Posted by Blue Beast II

I think we're in trouble people......


BBII

And to answer the thread title, yes, you probably are.

[Iggypoppin']

Originally Posted by Adrenaline

So you buy cars purely based on how they look? Alot of people on this forum are car enthusiasts who take into significant consideration how the cars drive. From a previous thread of yours I'm lead to believe you aren't the best driver so I'll take your word that looks trump ability. And there's no way you were shopping FGs against BAs so why bring up FG's look as a reason you bought a BA? I will however agree with you that VE's have better proportions, but VY? Surely you shopped VYs against BAs yet you ended up with a BA and now you suggest that VYs onwards "look much better than Fords". The mind boggles.



I've noticed with mine that literally every comment I've had on the looks has been positive, but a fair few of them follow up by saying "for a Ford" (generally Holden blokes to be honest). I was at the boat ramp the other day and had a bloke approach me from his Commodore, I thought he was interested in the shiny new boat but he just wanted to tell me he thought the car looked nice... and the closing comment as usual - "but it's still a Ford!".

And Wally that's a great post, you've earned some rep from me!

next time, ask him how is holden is "holden" together

never fails to crack me up when i say that(usually toungue in cheek).

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by Wally

And that is where I think Ford and Holden have missed a big opportunity, They should have got together and created a Hilux type all oz platform decades ago and then brand personalised it for sales to the tradies.

BINGO

A country the size of Australia and with a large farming and rural community would have been perfect to manufacture a off-road based vehicle. Its funny most of our fourbies come from places like Japan which are highly urbanised.

[SM1DY]

I originally got into V8 supercars when the AU was released, and I've gotta say, if I can go through a dry spell like what they dished out and endure the relentless torture administered by my so called friends, nothing will see me doubt the pride I have in the blue oval.

[Bossxr8]

OP, I don't see how you see Statesman/Caprice as a success for Holden. They only sell around 200 a month. Ford axed the Fairlane for sales higher than that.

LWB is a dead market.

[fordv8!]

no way!!!!

[sxckevo]

Originally Posted by Adrenaline

So you buy cars purely based on how they look? Alot of people on this forum are car enthusiasts who take into significant consideration how the cars drive. From a previous thread of yours I'm lead to believe you aren't the best driver so I'll take your word that looks trump ability. And there's no way you were shopping FGs against BAs so why bring up FG's look as a reason you bought a BA? I will however agree with you that VE's have better proportions, but VY? Surely you shopped VYs against BAs yet you ended up with a BA and now you suggest that VYs onwards "look much better than Fords". The mind boggles.

EXCELLENTLY put

I will not be switching sides ever, i like the look of the E2's (even though they made me sick at first) but i will always buy a ford first, i truely believe they are a better car

[Windsor220]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

OP, I don't see how you see Statesman/Caprice as a success for Holden. They only sell around 200 a month. Ford axed the Fairlane for sales higher than that.

LWB is a dead market.

Im surprised the Statesman/Caprice are still going. We never see them at work. When you do get the odd one you realise why they dont sell. There is no need for such a big car these days. Unless your the prime minister.

In regards to the wagon. Commodore is only selling 3500-4500 a month these days. And its basically a fleet hack. Thats wagon and sedan combined. I think the AU was selling more than that. A Ford wagon would make no difference. Who would buy it?

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Blue Beast II

Personally I think that the whole reason that holden has such a big following now is from fords v8 engine termination in the 80's, so with nowhere else to go some switched sides... & of course these people had kids, & grew up with holden branded stuff everywhere, & naturally loved holden. I could be wrong. Are there any holden converts here? Why did you jump?

To answer your question, there is at least one here as that is me. I owned a VH SL/X which then was changed with a VL Berlina turbo (one of the best cars I have owned). Then I made a large mistake and went for the VN Gp A which had all the go fast bits and nothing compared in aussie sedans at the time. Then the front suspension collapsed, it was stolen and then recovered, the clutch died, it was stolen again and recovered again, the gearbox died as did the clutch (again) and there was a multitude of problems after that but you get the idea. That car got me so mad that I flogged it off and bought an ED Falcon (another in my all time best list). Why did I buy a ED, because it looked ok, I knew the multipoint 4L was a good reliable motor and most importantly, I knew it would not get stolen. It was agreat car, over 300,000 km and the only breakdown was the coil pack died once.

That positive experience caused me to look at Ford for my next car (after a stint on bikes), my buy was the BA XR8 (waited for this as I hated the styling of the AU).

I have now had 3 B series cars (XR8, BAII GT and BF SP), all have been a mountain of reliability issues and warranty claims (although the BF has been the best of them). Each time getting something fixed is a painful experience and if I hear "it is within tolerances" or "they all do that" again I think I will scream.

So for me, Ford have done the same thing as Holden did all those years ago that caused me to jump ship. Will my next car be a Ford, not really much chance of that. Will coyote sway my decision, not likely as I will not buy the first model of a new series again, maybe series 2 but not series 1.

Like most here, I support ford and they are the manufacturer that I hope prosper in the years to come the most. Will I always buy their product? No I will not, I will not spend big money on major purchases that I will use every day out of some false sense of brand loyalty. Why should I have unquestioned loyalty to a brand that certainly has not shown me any loyalty? I will buy the best product that suits my needs. At this point in time, for reasons many here have heard me talk about previously, Ford do not have that product right now.

I really hope that next time I am in the car market, they have the product for me as I would love to have a ford in my drive again.

By the way, do V8SC influence my buying decision at all? No they don't, I have enough inteligence to realise that neither the ford or holden have enough in common with the road going offering to be indicative of the value and features of that product.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

OP, I don't see how you see Statesman/Caprice as a success for Holden. They only sell around 200 a month. Ford axed the Fairlane for sales higher than that.

LWB is a dead market.

Maybe but the Chinese Buick Royam and now Park Avenue justify its existence and development of LWB Zeta II,
Ford could never do that with the Fairlane and LTD....

[Bossxr8]

Makes it easy to send production of it OS though doesn't it.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Blue Beast II

Ive said before that I'm usually a glass half full type of guy,.....

Now look at the succes of the VE commodore wagon?? & there is such a big range... From Omega to SS, plus the HSV versions... Holden is appealing to such a broad range... & one that is such a good idea: the family wagon that the man of the house thoroughly enjoys driving & take to the strip once the weeks dutys are over. I mean how good is that?? Gone can be the day of having the extra car the he can have to play with.... So less rego, less room taken up... less expenses....less wife nagging (some may say thats priceless) Some people want a car to play with but cant afford costs of buying & keeping it. I can see thats a pretty powerful marketing tool, even if it isn't marketed. I saw two examples of this on the weekend, at the servo. Family in an SS, come in to buy some stuff, the Guy is obviously a car man, you can just tell by the powercruise shirt he's wearing, the note on the VE as he pulled in, & hes on the way to a drag day.....

Then theres the Fairlane. It was said that "Fairlane would have no place in the Orion line up" Now Holden took another slice. I'm seeing More & more Statesmans on the road than ever.... Not to mention the Business Class/Silver Service Taxi's (or the higher class names in other states). More & more Statesmans, 300c's the occaisonal G6E but its not alot of them. Now some of you may say, just buy a G range car, it has the same stuff. Would you buy a GT if it was Axed & something else was similar, but not named the same?? Probably not, its just not the same as the badge on the front that says GT.

The stato and wagon only survived because it was to be a world wide car. The R&D could be justified and spread over larger amounts of sales. The Statesman would never be able to survive in the Australian market alone. The wagon has done well but the sedan has suffered (as was the Falcon wagon with the Territory).

If Ford could actually get the GRWD program (not likely as FordNA they wanna push their rubbish over here) then things like the wagon and LWB would actually be brought back (wagon more likely then LWB).

As for the RTV, it was actually a flop. But I cant understand why they didn't just do a wagon to it and put a BFIII badge on it.

For me I'll keep buying Falcons while they are still Falcons, if they try to push a re-badged Taurus or go FWD then I'll move on to another manufacturer.