Wheels Jan 2010 - F6E v Senator Signature v Merc - Page 2

The G6ET Spot · 12-12-2009, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

The AMG once on road would be double the price no?

No!! Try FROM $234,000 plus on roads

phillyc · 12-12-2009, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

No one trades FPVs on HSVs?

I wonder how many trade HSVs on FPVs.......

What he said could easily be construed as a win for FPV. When people buy and experience an FPV they don't want to trade down on their next car by buying an HSV.

The HSV boss has essentially said that we conquest less than 2% of our sales from FPV. Based on 3000 sales pa. That is just 60 odd cars...

Like you've said flappist, wonder what the conquest rate is for FPV from HSV?

WASP · 12-12-2009, 10:57 PM

Harding is the MD and one of his jobs is to provide leadership and vision. HSV wish to position their brand as a real (and cheaper) alternative to premium European models and would therefore want any media or journalism to reflect this also. Trying to win over FPV buyers is a lost cause and would require a paradigm shift in consumer thinking to pull it off which is an expensive and high risk marketing strategy. Convincing a buyer of a used premium euro model to consider a 'new' HSV instead is a much easier sales and market exercise.

phillyc · 12-12-2009, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HSV Managing Director Phil Harding

"FPV is not a rival for HSV" told Wheels.

So, if that is the case. Then i might just wade into the V8 vs i6T debate. With a different spin on it.

Current logic assumes that all FPV & HSV sales are competing.

V8
3000 for HSV
1300 for FPV

i6T
700 for FPV

Based off those numbers, 4300 of 5000 sales are for V8's. 700 for I6T's. That would suggest a split of 86% v8 and 14% i6T.

If the two brands aren't competing (yeah right), then the real split (where the option is available. ie FPV only) gives a more accurate indication of where the market is heading. That says 35% of sales are for the i6T.

phillyc · 12-12-2009, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wheels Mag

After two false starts because HSV pulled its car at the 11th hour, we finally managed to drive the E2

They must've kept forgetting to put the special tune in the ECU. They even forgot to do it this time?!

R-Design · 12-12-2009, 11:14 PM

Personally I think Harding is trying to achieve a few things with his stance regarding FPV not being a direct competitor to HSV.

1. Add pedigree to the HSV Product: If HSV is considered a worthy rival to European brands they can justify higher prices and potentially attract a more affluent clientele. An article comparing the Senator to a AMG would have suited this modus operandi perfectly.

2. Remove any stigma over poor performance compared to the FPV product: As much die hard fans wont cross shop a HSV to an FPV, they may hold off on a purchase if a model perceived as being a poor performer. If the E2 isn’t seen as a worthy successor to the model it replaced or for that matter superior to the equivalent FPV, why would you upgrade? Not comparing the E2 to the F6E would remove any risk in this area.

It’s funny to see the games manufactures play in an attempt to get what they want. In the end the HSV was considered a better buy over the FPV but you wonder how much HSV’s posturing contributed to the result.

Deco28 · 12-12-2009, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVS Super Pursuit

And more to the point, FPV customer's are astute enough not to cross the floor and buy the HSV product. Phil Harding should be concerned about the lack of interest in his product, rather than seeing it as an endorsement of HSV's product. Many peope step out of the European performance vehicles, poor resale being one of them.

FPV and HSV are natural rivals. To deny so is ignorant. Typical bogan mentality.

Though the GTS waiting list is out to april, there is no demand. Shame that.

Should add, MOST GTS's ordered also had the bigger brakes.

snappy · 12-12-2009, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deco28

Though the GTS waiting list is out to april, there is no demand. Shame that.

Should add, MOST GTS's ordered also had the bigger brakes.

Fair comment but pointless , There could be number of reasons how many can the build a day there maybe supply issues expecially if the all want bigger brakes .

I know it sounds good for hsv . But its possible the reality of it is not.

Now go back to ls1 forum deco and find out for us

phillyc · 13-12-2009, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deco28

Though the GTS waiting list is out to april, there is no demand. Shame that.

Should add, MOST GTS's ordered also had the bigger brakes.

Look, thought you were fair dinkum. But now, not so sure about your posts. Seem to be ignorant of the actual situation.

I myself just perused LS1 and had a look at their forum. They have a thread going about how they aren't seeing many new E2? cars on the roads. Only in dealer lots!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by gasguz@LS1

Noticed Watson Holden had 14 E2's for immediate delivery in todays Herald Sun, if any one was looking to find one...
6 E2 R8 Clubsports
2 E2 GTS
2 E2 Tourer R8's
2 E2 Senator Sigs
2 E2 Grange

Kevin Dennis in Sunshine also has 12 E2's for immediate delivery, 6 of them manuals, some have leather, sunroof & satnav. 2 of the GTS's have premium brakes.

That is 26 brand spankers HSV cars sitting there in 2 dealers.

I didnt say people were not buying them, there are a few but they are not buying them in the numbers of the past. I still have only seen about 3 of them on the road. Maybe its the dealers who have bought all of the stock expecting to be able to clear them a bit quicker than they have.

WASP · 13-12-2009, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phillyc

I myself just perused LS1 and had a look at their forum. They have a thread going about how they aren't seeing many new E2? cars on the roads. Only in dealer lots!!!

http://www.carsguide.com.au/site/new...s_waiting_list

Deco28 · 13-12-2009, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDAA

http://www.carsguide.com.au/site/new...s_waiting_list

Thnaks for posting that mate.

Sorry phillyC, I was just saying what I read on Carsguide.

This may be one of those do you always believe what you read moments someone was saying I had before. But I'm young, I tend to trust publications unless proven otherwise.

I do belong to ls1 forums and have seen that topic to, but for me, my experience, I've seen more on the roads then on the dealer lot, but I don't live close to a capital city.

snappy · 13-12-2009, 03:16 AM

No question really Hsv will sell cars they allways have .
Only time will tell truly how well they will do . Its only early and the should have a full order list but its keeping it selling . I think that will determine if the styling of it is a sucess or failure .
As for the quarter mile times the shocking the hsv is the only one thats seems on the money that is assuming it is running similar times to the E1 .

imugli · 13-12-2009, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Are HSV and FPV REALLY competitors?

I guess it depends on how strongly you believe in brand tribalism and brand loyalty......

I often think they're more competitors in school yards and pubs than in the marketplace..

I tend to agree here.

MOST people who buy an FPV wouldn't look twice at a HSV and vice versa. There will, of course, be exceptions to the rule but I think for the most part it would be fair to say.

Cabbage · 13-12-2009, 11:45 AM

I think you can see that Harding doesn't want HSV compared against colonial rival FPV but rather compared and considered as a rival to the big Euro's BMW, Mercedes, Audi etc. Harding is trying to get HSV seen a a prestige brand. The reality is HSV has more in common and more rivalry with FPV in production, pubs, the schoolyard, motor magazines, households, pricing and most Aussies wanting to buy a decently priced performance vehicle. Not many brands compare with FPV and HSV in bang for your buck.

Cobra · 13-12-2009, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RAPID XR8

No!! Try FROM $234,000 plus on roads

Nearly 4 times as much hey! Probably 3 and a half times. Nice car, but for nearly quarter of a million...

4Vman · 13-12-2009, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobra

Nearly 4 times as much hey! Probably 3 and a half times. Nice car, but for nearly quarter of a million...

Add a couple of options like wheels, stereo, seats etc and watch the bill climb rapidly... We're spoilt with our option costs.

mcnews · 13-12-2009, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Are HSV and FPV REALLY competitors?

I guess it depends on how strongly you believe in brand tribalism and brand loyalty.......

Well V8 Supercars thrives on exactly that formula, I find it all a bit childish really. But it does seem to be the driving force for many Ford/Holden tribalists.

mcnews · 13-12-2009, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phillyc

What he said could easily be construed as a win for FPV. When people buy and experience an FPV they don't want to trade down on their next car by buying an HSV.

That is laughable really, some people think like that, I personally couldn't give a toss what badge it has, I will buy the best product available across the two on the day I choose to buy my next car. That is why 3.5 years ago I ended up in a BF F6, not because it was an FPV. If I wanted to buy a V8 now it would be a HSV, as after driving a 315 GT this week in all real world driving situations it still has nowhere near as much mid-range as my BF F6, let alone the FG F6. I wanted to buy an 8 this time, but I just couldn't live with the weak delivery below 4000rpm that the current Ford offering still suffers with (fantastic above 4k though), thus if/when I decide to put the money down it will again be F6 or HSV. It will purely come down to which one floats my boat next time I drive them and who offers the best deal.

So I guess all my comments there shoot big holes through what that bloke from HSV was saying in his comments in that article doesn't it....

T3ts50 · 13-12-2009, 12:34 PM

A mate of mine just picked up a dealer demo E2 R8. The reason for his choice? Price. He initially wanted the R8 wagon but was told there is a 3 month wait.

His second choice? An F6. He purely chose the R8 on price as it was 62k on the road.

Another mate of mine purchased an F6 over a Clubby for wife aswell, I might add that he has no brand bias.

I dont know how anyone can see that HSV/FPV arent competing.

4Vman · 13-12-2009, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnews

Well V8 Supercars thrives on exactly that formula, I find it all a bit childish really. But it does seem to be the driving force for many Ford/Holden tribalists.

Yes they do, or aleast used to..
The thing about stronger brand tribalism is it means even less cross shopping.... The "brand faithful" will never be swayed to the other side.

FPV/HSV will be more determined to keep their current owners in the brand by encouraging them to update regularly and attracting new customers to the brand, i seriously doubt they'd be putting too much hope in stealing sales from each other.. It will happen, but it wont be a large %....
I think now they're both looking at drawing new customers from other less australian tribalised brands.
FPV have managed to gain some incremental sales from the jap/turbo hotrods with the F6, which is a good thing.

bingoTE50 · 13-12-2009, 01:51 PM

HSV pitching to the Euro crowd...please......How many drivers of euro sedans actually buy cars because of outright performance ,and which of them would put up with the pornstar body kits,loud exhausts .
A lot of euros are being sold because of ,perceived quality,efficient diesels,and the price gaps are not as great as they used to be...
I also think the social circles buyers of upmarket Euros move in ,are a bit different from the FPV/HSV buyer , and perhaps need the poseur factor...
And no way known if the GTS or F6E beat the MERC in the performance tests,would a potential Merc buyer look at that and say to himself ,geez I better buy that HSV... it wont happen ,the person who can afford the Merc has a standard to uphold with friends and family.Just like he wouldn't shop at Lowes for his suits..

Chopped · 13-12-2009, 02:03 PM

Do WRX or EVO fanboys cross shop ?

Do Ferrari or Porsche fanboys cross shop ?

Do NRL or ARL fanboys cross shop ?

Do PS3 or XBOX fanboys cross shop ?

Do Non-Cross dressers or Cross dresser fanboys cross shop ?

Cabbage · 13-12-2009, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnews

That is laughable really, some people think like that, I personally couldn't give a toss what badge it has, I will buy the best product available across the two on the day I choose to buy my next car. That is why 3.5 years ago I ended up in a BF F6, not because it was an FPV. If I wanted to buy a V8 now it would be a HSV, as after driving a 315 GT this week in all real world driving situations it still has nowhere near as much mid-range as my BF F6, let alone the FG F6. I wanted to buy an 8 this time, but I just couldn't live with the weak delivery below 4000rpm that the current Ford offering still suffers with (fantastic above 4k though), thus if/when I decide to put the money down it will again be F6 or HSV. It will purely come down to which one floats my boat next time I drive them and who offers the best deal.

So I guess all my comments there shoot big holes through what that bloke from HSV was saying in his comments in that article doesn't it....

There are those that will only drive Ford or Holden, FPV or HSV, but as mcnews shows, there are a large number of people who will simply buy the best HSV or FPV that suits their needs at the time. Harding is being a bit cute. If you're looking for a high performance large sedan around the $50,000 - 90,000, you can buy a base model Euro or a highly optioned high performance FPV or HSV. For this vehicle type and this price range there really are only two natrural competitiors within Australia, FPV and HSV.

Perhaps Harding doesn't want HSV comparing itself to FPV because it has little or no advantage over FPV. When HSV compares itself against the big Euro's it can always compete on price, size and options available at that price. However I think Harding's reluctance is more to do with positioning HSV as a prestige brand with other more expensive makes.

1TUFFUTE · 13-12-2009, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopped

Do WRX or EVO fanboys cross shop ?

Do Ferrari or Porsche fanboys cross shop ?

Do NRL or ARL fanboys cross shop ?

Do PS3 or XBOX fanboys cross shop ?

Do Non-Cross dressers or Cross dresser fanboys cross shop ?

BWAHAHAHA someone should send this to him...thatd shut him up...case closed. :evil3:

aualright · 14-12-2009, 12:30 AM

Harding is your usual GM toss who wants to believe they are competing with the big boys. The fact he mentions the Audis, etc means he is trying to align the garbage that HSV has with something way out of their league. Sounds like a marketing ploy more than anything, and Wheels kindly obliged.

****

Bent8 · 14-12-2009, 03:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

Can you get a proper manual with the AMG?

AMG's are auto only cars...but they are 7-speed dual clutch units with paddle shifters.

The 400m time for the E63 is way off the mark!....these cars will do 12.6sec passes without even trying....or maybe they want us to believe that a 518hp AMG monster is not all that great when compared to our Aussie muscle?...

merlin · 14-12-2009, 08:18 AM

TURBO LAG - BWHAHAHAHAHAHA

What are these guys smoking? I have driven heaps of F6 and XR6T's - zero of them have ever had any turbo lag whatsoever. The turbo spools very early and even off boost you still have 4 litres under the right foot.

Some of these journo's are stuck in the 1980's.

merlin · 14-12-2009, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bingoTE50

HSV pitching to the Euro crowd...please......How many drivers of euro sedans actually buy cars because of outright performance ,and which of them would put up with the pornstar body kits,loud exhausts .
A lot of euros are being sold because of ,perceived quality,efficient diesels,and the price gaps are not as great as they used to be...
I also think the social circles buyers of upmarket Euros move in ,are a bit different from the FPV/HSV buyer , and perhaps need the poseur factor...
And no way known if the GTS or F6E beat the MERC in the performance tests,would a potential Merc buyer look at that and say to himself ,geez I better buy that HSV... it wont happen ,the person who can afford the Merc has a standard to uphold with friends and family.Just like he wouldn't shop at Lowes for his suits..

You make a good point - I know many such people that can only buy a Euro badge because of how they wish to be percieved. Also works the other way, many people don't want a Euro as they think it will make them look snobby.

Interestingly I have been working in Sydney Western suburbs the last 12 months and noticed huges amounts of Ford/Holden (FPV/HSV's). The last 2 months I have been working in the affluent Eastern Suburbs - don't think I have seen any FPV/HSV's at all. 99% of cars are Audi's, Mercs, BMW's ect. It really is a different world out here.

4Vman · 14-12-2009, 08:46 AM

Its fair to say the F6E, GTE and Senator are aimed at the Euro performance crowd (or atleast create a euro performance look) where refinement and understated, sophisticated styling is preferred, whether they're a realistic option is open to debate but the Senator in particular does look allot more sophisticated and refined than its "boy racer" R8/GTS brothers, the differentiation is clear and pronounced..

Its a pity the F6E/GTE didn't get unique bars like the Senator did to round the package off, but i understand the cost implications..

A guy in my area had a VE GTS for a few years and now just bought a C63... so it works both ways.

**Polyal** · 14-12-2009, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

FPV have managed to gain some incremental sales from the jap/turbo hotrods with the F6, which is a good thing.

Personally I think this is FPV's competitive advantage, even though the sales figures are not showing that yet.

HSV must be ****ed they dont have something similar to attract different buying groups, keeping your current buyers is one thing but if your not growing then your going backwards.

If people come from outside into FPV through the F6, they might then look at the GT once its time to upgrade, then the circle continues. Well, in theory anyway.

Agreed the euro buyer might come down to domestic stuff, but this would be very rare. The GTE/F6E would be aimed at the person who wants something local but without the fan fair of the other badges.

At the end of the day if we could all afford AMG's we would be driving them Im sure, despite the blue blood in our veins.

I just find it humorous to think a FPV's can spank some exotic examples on the piddly budget they have, thats where I would get my enjoyment.