Fog Lights, what is the big deal? - Page 3

XA-Coupe · 01-07-2005, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoxr8

Agreed yo can't prevent stupidity, I know that more than the average person. I drive a vehicle with a siren and red and blue lights and we still have people not see us, because they don't look. Extra lighting will do nothing for these situations but may help when the person looks but does not see.

The reference to rice lights, proof that people object to change. Again on the road I was observing fog lights on a variety of cars, not one dazzled me in any way (new commodores included), in fact the only ones that did dazzle in any way were a couple of low beams, two were on 4wd's. The study continues.

Been there and done that with the lights and sirens..

I am not resistant to change, if I thought the rice lights provided any benefit that my low beams couldn't give me .. I would use them. IMO and experience, they are their to make the cars look 'sporty'
I get dazzled regularly by commodores and early WRXs .. their light is just focused wrong.

geckoGT · 01-07-2005, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnydep

No. 89 mentions front fog lights, the police can get you on this one as well.

http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LE...VSSR99_02A.pdf

Why don't you use the drive lights low beam, all vehicles are visible with these on & they have been designed not to effect oncoming drivers.

Yes, read that and leaves the point still that the sub para that states it must not reflect off the vehicle into another drivers eyes would have to be proved. I will be out taking pics tonight and will post the result, even if I am wrong (I am willing to admit defeat if I need to). If I am wrong I will be reconsidering my stance on the subject.

Keepleft raised a valid point on low beam obscuring indicators in some situations, which I have seen for myself on a number of occasions. Fog lamps do not present this problem.

I would actually like to lose my fog lights because that would provide great opportunity for ducting to my cold air box and transcooler placement. The possibilities would be endless!

XA-Coupe · 01-07-2005, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoxr8

Keepleft raised a valid point on low beam obscuring indicators in some situations, which I have seen for myself on a number of occasions. Fog lamps do not present this problem.

Whilst that is true.. it gets down to paying proper attention. Blinkers actually blink because the human eye sees movement best of anything ...

Keepleft · 01-07-2005, 07:42 PM

Johnydep: - Section 89 you highlight is not 'enforcement' legislation which police use to issue an infringement as to 'use'.

To prohibit use of front lights in clear conditions in QLD, QLD would need additional legislation. That said, under the ARR's, a driver must not cause 'undue glare', and could on that basis be fined in QLD. If so, the question would arise if the lamp was actually glary, issues.

89. It is a regulatory item to guide the installation;-mounting and wiring of front fog lights for vehicles after initial certification. One can be penalised under it if a fitted lamp on such vehicle is not to standard.

NB: Daytime running light criteria at law does not affect front fog light construction or use.

DES:
On LED 'lights', the only LED lamps or LED combination units legal for road use are those accepted as ADR compliant. As an example of whats available, see both the Hella and Narva online catalogues.

The same ADR process and assorted 'state' vehicle standards criteria tells us the mandatory position of each lamp function. DOTARS is aware of the 'untidyness' of many trailers with 'several' tail-stop lamps than legal requirement. Our ADR's are primarily UNECE/(World), and our application of lighting, domestically, seems a little slack. You don't get these 'party shows' of a multitude of taillights in Europe. DOTARS and state authorities will target tidying-up this mess, but it will take time.

A single $17 rear fog light will outshine a hundred standard taillights. Food for thought.

**Mechan1k** · 01-07-2005, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamie XR6

And you think you are having trouble with fog lights

Pah ... PIAA aren't all that good.
LightForce are MUCH better. hee hee

geckoGT · 01-07-2005, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XA Coupe

Whilst that is true.. it gets down to paying proper attention. Blinkers actually blink because the human eye sees movement best of anything ...

Agreed, but if a 15w globe is obscured by a 55w globe, no amount of blinking will fix it. I have seen some new cars that you have to look hard to see if the blinker is on when low beam is on, particularly in the day. Maybe this is an issue that needs to be addressed by the manufacturers. In the end though, in this situation it is prudent to wait and see what the car is doing if you are unsure so really it is not that relevent (just because the indicator is on does not mean they are actually turning, the law agrees).

XA-Coupe · 01-07-2005, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoxr8

Agreed, but if a 15w globe is obscured by a 55w globe, no amount of blinking will fix it. I have seen some new cars that you have to look hard to see if the blinker is on when low beam is on, particularly in the day. Maybe this is an issue that needs to be addressed by the manufacturers. In the end though, in this situation it is prudent to wait and see what the car is doing if you are unsure so really it is not that relevent (just because the indicator is on does not mean they are actually turning, the law agrees).

It depends on what you mean by 'obscured'. Blinkers are supposed to be amber so we can tell they're different to the headlights ... although I will concede that indicators are getting lighter and lighter.
It goes back to slack legislation about lighting.

geckoGT · 01-07-2005, 08:21 PM

Agreed! I seem to notice it more with clear indicator lenses and coloured globes.

Amazer · 01-07-2005, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoxr8

Agreed! I seem to notice it more with clear indicator lenses and coloured globes.

And the Majority of new cars come with it Nowadays

I work for 7 franchises and I would say 95% of the cars I see come in have a clear indicator lense somewhere on the vehicle.

Rob

geckoGT · 02-07-2005, 01:01 AM

Ok, the experiment is done and I found the result rather interesting.
I took photos at about 30m (just inside the low beam spread) and again at 60m facing the car in the position that an oncoming driver would be. I also made sure that I was at eye level for a driver when I took the pics. I have not posted the ones from 60m to be nice to those that have dial up, the lights were less severe from this distance anyway. I also walked about 150m down the road and had a look but decided the lights were not worth taking a photo of (not dazzling at all). I also did a walk past looking ahead to see what it was like from a variety of angles and this exercise gave the same result as the most severe photo that you will see. You will notice that I used a quiet street in an industrial area (for my safety standing in the middle of the road). This road also had no street lighting which I believe accentuates the brightness of my lights as they are not being washed out by ambient light at all. I believe that I have simulated the worst possible situation that I could given the conditions that I had. An improvement may be to do the same thing on wet roads (more reflection) but wonder why, as foggy roads are also wet (the conditions these lights are made for).

This photo is from 30m with just low beam on

This photo is from 30m with just fog lights on

This photo is from 30m with both fog lights and low beam on

I must emphasise that these are photos of my car with standard adjustments on all lights and standard globes in all lights. This does not mean that I am suggesting that all cars are the same.

I think the end result was the fog lamps do appear slightly brighter than the low beam, adding to the visibility of my car. I found that there was no stage that the fog lights were what I would even come close to considering dazzling. This is demonstated by the fact that in all the photos, the smaller lights in the distance are clear, as is the roads edge. I am very comfortable with the glare from the lights in this experiment and would have no trouble driving past this vehicle. I will state again that I used the distance of 30m because it was the distance that the brightness was the worst in the normal field of view while driving (even if the driver was watching my car go past).
In view of the fact that there is no law against fog lights in clear conditions in QLD. The only offence would be dazzling another driver, an offence that I believe these pictures demonstrate I could defend against.

So, I have done the experiment, what do you all think? Please give me your constructive and logical comments, be objective because I have. Finally thanks for your help and to assist I will add a poll.

Lynton

Sorry, can't work out poll. Can someone add it for me?

Smoke Pursuit · 02-07-2005, 01:10 AM

Just did the same experiment with a Territory Ghia and a BA XR6.... Cant see what these people are on about...

Regardless of what other manufacturers are like, the Ford foggies look to be no worse the the headlights on both our cars for glare.

geckoGT · 02-07-2005, 01:12 AM

Thanks for the feedback, as well as the effort of checking it out for yourself.

Smoke Pursuit · 02-07-2005, 01:15 AM

Yeh well i thought the Territory ones would be worse then the XR ones as they are mounted higher.. but they dont seem to be.

Both mine have foglight covers which some of the outter rim is covered with a grey strip so I dont know if that makes any difference to how the beem shines...

geckoGT · 02-07-2005, 01:22 AM

Mine was without any form of covers and the lights were clean because I have only just washed my car. That is as bright as they get (might add that the engine was running during the test so that there was no voltage drop). I actually tried really hard to demonstrate they are too bright in the interest of objectivity.

damo03 · 02-07-2005, 01:43 AM

Hi Guys. Here's my 2 cents worth.

I have often spoken to a engineer who works for Hella and there are a number of points and issues with the fog lights we are talking about.

Some cars have factory fitted fog lights, like the holden ss vy, vx commodore, which are not designed as fog lights, the beam spread is too high, which is why they give off a glare and annoy oncoming traffic, and should be classed as driving lights.

Other drivers fit driving lights and try to use them as fog lights, with low beam, unsucessfully as they are too bright (not 55W) and wrong beam spread, and these annoy oncoming traffic.

Correctly designed fog lights are a 55W beam spread wide and low mounted with about a 10-15max beam penetration in a white or amber colour. Drivers that have these lights, should not have any problems with correctly mounted foggies giving off glare as they do not go as far as low beams!

I have properly mounted white foggies (hella) and have found them immensly usefull when I often travel around Halls Gap, to avoid Roo's grazing on the side of the road, and also in the foggy weather in the far Eastern suburbs and out in the sticks.

I also believe and have heard experts say that it's easier to see people during the daytime when they have their low beams on. I am all for this but it is frustrating when they have their lights set at too high a angle or driving lights not foggies. I hope noone ever gets booked for driving with lights on in the daytime because of this.

One pet hate is those bloody hyundai's, bmw's etc that have the red rear fog light on in normal night driving. I feel like smashing it with my club lock. Police should book these people instead.

Rock on.

Damo

geckoGT · 02-07-2005, 06:18 AM

That is a good summary, thankyou for your input Damo. You have not said what you think of the experiment, are they too bright?

Rodp · 02-07-2005, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoxr8

that does not mean that the guy pulling out of the side street at a speed that is too high without giving more than a glance up the road will see it. With lights on, there is more of a chance that he will see me and act appropriately, I like more of a chance.

I stopped flashing people with fogs a long time ago when I was dazzled by them. The fact that people don't flash you doesn't mean you're not dazzling oncoming traffic.

Weigh the likelyhood of someone not seeing a (nearly) 2 ton brightly coloured car without fog lights against the potential to dazzle an oncoming motorist with them on. When I say I'm dazzled by them (and particularly at night) they dazzle me in a manner that on a 1 lane road with a fogger coming towards me, I lose a little perspective of exactly where that car is. It's a combination of having the light attract my gaze as well as partially blind me. I'm therefore required to slow down and start moving towards the left of my lane, and on some of the roads I travel on, potentially no hard shoulder.

In the situation I mentioned earlier, this happened on Heathcote Rd, a 100 zone in the wet, lots of 1 way each way road with a small shoulder if any. So I'd like you to explain exactly how this increases your safety if I'm required to change my driving manner as I'm dazzled by your oncoming foglights? When I'm on a righthand sweeping bend, things get even more dangerous.

I've been dazzled by XR fogs on numerous occassions and I doubt that each one of them took the time to adjust them upwards. However, it's not anywhere near as bad as the sensation I get when a VX Commy is coming towards me.

If you feel that lights make you more visible then by all means put your low beams on and leave the fogs off. If your safety is your concern then unless you can explain to me how fog lights which are lower can give you better visibility to other motorists than low beam which are higher? The main difference being that your low beams won't dazzle motorists like me and your safety isn't comprimised by people who are dazzled by fog lights.

Rodp · 02-07-2005, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoxr8

I think the end result was the fog lamps do appear slightly brighter than the low beam, adding to the visibility of my car. I found that there was no stage that the fog lights were what I would even come close to considering dazzling. This is demonstated by the fact that in all the photos, the smaller lights in the distance are clear, as is the roads edge. I am very comfortable with the glare from the lights in this experiment and would have no trouble driving past this vehicle.

Not everyone's eyesight is the same. As evident in your pictures, the glare coming from your fogs are higher than those coming from your low beams. I'll guarantee you that if I was travelling in the opposite direction to you, I would be dazzled by them. Now, if you're happy to be travelling on a 1 lane road in the opposite direction to me while I'm partially blinded by your fog lights and having to squint to try and focus on the road then you also have the opposite view to me of what is safe.

I also don't buy the argument of the XR fogs lighting up the side of the road which is why I use them. Sure, it does light it up, but unless you're travelling at 5kph then whatever it has lit up you've either just missed or run over before you had time to even think about reacting. In my car in my seat position I can probably light up about 2 meters (if that) infront of my car.

I'm happy for you that you have no problems driving past your vehicle with your fogs on, but you missed one very important key point, how often will you drive past your vehicle with your fogs operating? Weigh that up against how many people that will drive past your vehicle with your fogs on that are affected by them.

b2tf · 02-07-2005, 12:14 PM

Very interesting points geckoxr8, further backed up by the pics.

This is not Holden Bashing - but seriously, the only ones i have a real problem with are Commodore Foglights. I find Statesman Headlights to also be just too bright. Its not so bad you cant see a thing but when youre driving home late at night they do strain your eyes.

I'd actually like to see Wheels mag or someone similar do a test on this issue, as they would get far more circulation with it than we do on here.

My Focus has foglights and I use them every night but not in town or built up areas. I too did the tests to have a look and see when I first got the car whether they were bad or not, in my opinion they are fine and I have not once been 'flashed' by another car to say they're too bright. Constable Plod has not up to now looked at me twice for them either, whereas with my old EF i used to get done for them (i fitted aftermarket ones in the brake ducts) all the time.

johnydep · 02-07-2005, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoxr8

Ok, the experiment is done and I found the result rather interesting.

So, I have done the experiment, what do you all think? Please give me your constructive and logical comments, be objective because I have. .......

The second photo shows the fog lights to be brighter than the first photo with your low beam on. The final photo also shows a brighter light than the first.

Try the experiment again, this time have the vehicle moving so as to take into account the undulation of the road, which causes the front of the vehicle to pitch up & down, causing the light angle to change.

Also turn off the flash on the camera.
And take some photos at closer range, like 20 & 25 meters.

johnydep · 02-07-2005, 02:19 PM

I can not see (pun) the benefit of having the fog lights on instead of the head lights, in clear weather.
Fog lights have been designed to give a wide flat spread of light, which will spread into two lanes. A good quality FL will keep the light low, but what about undulations in the road?
Low beam have been designed to give a long pencil shape light which stays in the lane the vehicle is traveling.

Which is safer for all involved;
1) A light source that spreads into other traffic lanes
2) A light source that stays withnin the bounds of the lane travelled, with no loss into other drivers lanes.

This is going to be a debate that will never end, just like speed cameras. Some love them for safety reasons, some hate them for revenue reasons.

http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/roadsafety...actsandissues/

Quote:

By simply using daytime running lights (DRL's), the visibility of your car is increased substantially to both pedestrians and other drivers.

It is necessary however that the correct lights be used. Fog lights and high beam are inappropriate and parking lights ineffective whilst driving. Until specially designed DRLs are installed, low beam headlights are the most effective way to make your vehicle more visible.

http://www.transport.act.gov.au/pdfs...2004partd2.pdf

Quote:

Fog lights should only be used when visibility is poor, therefore, if your vehicle is equipped with fog lights, be aware of when to use them.
Front Fog Lights - are for driving when fog, rain or snow affects visibility. In severe conditions, it can be beneficial to drive with only the park and the fog lights switched on, further reducing headlight glare.

A few more debates on fog lights;
http://forums.justcommodores.com.au/...?threadid=7483 Commodore forums been informed that the Fog lights on the VYII (Or any Car for that matter) are illeagle
http://www.drive.com.au/editorial/ar...x?id=3691&vf=1
http://www.mtawa.com.au/index2.htm?h...28_07_2001.htm
http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/A_315/article.html

johnydep · 02-07-2005, 02:55 PM

Can someone please answer this question;

Why don't Emergency Services Vehicles use fog lights in clear/good weather?

jthommo · 02-07-2005, 02:59 PM

After reading a lot of posts here and in tee Driving Light Thread I have found that Light Force lights seam to be a regular recommendation. I have spoken to a local Light stockist and he mentioned that they do give a great light but seem to have shortcomings in the life department.. Suggesting that because of the brightnes they tend to destroy their reflectors...

Has anyone had any dramas of problems. Any recomendations ????

02-07-2005, 03:02 PM

Some very good comments here, as well as some very good sources of factual information here from johnydep

geckoxr8 - Kepp in mind that you experiment doesnt show how many REAL lumens are reaching the oncomming vehicle, in respect to the drivers face / eyes.....
The problem with taking a picture of the vehicles like you did, the camera will compensate for the light by reducing its apeture (By dimming the whole picture)..... This will in turn will reduce the apparent difference between the fog/spot/driving lights, and the low Beams...
Also note in your picture that without the fog/spot/driving lights on, the lights (traffic lights) in the far background are far more defined, than in the other shot... This is due to the cameras apeture being more open, and allowing more light to pass through.....
Also all pictures have had the camera moved on a verticle axis, as can be seen by angle position of the white centre line...

The human eyes work the same.....
If there is too much light, or a flood of light, human eyes will shut the iris down very quickly.. In most cases it will overcompensate for a split second, causing very temporary (millisecond) blindness....
As a driver of a vehicle with fog/spot/driving lamps, you must keep in mind that your eyes are accustomed to the amount of lumens your lights are putting out on the road. The difference between brightness and darkness is much less due to this.. Hence your eyesight will not have to compensate as much if another driver with fog/driving/spot lights is comming towards you....

Obviously having more lighting power on the road benefits the driver because of this... There are absolutely no doubts there....

What I am affraid of is to make a persons driving experience more comfortable, they too will in turn drive with fog/spot/driving lights on all the time... Making it harder for the rest of us without them.....

So whats the solution ???? DO we make it mandetory for every vehicle to have fog/spot/driving lights fitted, and permanently on ?
Obviously my statement here is sheer lunacy !

The reason why we have ADRs (as well as FVMSS for the States, EC for Europe, StVZO for Germany) for Headlights is to try and combat this problem, in terms of making lighting unfair for drivers.

Hence the Reason why ADRs specifiy that a vehicle cannot be fitted with more than a 70Watt Bulb for low Beam...
Why there cannot be more than 2 Low Beam Bulbs and Parabolic Reflectors, per vehicle, defined as a Low beam Headlight....

Finally, keep in mind that NOT ALL registered vehicles using our roads are desinged for the smae purpose, or are affected the smae by environmental conditions....

Being a motorcycle rider, we are still using plastic visor on our helmets.
Anyone will know that the lightest scratch in a visor (or any translucent plastic material) will diffract light....
Often the problem that I have is that someone will have their fog/spot/driving lamps on, and the beam isnt fully contained within their lane, or within the height of a low beam light....
Such lights, although oncoming may induce neglible glare from a distance, its when I am within 10-20 metres that the light can cause refractions from the sides of the curved visor, making it very difficult to view the road in front of me........

Basically what I am saying is that I am completely against using fog lights for any conditions other than fog, or very heavy rain, and I have no sympathy for anyone that gets fined for having them on during in-appropriate times.

As for Driving/Spot Lamps, It very difficult for a policeman to determine if they too are fog lamps... The terminology has been blurred to such an extent that it has become too difficult for anyone to know what specific type of lamp an Auxillary lamp should be catagorised as....
The simplest answer is to catagorise them as the same thing, then create fair and relevant legistation for their use.

**DJM83** · 02-07-2005, 05:32 PM

only time they get annoying is wen its rainin at night they reflect off of the wet road but other then that i dont have a problem only that AU XR's didnt have them :(

wingTS · 02-07-2005, 06:19 PM

To geckoxr8,

With regards to examples, I drove 500 hwy kms last night with mix of weather and found the fog lights fitted to my Territory enhanced the low beam and helped keep the fog line on the left hand side of the road in view when it poured...anyway I did experience on a few occassions when I overtook a vehicle that the spread from the fogs lights on the left was fairly bright and appears to have annoyed a few drivers who flashed me in return once I had passed.

jabba · 02-07-2005, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoxr8

I can not understand how anyone can say that fog lights shine in your eyes. A true fog light is set lower than a low beam, in fact the fog light beam ends in the first half of the low beam and of equivalent wattage to the low beam. I am sorry but any complaint that they shine in the eyes of other motorists, I have one thing to say, impossible!

They might be driving a go kart

XD 351 Ute · 02-07-2005, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoxr8

I would actually like to lose my fog lights because that would provide great opportunity for ducting to my cold air box and transcooler placement. The possibilities would be endless!

No problem, a hammer can be arranged.............

One more pair of recklessly used foglights gone from this world!! (j/k)

Ed

geckoGT · 03-07-2005, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnydep

The second photo shows the fog lights to be brighter than the first photo with your low beam on. The final photo also shows a brighter light than the first.

Try the experiment again, this time have the vehicle moving so as to take into account the undulation of the road, which causes the front of the vehicle to pitch up & down, causing the light angle to change.

Also turn off the flash on the camera.
And take some photos at closer range, like 20 & 25 meters.

To be honest with you, I am tired of it and I think I have done more than enough. I looked at all ranges from 150m to 0m and took the photos at the worst point. I also adjusted my height to the worst angle in order to try and prove myself wrong. I am not going to go out on multiple nights and multiple conditions to try and prove something that I already have, I do have other things in my life (hard to believe I know).

The second photo shows the FOG LIGHTS ONLY, they do seem brighter because the comparison in that photo is to the factory standard park lights (I think 15w wedge globe from memory) 15w compared to 55w, of course the foggies will be brighter. The variation in the third photo between low and fog beams is a bees pecker, not even sure if it is a variation. In both these photos and standing there on the cold night, I noticed that the foggies were definately less obtrusive than a lot of the factory low beams that are coming out now and certainly better than a lot of the 4wd's on the market (a lot seem too high)
One thing I noticed and some others that I have shown the photos too, is that with the foggies on, although it is not blinding it is more distinct and noticable.
As for my brightly coloured car that does not need them, why is it I have already had a number of near misses by people that claim they did not see me (before I used to turn the foggies and low beam on and the reason I do now)? I have been hit once by a guy that claimed he did not see me but that was with a box trailer and my car parked, he was just an idiot.
I leave the challenge for someone to provide photographic proof of dazzling fog lights, I have done my bit.
Regarding the photos, I can not turn the flash off as the picture would then be unrealistically altered by a very long shutter time and would require a tripod and remote shutter release. If you want to set up a tripod in the middle of the road, go for it (better wear a reflective vest). I considered the flash problem, considering the distance to target, the target would have been out of range of the bulk of the flash. The remaining light would have been less than the lights of an oncoming car, therefore I do not believe the flash altered the effect of the experiment.

Over to you guys, if you wish!

geckoGT · 03-07-2005, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnydep

Can someone please answer this question;

Why don't Emergency Services Vehicles use fog lights in clear/good weather?

In states that have the appropriate legislation, there is your reason.

In Queensland Ambulance Service, none of the vehicles have them except the new Commodore SV6 and they are so new that it would take 2 yrs for direction to come down from higher (govt dept), I do not know if there will be any direction, I doubt it. The other vehicles not being fitted with them is because Mercedes Sprinter don't have them (ask mercedes) and the Ford F series are that old that foggies were rare and most that vehicles had were after market accessories. I can say that the QAS is encouraging all its members to drive with head lights on in all conditions (have been for years).