Aussie car bashing

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by CAMS290

Correct me if i am wrong, but are some 3 series BMW's are made in South Africa for the Australian market ?

Your correct, all 3 series sedans and wagons are built in south africa, with the exception being the coupes, convertibles and go fast models coming from Germany

[uranium_death]

I will say that I have NO desire to EVER buy an imported car.

Give me the choice between a Beamer, Merc or G6E, and I'd take the G6E anyday.

It's all about perception. People want to feel important, and a car is a major tool for feeling important and projecting an image.
One family I know of, the wife drives a large BMW sedan (5 series?), the husband drives an X5, and they just bought their LEARNER daughter a $70,000 Volvo.

Their daughter was at Glen Waverley Secondary and loved it there (left Wesley College because she wasn't actually learning anything (in her own words)), but the mother INSISTED that she MUST go to a private school.

People need things to project an image and what better way than a European car.

I agree that their build quality may be superior, but at the price you pay, I'd bloody well expect it!

From personal experience, I don't believe there is any better value car than an Australian-built six cylinder car.
We had no problems with the XF once we had our car serviced with CarCare, and the VTII has had no problems at all in 8.25 years, with only the tyres, central locking thingies (the receiver in the front door died) and steering rack being the three most notable things to have been changed.

So I can't speak highly enough of Australian vehicles.

My old man is very discernable in how he spends his money and will be the last person to buy a European car.

Driving for over 40 years, he's only owned 5 cars, four of them Australian.
64 EH Special
Early 70s Corona Wagon (the exception)
VC/H (I don't remember the vehicle that well - was written off when I was four - drunken Fairlane up the back) Wagon
XF Wagon (The Tractor)
VTII

Never a complaint.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by buickman

A South African built Ford better quality than Aussie I beg to differ.
But Aussie cars are cheaper for parts and are more suited to our conditions.
Now way would I buy a car from South Africa including the Focus and Corolla.

Also remember that the FoA have sent engineers to the SA plant to fix the issues that they cant do.

Originally Posted by Dave_au

Your correct, all 3 series sedans and wagons are built in south africa, with the exception being the coupes, convertibles and go fast models coming from Germany

Also all low model mercs are now built in Asia with only the high end models coming from Europe.

[Swordsman88]

This issue does not have a simple explanation. I think the comments made by others have alot of truth to them. Ignoring the 'stereotype' issue for a moment, i think addressing the actual quality of the recent falcon models is important.

As noted by others, the 'euro' cars that are so respected in australia, and many of the japanese brands too, are base average spec cars in their hope countries. They are far from outstanding in many areas, but are solidly built cars particularly with regard to interior plastics.

The reason for this is obvious, a falcon is sold in ridiculously low numbers in effectivley one market. Even a light car like the toyota yaris, or fords own imported cars (fiesta, focus etc.) are sold in much greater numbers around the world. If you compare the sheer number of toyota corollas (a far from quality car IMO) sold worldwide, with effectively identical parts you start to realise why they have better interiors in particular. Each plastic part has a design cost spread over 10 to 20 times as many cars sold.

Mechanicaly, similar issues arise. People forget the cost of development involved in making the brilliant ZF 6speed auto compatible with aussie falcons, it would have cost millions just to engineer it. how many 3 series do BMW sell worldwide with the same gearbox?????

Which brings us to the issue of part cost itself. The ZF isn't cheap, the use of alloy double wishbone front suspension (when other use cheap mcpherson) and variable ratio steering rack isn't cheap, nor is the new 5 speed auto compared to the old 4 speed in base models. And these make a differnce believe me, they aren't for show. Fact is for its size and capabilities the aussie large car is extraordinary value, moreso in recent times. To pay for this Ford and Holden cut corners, simple as that. Every manufacturer does it, just not as drastically.

The FG was supposed to have capless refueling (ala mondeo/fiesta), that got binned. Cost cutting killed of HIDs, standard curtain airbags. Even the size of the heat shield in the engine bay and launching XT without alloys are examples of crazy attempts. Some people views this as an excuse, and say 'it isn't my problem', well maybe so but it is FACT. Why does ford not have different spec atmo engines (ala EF, AU), no V8 optoin etc. COST.

Yes local cars are getting better, particularly in terms of technology, safety and build quality. Interios are improving too. The gap between an FG and a current BMW is way smaller then it was 10, 15 years ago. But until a much bigger market is found, or we start paying much more for them, they will always be the 'poor cousin' in some areas to imported cars.

You know what, I DON"T CARE. They are good value to buy and operate, they have all the latest tech in most models and great safety. They have almost all the modern features you'd ever need too. Most importantly, they are great to drive and be driven in. The FG isn't just the best car ever made in this country, in the areas that really matter, it is perhaps in the top 3 best large cars in the world. AND IT IS BY FAR THE CHEAPEST. Nuff said if you ask me.

[Trevor 57]

I often go onto an American drag racing forum, they were talking about the Pontiac G8 (I think it was) which is the Australian Commodore, and they are absolutely raving about how great the build quality is.

You need to know how good our product is against the likes of the biggest producing car country, and the Commodore stacks up pretty well in their view.

Just imagine how excited they would be if they saw a Ford G6E Turbo.



And for the record I ALWAYS recomend people buy Aussie made cars.

[Keepleft]

I'd be happy if the locals just had the standardised 'basic' Euro gear.

[dave289]

remember fords and holdens are built on a tight budget, and considering this they do a very good job. look at the fg turbo for eg. just as fast as a 200k+ m5 with the same if not better seating capacity and room and similar specs, the extra specs are usually useless crap they they feel compelled to add to justify their huge asking price .there is no better value car in the world than an fg turbo. I speak with many car owners of many different models as I work in the automotive industry, If you think bm's and mercs have no problems then you are dreaming, this is the misguided perception that many people have, never having owned one. I know people that have bought brand new bmw's ,one owner had it back to the shop more than eight times in the first year ,with the computer blowing out with only 800kms on board, I have spoken to brand new porshe owners that also have issues with their car, some maybe small but they still have dramas.my mate had a brand new merc a couple of years back he said his battery would die every few months leaving him standed and had to get it towed and then buy a new battery every 3 to 6 months, he also complained about other problems ,but i cant remember exactly what they were now, yes in general the quality of german and japanese cars are far better than aussie cars but the asking price by comparison does not make sense, value for money the aussie cars win hands down. look at the commi 6.2 litres of raw aussie power for a fraction of the cost of an import with a similiar size engine. if you think euro cars have no probs get on bmw website or similar and see for yourself. and when things go wrong in these overpriced cars out of warranty its time to take out a bank loan , a gearbox in a 5 series will give no change from ten grand, just ask my uncle, he has owned bm's since i was a kid, he now drives a lexus rx330 after claiming the bm were costing way to much to run ,he has bought them brand new and said that it cost him over 10 grand a year to run and that was not considering deprectiation, and also before the gearbox shat itself just out of warranty. good luck badge buyers you can have your overpriced ,overhyped crap. what would you buy for the price ?,a brand new merc c180 for $50k that would get blown away by diahatsu charade and have interior the size of a camry or and ford fg xr6 turbo : buying a low end euro shows people just want a badge and have more money than cents, buying a high end euro is a shocking waste of money , makes no sense to me, I'll take the aussie car anyday. when you have a prob with your euro its usually five times more painfull because you paid five times as much and will pay five times as much when it comes to fixing it. dont get me wrong I would love to have and own an m5 but could never justify the asking price .and to think you could spend $1000 on the ford and smoke this overpriced euro. sorry if I went on for to long.

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Also all low model mercs are now built in Asia with only the high end models coming from Europe.

The Australian supply of C Class Mercs once came from South Africa; I was told that these switched back to Germany, at least during 2007 when we were in the market.

[desGT]

Originally Posted by XR6_190

...CHEAP MATERIALS:
This doesn't necessarily limit itself to the interior plastics, but there is also the quality of steels used, (relatively new cars shouldn't rust, I'm looking at you Territory) and the quality of paints used, honestly the paint on new falcons and commodores is far too thin. Then of course there is always the Interior plastics...

As an ex-BF and now FG GT owner, I can honestly say that these cars are great value. Oh, I also own an 18yo Porsche, and can also say that the interior plastic used in the Ford is sooo bad, there just is NO comparison. I would be willing to pay a few $100 more to have plastic that doesn't scuff with the most minor use. Why put this crap on the bottom of door shell? A cable from my GPS will mark the plastic on the dash after a short drive.

The paint on the Commodore (yes, I own one, 2000 VX s/c) is much better than that on the Falcon (and thinking about it, the interior plastic in the Commodore wears better than the Falcon).

And yes, will probably buy the next GT that comes out - great value despite their minor foibles (great cruise machines!).

[Wretched]

Aussie cars have the potential to be great but are let down by quality nigglies and cost cutting. I don't have enough time to list all the issues I have had with the BA XT and BF2 XR8 I owned but moving to a Focus the only issue I had was with the stereo dying.

The FG is a great car in G6ET guise (except for some interior fit and finish issues and questionable materials used but that covers the whole range) but the rest of the range simply isn't there yet and I can't see why Ford couldn't do it properly. They've been building Falcons forever.

Until they lift their game my money goes to imported Fords or other imported makes. I wouldn't buy a current Holden.

[Wally]

Originally Posted by jphanna

Why is there a perception that aussie built cars are lacking in quality? Is this just aimed at Holden and Ford, because aussie built Toyotas never had a problem with quality.

If there is a problem, is it the design and manufacture of the individual components or the actual process of assembly that’s letting SOME aussie built cars down?

What about the decades of crap quality cars coming out of Italy, England, Korea and USA? Is it only the Japs and Germans that have the good reputation for quality?

I think there is a legacy dating back to late sixties/early seventies when Australian cars were austere and fitted with mechanicals that required annoying repairs (leaking rocker covers, burning points, failing starter motors, etc). Along came jap cars with reclining bucket seats, four on the floor, electric aerials, carpeted floors, economic fuel consumption and reliable power plants.

You only have to go down the wreckers to see how well local cars fair in the longivity stakes when it comes to seat mechanisms, vinyls, etc, with many imports suffering severe fabric fatigue (especially Mercs, BMW and Volvos).

I can't talk with any authority about the FG because I haven't owned one, but if it's anything like the VE (and I suggest it would be) then it is definitely stacks up well against imports. I have turned over my cars every three years or so for the last 30+ years and everytime the local cars are better than the last. I have an import euro in the garage and it is a bastard child. I have had an american import and it was also problematic, I even had a Nissan GT-R and while initally thrilling ...... well I shouldn't knock a legend.

[cycle myth]

From the data I've seen the local cars are at the bad end of the scale when it comes to defects and faults.

The Japanese - particularly Subaru and Nissan consistently do very well.

There is no doubt a value call comes into this and certainly can't match the economies of scale and resources other firms have.

I have owned many Fords and have loved them however looking past my blue blood bias it needs to be recognised there is a lot of room to move.

[mcnews]

It would help if Ford and Holden service departments were not unprofessional and inept.

I don't really see how anyone could seriously say that quality wise a Ford or Holden 40k car is a match for a Honda or Mazda 40k car.

[jphanna]

where does the fault lie then, on the factory floor or 'pre delivery' from the place of purchase?

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by jphanna

where does the fault lie then, on the factory floor or 'pre delivery' from the place of purchase?

I think the fault is that the entire Australian automotive industry is completely overwhelmed; our industry simply does not produce enough cars to develop any sort of economies of scale that benefit production; the flow on effect is that our Manufacturers need to find ways to increase margins and profit share to remain globally competitive and the way they do this is by cost cutting at all stages of production and support.

Interestingly I would however argue that the ultimate pursuit of cost cutting is somewhat more predominant trait with our American owned manufacturers; in my humble opinion what had been rolling out of Toyota's Altona (at least until 2005) and Mitsubishi's Tonsley Park (From 2000-2005) had been of a better quality than what was being pumped out of Broadmeadows and Elizabeth.

The accusation that Holden and Ford may have been far too aggressive with cost cutting measures when compared to Mitsubishi and Toyota is probably also supported by the fact that our once Big 4 now Big 3 continue to share many of the same parts suppliers. In theory for instance many of the trim parts on a "higher quality" 2004 Camry may have been made by the same trim company that supplies Ford and Holden.

If you want to see just how small fry our car manufacturing is on a global scale, we rate as the 28th country on the list for quantity of vehicles manufactured globally; Iran and the Czech Republic build more cars than we do!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ile_production

Obviously this excludes some component suppliers that do (or did) supply other countries, such as Nissan's gearbox manufacturing in Melbourne, Holden's engine assembly plant and tier 1 & 2 suppliers such as DSI that did once supply Ssangyong.

[jphanna]

the difference between us and iran or czech is that we have designed and built our cars to suit our unique needs. they may only assemble cars that are designed for other countries.

our first falcon was a direct copy of the USA version, and look what happened to that thing on our roads, the suspension collapsed. since then ford has tailored the falcon chassis for aussie roads. how many iran cars are designed, built, and made for thier road conditions?

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by jphanna

the difference between us and iran or czech is that we have designed and built our cars to suit our unique needs.

Our needs are not that unique; proof of point more people now buy cars not built here than cars built here; more people appear to find greater satisfaction from a mid sized Hiroshima special than Broadmeadow's finest.

What is unique to Australia is an automotive industry surviving off a shoe-string budget, run by cost accountants in the face of global rationalisation, dealing with a limited choice of suppliers, whilst selling cars to a backwater market, resulting in an at best "average" build quality (or at least perception thereof) and ultimately doomed to failure within 2 decades unless something drastically changes. /rant/

[Jondalar]

I agree with mcnews, there is a HUGE gulf between Ford service depts and BMW service Depts. It's not just the far more luxurious surroundings, the staff that you deal with work to a MUCH higher level of professionalism and presentation etc leave nothing to be desired. Mazda are also quite superior in this regard. Of course the trade off is you pay more at either of those than you do at Ford. BMW mitigates this with 25,000km service intervals (roughly, as they tell you when they need service).

I really think if Ford spent a few hundred more on the car they could build something much closer in plastics quality to the best out there.

Oh and don't even get me started on the number of IMPORTED cars running around with Aussie flags on around Australia day. What a bunch of hypocrites!

[chevypower]

American and Australian cars were crappy quality in the 90s! VN Commodore, EA Falcon, and the cheaply made Chryslers, Cadillacs and Taurus - they were all as bad as each other. They have all been improving greatly over the past 5 or so years. Toyotas are only reliable cos they have nothing in them. Air is also reliable.....

[jphanna]

i recon ford would prefer if aussies get an assembled in aust, version of the Taurus (USA) or Mondeo(UK), instead of our 'own' falcon which owes nothing to any vehicle in the ford world, other than the badge.

every time they try, the aussies shun them time and time again. maybe its that thing we call RWD that is holding them back? you have to wonder if the Aurion had RWD whether it would kick commodores azz as well.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Jondalar

I agree with mcnews, there is a HUGE gulf between Ford service depts and BMW service Depts. It's not just the far more luxurious surroundings, the staff that you deal with work to a MUCH higher level of professionalism and presentation etc leave nothing to be desired. Mazda are also quite superior in this regard. Of course the trade off is you pay more at either of those than you do at Ford. BMW mitigates this with 25,000km service intervals (roughly, as they tell you when they need service).

I really think if Ford spent a few hundred more on the car they could build something much closer in plastics quality to the best out there.

Oh and don't even get me started on the number of IMPORTED cars running around with Aussie flags on around Australia day. What a bunch of hypocrites!

Mazda service.... They stole money from the console of my wifes car, charged for items they DIDN'T do (not once but twice) and denied it till i showed them it wasn't possible... (wheel weights covered in dust and mud yet charged for wheel balancing, old wiper blades still fitted yet charged an arm and leg for new ones)....
This was from one of Vics biggest "most reputable" mazda dealerships... TWICE! not just a once off miss.....
I won't use that dealership for anything ever again...
BMW/Merc can provide better service because you pay for it in the purchase price....

[SB076]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Mazda service.... They stole money from the console of my wifes car, charged for items they DIDN'T do (not once but twice) and denied it till i showed them it wasn't possible... (wheel weights covered in dust and mud yet charged for wheel balancing, old wiper blades still fitted yet charged an arm and leg for new ones)....
This was from one of Vics biggest "most reputable" mazda dealerships... TWICE! not just a once off miss.....
I won't use that dealership for anything ever again...
BMW/Merc can provide better service because you pay for it in the purchase price....

Even the service cost - mate just had his Beamer serviced, lets just say he paid double the most expensive service I have had with Ford. Benz is similar

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by SB076

Even the service cost - mate just had his Beamer serviced, lets just say he paid double the most expensive service I have had with Ford. Benz is similar

Yep.. had the same experience with Benz.. you get what you pay for.


You pay peanuts you get monkeys...

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Dave_au

The Australian supply of C Class Mercs once came from South Africa; I was told that these switched back to Germany, at least during 2007 when we were in the market.

I was going off my mate who was the warranty officer for Mercedes (he still works there in a different department). I'll ask him to clarify so I can get more info.

[phoon]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Ive worked very closely with the main suppliers of plastic components to the car manufacturers here, they'll happily tell you they can make far better quality components that fit and last far better than they currently supply, but it comes at a cost, when the car companies will squeeze, haggle, bludgeon suppliers over cents in a part price every bit of savings counts....

Dont believe everything the raw material suppliers tell you, I have been involved in the plastics industry for 28 years, having worked in the car industry as a supplier and many other different industries in all styles of plastics and processes from injection moulding, to blow molding to fabrication to extrusion using all types of polymers from commodity plastics to high grade engineering plastics. I have dealt with all of the suppliers from all over the world. The car manufacturers do not compromise on the polymers they use when they design vehicles, the materials are very carefully specced, whether they be a euro, jap or aussie cars and they all use the same polymers for each part of the vehicle. The cost of using a cheaper material would be negligable per part for different polymers. Yes the car manufacturers will screw the suppliers on price, but they wont deviate from a specced material to something cheaper, it just doesnt work like that, believe me.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by phoon

Dont believe everything the raw material suppliers tell you, I have been involved in the plastics industry for 28 years, having worked in the car industry as a supplier and many other different industries in all styles of plastics and processes from injection moulding, to blow molding to fabrication to extrusion using all types of polymers from commodity plastics to high grade engineering plastics. I have dealt with all of the suppliers from all over the world. The car manufacturers do not compromise on the polymers they use when they design vehicles, the materials are very carefully specced, whether they be a euro, jap or aussie cars and they all use the same polymers for each part of the vehicle. The cost of using a cheaper material would be negligable per part for different polymers. Yes the car manufacturers will screw the suppliers on price, but they wont deviate from a specced material to something cheaper, it just doesnt work like that, believe me.

My comments were more related to design and tolerances of the components and the integrity of them, not so much the grades of materials, although there is a painted surface to most plastic components that is compromised on price. Tooling is also a big part.

[mcnews]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Mazda service.... They stole money from the console of my wifes car, charged for items they DIDN'T do ....

She-it that's no good. The dealings I have had with Mazda even buying second hand are so far beyond anything I have seen at the Ford dealerships I have dealt with. Obviously that Mazda dealer was unprofessional compared to who we dealt with in Perth. Please let me know via here or PM which Mazda dealership that was so I can avoid now we are Victorian based.

[phoon]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

My comments were more related to design and tolerances of the components and the integrity of them, not so much the grades of materials, although there is a painted surface to most plastic components that is compromised on price. Tooling is also a big part.

I misunderstood your post, you are correct though, the highest cost of any plastic part is the mould (tooling) but with the design software and cnc's that cut the tooling available these days, it would take a very incompetent designer or toolmaker to get it wrong.

[phoon]

Originally Posted by mrbaxr6t

mate a massive part of this problem is the climate, sunlight destroys the chemical bonds in plastic weakening and softening it, couple that with the massive amount of heat that builds in the cabins in Australian sun its a two prong plastic killer, with cabin temperatures high enough to severely soften plastic, with cabin temps in the 50's this is also plenty enough heat to soften it. Trust me this is nothing new. I have seen porsches only a couple of years old and the interior is screwed plastic worn and discolored and misshapen, seats just looking like they are 30 years old. It is very difficult to get plastics that are able to withstand the conditions here.

I have to disagree with you here, the softening point (not the melt point) is around 110c for most commodity plastics and higher for engineering plastics. 99 % of plastics require a drying process before they are moulded which is usually set at around 75c for 4 to 8 hours, this is done in a dessicant dryer and it is just to get the moisture out of the polymer and doesnt soften the polymer at all. Depending on the grade of material being moulded, the actual melt temps range from 180c to 280c and while polymers used in cabins of cars will have UV stabilisers in them, any colours used will fade in direct sunlight over time unless painted. I might add that I personally dont think that the build quality of aussie cars is all that bad. I think it may be a perception that dates back to the 60's and 70's.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by phoon

I might add that I personally dont think that the build quality of aussie cars is all that bad. I think it may be a perception that dates back to the 60's and 70's.

What you will find is that people will look really hard on the cars to find issues. Yet on a euro or jap car it will be perceived as top quality and having a look will not be as important.

The Mazda SUV and the escape are the same car yet in satisfaction of quality tests the Mazda always scores higher.