Three Aussie cars ruled out of award.....

[Poetic Justice]

That or Holden bought their way in

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by Buntz

I really don't know what you expect in a Ford enthusiasts forum based in Australia? Porsche worship?


Nah....

nope nothing to do with Porsche.
Just have a look at my previous comments in this thread to get a better understanding at where I was heading with my comments.

I just laugh at some of the comments here.
Many here claim Wheels and Motor to be biased towards Holden.
Funnily enough if I am correct the Commodore hasn't been eligible for COTY since 2006 when it won (the last Holden to win).
Even with the Series 2, the introduction of the smaller V6 and the sportswagon hasn't allowed them to compete. In saying that though Ford has been represented pretty much every year by Focus, Mondeo, Fiesta, Falcon, etc. I think that is something very positive that a broad range of their vehicles are considered for the award each year and moreso are at the pointy end of the field each time. I urge people to go and have a look at the COTY history over the last few years to see.

Still that isn't good enough and yells of bias continue, yet even though in 2002 and 2004 ford won (as I said it seems this was only time WCOTY was considered relevant).

It seems to be with all publications, Drive is rubbish until a Ford wins.

I understand members bias after all it is a Ford forum but the continual claims that every journo is biased is getting a little tiresome. yes there are some that are questionable but not all should be tarred the same. Many are quite good with their reviews and yes criticise products that we all like but are they wrong? Ford are far from perfect with their execution of their products but this constructive criticism leads them to further improve the product.

Referring to your Porsche comment, yes I like Porsche but I like many other makes including Ford. I have a bias to Ford but would not make that the single justification for buying my car. Should I scream and throw a tantrum because Porsche didn't win WCOTY?

[Windsor220]

I've said it once and I'll say it again. If it wins the Wheels car of the year then its guaranteed to be an unreliable pig in the future. Just look at some of the models there even the Ford ones. Best not to win it.

[mik]

wheels criteria sucks !

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by Windsor220

I've said it once and I'll say it again. If it wins the Wheels car of the year then its guaranteed to be an unreliable pig in the future. Just look at some of the models there even the Ford ones. Best not to win it.

Uhmmmm...4 cars have been mentioned as being lemons winning the award in the 49 year history....odds appear to be against this theory. Personally the P76 V8 was a bloody nice car, ahead of the time...The 6cyl one was a death trap on wheels.....Fuel line placement issue there, amongst other things.


All manufacturers produce cars that have a lemon or 2 amongst them....Hear stories about it all the time. This being the case, no car should win the car of the year award because there is a guaranteed lemon amongst the batch.

Yes it's unfortunate 2 Toyotas and the Falcon were left out of the award running....But cars have to be eliminated and people that enjoy those brands are going to be disappointed...along with being disappointed the opposition win the award...But can't please everyone.

Finally....No one can predict whether a car is going to be a lemon in the future....If we could, it'd be bloody nice...Save a lot of heartaches...But we can't so we have to deal with it as it comes

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Gaz

How many volts have been sold??

was thinking the same thing. isn't it an australian award, this wheels COTY award, and to be eligible, cars have to reach a certain number of sales. how does a car that isn't even released yet, make it into the race??

[Windsor220]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

Uhmmmm...4 cars have been mentioned as being lemons winning the award in the 49 year history....odds appear to be against this theory. Personally the P76 V8 was a bloody nice car, ahead of the time...The 6cyl one was a death trap on wheels.....Fuel line placement issue there, amongst other things.


All manufacturers produce cars that have a lemon or 2 amongst them....Hear stories about it all the time. This being the case, no car should win the car of the year award because there is a guaranteed lemon amongst the batch.

Yes it's unfortunate 2 Toyotas and the Falcon were left out of the award running....But cars have to be eliminated and people that enjoy those brands are going to be disappointed...along with being disappointed the opposition win the award...But can't please everyone.

Finally....No one can predict whether a car is going to be a lemon in the future....If we could, it'd be bloody nice...Save a lot of heartaches...But we can't so we have to deal with it as it comes

P76, Camira, TM Magna, VN Commodore, BA Falcon, RX8, Territory and VE would be the obvious ones there. Quite a few others are bordering on lemon territory.

[Ford_The_Win]

Originally Posted by Windsor220

P76, Camira, TM Magna, VN Commodore, BA Falcon, RX8, Territory and VE would be the obvious ones there. Quite a few others are bordering on lemon territory.

I think a few years ago they admitted they shouldn't have awarded it to the VN (rolling coffin hackjob) and given it to the Honda Accord (bulletproof epitome of '80s rice) instead, so at least one of them knows their judgement is way off. The Magna was actually quite modern compared to the archaic XF and VK when it came out.

[FPVGT500]

Originally Posted by Ugg

At least Holden see electric/hybrids on the horizon and are doing something about it.

Sorry to say it but Ford has it's head in the sand on electric cars in Aus.

No electric or Hybrid plans deserve a slap on the wrist.

You must be snorting something if you think electric/hybrids are the future as someone posted earlier there nothing but a con....

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by Wretched

nope nothing to do with Porsche.
Just have a look at my previous comments in this thread to get a better understanding at where I was heading with my comments.

I just laugh at some of the comments here.
Many here claim Wheels and Motor to be biased towards Holden.
Funnily enough if I am correct the Commodore hasn't been eligible for COTY since 2006 when it won (the last Holden to win).
Even with the Series 2, the introduction of the smaller V6 and the sportswagon hasn't allowed them to compete. In saying that though Ford has been represented pretty much every year by Focus, Mondeo, Fiesta, Falcon, etc. I think that is something very positive that a broad range of their vehicles are considered for the award each year and moreso are at the pointy end of the field each time. I urge people to go and have a look at the COTY history over the last few years to see.

Still that isn't good enough and yells of bias continue, yet even though in 2002 and 2004 ford won (as I said it seems this was only time WCOTY was considered relevant).

It seems to be with all publications, Drive is rubbish until a Ford wins.

I understand members bias after all it is a Ford forum but the continual claims that every journo is biased is getting a little tiresome. yes there are some that are questionable but not all should be tarred the same. Many are quite good with their reviews and yes criticise products that we all like but are they wrong? Ford are far from perfect with their execution of their products but this constructive criticism leads them to further improve the product.

Referring to your Porsche comment, yes I like Porsche but I like many other makes including Ford. I have a bias to Ford but would not make that the single justification for buying my car. Should I scream and throw a tantrum because Porsche didn't win WCOTY?

Yeas but don't be sceptical of Journalistic bias. It's out there.

All in all I find GoAuto to be mostly fair and unbiased. Though they don't do any awards, That doesn't really matter, as good review can have the same impact.

I'm not sure how many of here have boasted 2002, and 2004 WCOTY... but maybe you should have a search and find out for us. That would be interesting to see how many forumers have changed their opinion.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by FPVGT500

You must be snorting something if you think electric/hybrids are the future as someone posted earlier there nothing but a con....

You may want to rethink that.

In May 2008, US cumulative Prius sales reached the milestone 1 million.

The 2 million global sales milestone was reached in September 2010.

As of October 2012, a total of 2.8 million Prii have been sold worldwide.

[prydey]

yeah, all those americans who are so genuine, they have one parked in the garage next to their hummer

[ebxr8240]

Volts and elect cars are for rich people to make them feel good..

[Fiesta_Man69]

Had a glance at the latest Motor in Coles while the Misses was doing the shopping.... There's a review of the F12 and Aventador... Motor rates the Lambo a 6 out of 10, absolutely hammers it. Lol... While the rest of the motoring world loves the thing, the good old Motor/Wheels (same publisher, website) digs into it... Shows how irrelevant these publications are these days -hey, at least they're good for a giggle at the shops (cos I sure as hell wouldn't pay coin for it)..

But come to think of it, considering Wheels rated the 86 far superior to the Porsche Cayman, and then the Falcon EB beat the 86 by 2 secs round a circuit in Motor, us Ford fans can use these reviews to "prove" that the EB is better than a Porsche Cayman... Lol

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Ugg

You may want to rethink that.

In May 2008, US cumulative Prius sales reached the milestone 1 million.

The 2 million global sales milestone was reached in September 2010.

As of October 2012, a total of 2.8 million Prii have been sold worldwide.

They did a survey of hybrid owners in the US and asked them if they would buy another hybrid as their next purchase. Very few said they would.

I think once the initial "everybody look at me, i'm saving the planet, aren't I so hip" novalty wears off then they will quickly move onto something else.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

They did a survey of hybrid owners in the US and asked them if they would buy another hybrid as their next purchase. Very few said they would.

.

They surveyed over a million people?

Cool...can you please give me a link to that?

[davessleepin351]

The Volt will probably recharge faster and last longer then my iPhone.

[Luke Plaizier]

Originally Posted by Fiesta_Man69

But come to think of it, considering Wheels rated the 86 far superior to the Porsche Cayman, and then the Falcon EB beat the 86 by 2 secs round a circuit in Motor, us Ford fans can use these reviews to "prove" that the EB is better than a Porsche Cayman... Lol

On the Letters to the Editor in the following issue, the magazine admitted that they misprinted the Lap Time for the Ecoboost - that time was in XR6T Territory. The EB was much slower than reported, and on par with a normal XR6 around the same track.


Lukeyson

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Ugg

They surveyed over a million people?

Cool...can you please give me a link to that?

Obviously they didn't survey every hybrid owner, like all surveys they question a % of them to get a decent bank of results and get a percentage result at the end.

Can't remember where I read it, just google hybrid owners survey or something. It was only a few months ago.

[Resurrection]

Now ACP has been bought by the Germans maybe they will give the Australian magazine industry a good kick in the pants. Wheels first.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACP_Magazines

[zilo]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Obviously they didn't survey every hybrid owner, like all surveys they question a % of them to get a decent bank of results and get a percentage result at the end.

Can't remember where I read it, just google hybrid owners survey or something. It was only a few months ago.

It depends on who you survey.believe it or not a lot of hybrids get more miles per gallon in their city cycle than their country cycle.

So it depends what type of driving you do.

For city folk its a no brainer.

For example...

"Subcompact: The 2012 Toyota Prius ($18,950) gets 53 mpg city/46 mpg highway"


What I am saying is if you survey city folk they will respond differently to those doing a freeway commute.

53 miles per gallon in the city isn't to be scoffed at.....

[FGII-XR6]

don't worry about it tree huggers will do anything or say anything to justify "green" cars wait till batteries start to pile up disposal will be an enviromental nightmare

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Obviously they didn't survey every hybrid owner, like all surveys they question a % of them to get a decent bank of results and get a percentage result at the end.

Can't remember where I read it, just google hybrid owners survey or something. It was only a few months ago.

[flooded one]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

don't worry about it tree huggers will do anything or say anything to justify "green" cars wait till batteries start to pile up disposal will be an enviromental nightmare

what is the life cycle of hybrid batteries?? i often have wondered this

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Ugg

"Subcompact: The 2012 Toyota Prius ($18,950) gets 53 mpg city/46 mpg highway"


What I am saying is if you survey city folk they will respond differently to those doing a freeway commute.

53 miles per gallon in the city isn't to be scoffed at.....

Really?

Prius gets better economy in the city than on the open road? Well that says a lot about its performance if wind drag causes that much grief.

The cheapest prius in Australia is $28k.
A Fiesta which is similar in size but a bit more powerful is $18k.

The petrol fiesta is rated at 6.1 l/100 so if petrol is $2/litre and you stick the $10k saved into a box (as opposed to the savings of not financeing the $10k) then you will be able to buy 5,000 litres of petrol which at an average of 6.1 will allow you to drive 82,000 km for free.

Now of course the prius at it's incredible 3.9l/100 will have only cost $6396 to go the same distance which is a little bit more than free.
So in real terms you will need to travel well over 100,000km before breaking even, something that city people seldom do unless of course they are taxi drivers which might be why there are so many prius taxis.

Fiesta has a diesel option which while being a bit dearer at $24k gets a much better 4.4l/100 so the difference is only 0.5l/100 or at $2/l = $1/100 or a 40,000km break even.

Of course petrol/diesel are anly about $1.50 per litre so the distances at todays prices are actually 33$ more but as the subject is city people who do not highway commute by the time they have done 100,000km it will be close to 2020.

Bottom line, and that is where all financial calculations finish, petrol is still cheaper than diesel and hybrid for all but sustained commercial operations.

* Vehicle costs and operating parameters from www.toyota.com.au and www.ford.com.au , petrol & diesel prices from www.crystalball.com.au

[tranquilized]

Originally Posted by flappist

Really?

Prius gets better economy in the city than on the open road? Well that says a lot about its performance if wind drag causes that much grief.

The cheapest prius in Australia is $28k.
A Fiesta which is similar in size but a bit more powerful is $18k.

The petrol fiesta is rated at 6.1 l/100 so if petrol is $2/litre and you stick the $10k saved into a box (as opposed to the savings of not financeing the $10k) then you will be able to buy 5,000 litres of petrol which at an average of 6.1 will allow you to drive 82,000 km for free.

Now of course the prius at it's incredible 3.9l/100 will have only cost $6396 to go the same distance which is a little bit more than free.
So in real terms you will need to travel well over 100,000km before breaking even, something that city people seldom do unless of course they are taxi drivers which might be why there are so many prius taxis.

Fiesta has a diesel option which while being a bit dearer at $24k gets a much better 4.4l/100 so the difference is only 0.5l/100 or at $2/l = $1/100 or a 40,000km break even.

Of course petrol/diesel are anly about $1.50 per litre so the distances at todays prices are actually 33$ more but as the subject is city people who do not highway commute by the time they have done 100,000km it will be close to 2020.

Bottom line, and that is where all financial calculations finish, petrol is still cheaper than diesel and hybrid for all but sustained commercial operations.

* Vehicle costs and operating parameters from www.toyota.com.au and www.ford.com.au , petrol & diesel prices from www.crystalball.com.au

Thats all well and good, but there are a few points on Hybrids and Electric cars that need to be appreciated;

Which car to buy is a decision that is usually made with the heart as much as the head. Just as an enthusiast will pay a premium for a car with far more horsepower than is actually required, an environmentallh minded person, or an early adopter tech head type person, may decide to pay a premium for a hybrid type vehicle, despite the numbers not stacking up under pragmatic scrutiny. So, all the mathmatics to figure out which car is cheaper over its life is not really relevant - hybrids and the like are not being bought to save money.

Its common knowledge I would have thought, that hybrids come into their own in the city, where as a deisel is more suited to highway driving. The official combined fuel consumption numbers on new cars in Australia is derived from a test that consists of 70% highway driving. Its quite likely that in city only driving, a hybrid will achieve significantly better results than the sticker, where as a deisel wont get near it. At highway speeds a hybrid car is completley reliant on its ICE, so if thats the kind of driving you do - obviously a hibrid isn't for you.

The whole concept of a hybrid car is only a bridge technology -they wont be around for long. Eventually electric cars will take over. Flappist you made some other good points about the electricy grid in another post and its inability to support a large fleet of electric cars. In 1915 there wouldn't have been much in the way of petrol station infastructure either. Things will change, how quickly depends on oil prices and the pace of the technology. Electric cars will be what everyone drives eventually, no doubt. Where the electricity comes from to power them, well who knows yet...

[zilo]

Originally Posted by flappist

Really?

Prius gets better economy in the city than on the open road? Well that says a lot about its performance if wind drag causes that much grief.

The cheapest prius in Australia is $28k.
A Fiesta which is similar in size but a bit more powerful is $18k.

-yes prius gets better economy in the city.
-who cares about performance in stop start traffic
- a 5 year old city car may as well have done a 100,000k as its spinning all the time. the Japs scrap them after 4 years

can't believe you are comparing to a Fiesta...that's desperation....

[flappist]

Originally Posted by tranquilized

The whole concept of a hybrid car is only a bridge technology -they wont be around for long. Eventually electric cars will take over. Flappist you made some other good points about the electricy grid in another post and its inability to support a large fleet of electric cars. In 1915 there wouldn't have been much in the way of petrol station infastructure either. Things will change, how quickly depends on oil prices and the pace of the technology. Electric cars will be what everyone drives eventually, no doubt. Where the electricity comes from to power them, well who knows yet...

Well maybe and maybe not. You are right, the problem with all vehicles is that the fuel they run on whether it be hydrocarbons, hydrogen, chemically stored electricity or whatever is limited and people seem to want to travel faster and further.

Electric motors have their positive and negative points (pun intended) but the limiting factor has been powering them.
Our rail system has been almost all electric since the 1970s (diesels run generators that run electric motors) as have many other heavy vehicles, draglines at the extreme.

While your comment about 1915 and petrol is valid I remember coal powered steam locos and horse drawn carts being uncommon 40 odd years ago.

I also remember the huge panic of the 1980s when we were going to run out of oil before the year 2000 and all cars would be electric or hydrogen or solar or run on pixie dust by then.

It will be a long time before the ordinary petrol fed reciprocating IC engine is not the major platform.

[Fiesta_Man69]

Originally Posted by Ugg

-yes prius gets better economy in the city.
-who cares about performance in stop start traffic
- a 5 year old city car may as well have done a 100,000k as its spinning all the time. the Japs scrap them after 4 years

can't believe you are comparing to a Fiesta...that's desperation....

Comparing a Prius to a Fiesta is reasonable - fuel economy is a strong selling point to both cars, and there's no a huge difference in size. The Prius is a pure #ank mobile... the environmental damage done to produce the batteries cancels out any fuel saving, the disposal of the car at the end of it's life is damaging, and real world fuel savings aren't that much over a small car... The point of buying a Prius is to be seen. That's it. Want to save money, fuel and the environment? Buy a normal petrol small car...

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Ugg

-yes prius gets better economy in the city.
-who cares about performance in stop start traffic
- a 5 year old city car may as well have done a 100,000k as its spinning all the time. the Japs scrap them after 4 years

can't believe you are comparing to a Fiesta...that's desperation....

Prius is a tiny bubble car so is a Fiesta, they are almost identical in most specifications.
There was an ad running up until recently showing Fiesta Econetic as demonstrating better fuel economy than Prius and as this is a FORD forum I thought it might be relevant.

The difference is I CAN believe you were not aware of any of that.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by flappist

Prius is a tiny bubble car so is a Fiesta, they are almost identical in most specifications.
The difference is I CAN believe you were not aware of any of that.

"Almost identical?"


The Fiesta is 1121kg....and thats being generous assuming an auto transmission...
The Prius is 1565kg........almost as much as a G6

The Fiesta has an ADR81/02 fuel consumption figure of 6.1L/100km
The Prius has an ADR81/02 fuel consumption figure of 3.9L/100km


So the much heavier car that gets 40% better fuel consumption is no good?

Must be something wrong, could it be the Fiesta ain't all that economical?

Why in the hell would anyone buy a Fiesta when the ecoBoost Falcon is almost the same fuel consumption, safer, more room,more power on tap?


I know this is a Ford forum but let's not bury our heads in the sand making up delusional reasons why Ford shouldn't have a hybrid in it's line up.

And that is one of the reasons sales are down, it's all about beeing seen as a relevant manufacturer instead of a dinosaur in denial.