High Powered Pushrod technology is better than High Powered Quadcam Technology

[J.C.]

Originally Posted by ltd

The aviation engines making over 220kw at 2200 rpm are typically 9.7 litre capacity engines, such as the Continental 540 cubic inch engine. Pretty poor power on something that has 130/100 octane fuel.
These engines designs are over 40 years old and haven't changed much at all.

.

I ask why?

[Green X]

Originally Posted by ACTIV8

"Oh and the Boss eats both the Gen1 and 2 V8's for V8 growl IMO"

Really?

Someone care to educate me as to how to achieve that?

I love my GT, it has extractors and basically a straight through system, it's very loud and it certainly sounds like it means business when you stand on it but it isn't a patch on the LS engine for sound...and that shits me.

If anyone has made one of these buggers sound awesome, tell me how.

anyone can whack on a straight thou pipes, but it will still sound like P.I.S.S.

The Boss can sound like chit with a bad system, there is a GT at work with the worst System on it ever, sounds like a V6 commodore. Then I have herd others that sound amazing.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Umm?
Boss 5.4 290kw/520nm
LS7 376kw/646nm

LS7 weight 202kg
Boss weight: Unsure, but the 4.6 DOHC is 600lbs, or 272kg

Also 30kg sitting over the front suspension is alot, letalone nearly 100kg.

LS7 in the Corvette Z06 is 505hp 470ftlbs, which is 377kW 637Nm.

[sleekism]

First of all OHC technology has been around just as long as Pushrod technology nearly all car technology we have today was invented in the 20's and 30's but it takes time for it to become economical.

Fact is that a OHC engine of the same capacity as a OHV engine will always produce more horsepower, the advantage of OHV is the packaging benefits thus why you never really see a OHC beyond 5.0L

It's not fair to look at the BOSS and say that the LS7 is the best engine design as:

1)The Modular was developed in the early 90's while the GEN4 is a brand new family.

2)The Modular is a truck engine with a cast iron block and long stroke configuration.

It's Ford's own fault for not devloping a new V8 family sooner but subsequently you will find that Fords new "Hurricane V8" with 6.3L plus capacity in a big bore OHC engine will cause GM a lot of grief.

Even so for it's age and it's intended purpose the Modular has performed extremely well in supercars such as the:

Koenigsegg CCR 601kw@6900rpm 920nm@5700rpm
Ford GT 410kw 678nn

Even the non-supercar Shelby Mustang produces a healthy 373kw.

Plus I don't think the LS7 is a relative bargain I'm pretty sure the crate cost alone is around 50,000 dollars plus where the Modular is a fraction of the cost and can produce similar performance levels to the LS7 with a blower and don't try and say you can't match supercharged to naturally aspirated as Holden did it for years matching their supercharged V6 against the sophisticated Ford I6 and even though the Modular gets it's high performance through forced induction it hasn't stopped it being a run away success in the US.

Basically each technology has it's advantages and people will swear by either one I believe that capcity equals power and if you don't have capcity OHC and VVT can be a good substitute and if you have both capacity and OHC then you have a winner.

Remember the FE family 427 SOHC was banned from NASCAR due to it's obvious advantage.

You want to spice up the thread some more throw in ****el Rotary vs Reciprocating, Desmodromic vs Valve Spring and 2 stroke vs 4 stroke these have been around just as long and are just as heated. :

[ACTIV8]

That's not particularly helpful green dude.

I'm yet to hear one that sounds any better than mine but that isn't in the same league as a decent system on an LS Chevy.

Now if you could tell me what or even who does these wonderful magical systems, I'm all ears.

[Falcon Coupe]

Originally Posted by ACTIV8

That's not particularly helpful green dude.

I'm yet to hear one that sounds any better than mine but that isn't in the same league as a decent system on an LS Chevy.

Now if you could tell me what or even who does these wonderful magical systems, I'm all ears.

Difilippo headers and sports cat/mufflers with twin 3" pipes going into quad tips.....Awesome !

[ACTIV8]

OK, that's more helpful. If there happened to be such a set up kicking around Melbourne Northern Suburbs, I'd love to take a listen.

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by sleekism

First of all OHC technology has been around just as long as Pushrod technology nearly all car technology we have today was invented in the 20's and 30's but it takes time for it to become economical.

Fact is that a OHC engine of the same capacity as a OHV engine will always produce more horsepower, the advantage of OHV is the packaging benefits thus why you never really see a OHC beyond 5.0L

It's not fair to look at the BOSS and say that the LS7 is the best engine design as:

1)The Modular was developed in the early 90's while the GEN4 is a brand new family.

2)The Modular is a truck engine with a cast iron block and long stroke configuration.

It's Ford's own fault for not devloping a new V8 family sooner but subsequently you will find that Fords new "Hurricane V8" with 6.3L plus capacity in a big bore OHC engine will cause GM a lot of grief.

Even so for it's age and it's intended purpose the Modular has performed extremely well in supercars such as the:

Koenigsegg CCR 601kw@6900rpm 920nm@5700rpm
Ford GT 410kw 678nn

Even the non-supercar Shelby Mustang produces a healthy 373kw.

Plus I don't think the LS7 is a relative bargain I'm pretty sure the crate cost alone is around 50,000 dollars plus where the Modular is a fraction of the cost and can produce similar performance levels to the LS7 with a blower and don't try and say you can't match supercharged to naturally aspirated as Holden did it for years matching their supercharged V6 against the sophisticated Ford I6 and even though the Modular gets it's high performance through forced induction it hasn't stopped it being a run away success in the US.

Basically each technology has it's advantages and people will swear by either one I believe that capcity equals power and if you don't have capcity OHC and VVT can be a good substitute and if you have both capacity and OHC then you have a winner.

Remember the FE family 427 SOHC was banned from NASCAR due to it's obvious advantage.

You want to spice up the thread some more throw in ****el Rotary vs Reciprocating, Desmodromic vs Valve Spring and 2 stroke vs 4 stroke these have been around just as long and are just as heated. :

Just an FYI. The engine in the Koenigsegg CCR is not a Ford engine. The original engines in the first models were, but they are their own design now.

As for $50k for an LS7 you are way off the mark
The LS7 crate motor costs about $13k.

Even the C6R crate engine is $18k

Go look up what a M5 engine costs : Try 3-4x that

[sleekism]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Just an FYI. The engine in the Koenigsegg CCR is not a Ford engine. The original engines in the first models were, but they are their own design now.

As for $50k for an LS7 you are way off the mark
The LS7 crate motor costs about $13k.

Even the C6R crate engine is $18k

Go look up what a M5 engine costs : Try 3-4x that

Yeah I know the Koniesegg is no longer the 4.6L Modular I watch top gear too :

Pretty sure the LS7 is 50 grand though might be wrong.

Just trying to make the point that the Modular has a lot of potential

[fivepointseven]

Originally Posted by Green X

No, it's the only way they could get it to pass emissions standards with morer power was to increase capacity,

The Boss V8 made a emissions legal 320Kw in the form of the DJR cars, yes?.

In a few months the Boss engine will be doing 302Kw Vs 307kw for the LS2 that is over .5 of a litre bigger.

You can't compare a Boss V8 to a LS1/LS2 the later have had big development $$ spent on them for Chev sports cars, Ford Australia took a V8 out of a U.S SUV and tweaked it, with cobra heads and custom intake manifold.

I am not denying the Chev engines are a good motor cause they are, But you take a OHV and a DOHC V8 of the same capacity and my money will be on the DOHC every time, the fine tuning capability's on them is so much better .

Oh and the Boss eats both the Gen1 and 2 V8's for V8 growl IMO

Boss V8 growl??

Never had the opportunity to hear that as the Boss V8 is always out of ear-shot because it is so far behind me. Might let one keep up with me next time, put the window down and have a listen.

[sleekism]

Cmon fivepoint seven you really came all this way to start some .

Let me spell it his way: The 5.7 sounds like someone poured a bucket full of bolts into a coffee blender it's either got something to do with the odd firing order or the fact that it's breaking apart and ****ing oil everywhere.

I'm willing to admit that Chev builds a good engine but they have a long way to go in aural stimulation and say what you want but Harley-Davidson sells bikes on sound and spend tens of millions of dollars on perfecting it.

So cmon mate this is a OHC vs OHV debate not another tired Holden vs Ford one.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by sleekism

Cmon fivepoint seven you really came all this way to start some .

Let me spell it his way: The 5.7 sounds like someone poured a bucket full of bolts into a coffee blender it's either got something to do with the odd firing order or the fact that it's breaking apart and ****ing oil everywhere.

I'm willing to admit that Chev builds a good engine but they have a long way to go in aural stimulation and say what you want but Harley-Davidson sells bikes on sound and spend tens of millions of dollars on perfecting it.

So cmon mate this is a OHC vs OHV debate not another tired Holden vs Ford one.

agreed i wish my LS1 sounded like a 304/308 that is sex in engine note

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by sleekism

Yeah I know the Koniesegg is no longer the 4.6L Modular I watch top gear too :

Pretty sure the LS7 is 50 grand though might be wrong.

Just trying to make the point that the Modular has a lot of potential

Wheels July 2007 said the LS7 costs HSV marginally less than $22k

So would probably be a $30k crate motor to a non GM Aussie buyer.

[Ghiadude]

This argument wont be settled in one post but i will say this. One of the engines mentioned is an engineering masterpiece that is admired by car fans and engineers alike - its also won numerous awards for its design and innovation. The other is a brutish and unrefined yet extremely tractable engine with all the sophistication of a rock with moss growing on it. If youve ever been in an M5 V10 you would imediately understand why the Chev although powerfull and simple just isnt in the same class. refinement, torque delivery and response have to be taken into account. outright numbers dont tell the whole story.

[Rock ape]

Originally Posted by fivepointseven

Boss V8 growl??

Never had the opportunity to hear that as the Boss V8 is always out of ear-shot because it is so far behind me. Might let one keep up with me next time, put the window down and have a listen.

People like you are the reason i don't like Holdens. :

[The G6ET Spot]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

What's the capacity of the V10?

The LS7 is the 7 litre right??

If the V10 is smaller (and I think it is) what sre the outputs of each engine per litre?

Some figures would be nice.

Dodge Viper V10 = 8 litres

[3vXT]

Originally Posted by RAPID XR8

Dodge Viper V10 = 8 litres

isn't the srt10 8.3 litres now?

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by fivepointseven

Boss V8 growl??

Never had the opportunity to hear that as the Boss V8 is always out of ear-shot because it is so far behind me. Might let one keep up with me next time, put the window down and have a listen.

Even though I own a Holden, you sir are a jack ***.

No one cares, because I do agree the BOSS sounds way better than the LS* motors, but they can sound pretty cool, with the right exhaust I guess.

The Aussie 5L is better for sound though.

[Falcon Coupe]

Originally Posted by fivepointseven

Boss V8 growl??

Never had the opportunity to hear that as the Boss V8 is always out of ear-shot because it is so far behind me. Might let one keep up with me next time, put the window down and have a listen.

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

It was a warning, not a come back, when you come back in a week try to tone the trolling down.

Looking for a longer holiday ?
I thought you may have learned from the first.

[ED Classic]

My favourite in local cars (fuel injected anyway) is the old Holden 8 followed by the Boss then Windsor then LS1 last.

Dont think Ferarri want to use a pushrod and they have money to use whatever they like but I suppose some Holden people here know better.

[mik]

Originally Posted by tx3dude

This argument wont be settled in one post but i will say this. One of the engines mentioned is an engineering masterpiece that is admired by car fans and engineers alike - its also won numerous awards for its design and innovation. The other is a brutish and unrefined yet extremely tractable engine with all the sophistication of a rock with moss growing on it. If youve ever been in an M5 V10 you would imediately understand why the Chev although powerfull and simple just isnt in the same class. refinement, torque delivery and response have to be taken into account. outright numbers dont tell the whole story.

you hit the nail on the head tx3dude.

[Piotr]

Originally Posted by burnz

1/The f1 engine only rev's to 20,000 rpm because it doesent have a cam.
the valves are pnumaticly operated.

2/The overhead cam is as old as the pushrod (1920's)technology

3/Man has a bad habit of over engineering a simple designe and making it less reliable

1/ F1 engines have 4 camshafts:
"5.14.5 Camshafts must be manufactured from an iron based
alloy.
Each camshaft and lobes must be machined from a single piece of
material.
No welding is allowed between the front and rear bearing journals."
Yes they are Pneumatic but they have camshafts.

2/ I never said anything about the age of the design.


GTS_300_Coupe: So a Pushrod v8 supercard makes 200hp less with over double the capacity? Not ever close mate.

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by tx3dude

This argument wont be settled in one post but i will say this. One of the engines mentioned is an engineering masterpiece that is admired by car fans and engineers alike - its also won numerous awards for its design and innovation. The other is a brutish and unrefined yet extremely tractable engine with all the sophistication of a rock with moss growing on it. If youve ever been in an M5 V10 you would imediately understand why the Chev although powerfull and simple just isnt in the same class. refinement, torque delivery and response have to be taken into account. outright numbers dont tell the whole story.

And the LS7R engine was voted motorsport engine of the year :
http://www.americanlemans.com/News/Article.aspx?ID=2724

Cologene, Germany – GM's small-block V-8 added another accolade to a long list of honors when Corvette Racing's LS7.R was named the Global Motorsport Engine of the Year at the inaugural Professional Motorsport World Expo in Cologne, Germany, on November 9. The race-prepared LS7.R engine, which shares its architecture with the production LS7 small-block V-8, propelled Corvette Racing to its fifth GT1 class victory in the 24 Hours of Le Mans on June 18, 2006. The 7.0-liter engine also powered the Compuware Corvette C6.R race cars to the 2006 American Le Mans Series manufacturers, drivers and team championships with a perfect reliability record.

"Winning this award is another milestone in the history of the legendary GM small-block V-8," said GM Racing director Mark Kent. "The championship-winning LS7.R has evolved to a very high level of development, yet it retains the longstanding virtues of compact size, simplicity, reliability and high specific output that have made the GM small-block V-8 the world's most successful production-based racing engine."

[sexr6tasy]

bmw wins holden loses NEXT.

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by tx3dude

This argument wont be settled in one post but i will say this. One of the engines mentioned is an engineering masterpiece that is admired by car fans and engineers alike - its also won numerous awards for its design and innovation. The other is a brutish and unrefined yet extremely tractable engine with all the sophistication of a rock with moss growing on it. If youve ever been in an M5 V10 you would imediately understand why the Chev although powerfull and simple just isnt in the same class. refinement, torque delivery and response have to be taken into account. outright numbers dont tell the whole story.

Also your arguments against the LS7 is completely baseless.
As for tractability and torque delivery, what other mass produced engine can be started from 5th gear and accelerate all the way to redline doing 300kmh?
If thats not tractability I dont know what is :
Only an electric motor is going to better that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Lexv73YTu4

[exrtnz]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Also your arguments against the LS7 is completely baseless.
As for tractability and torque delivery, what other mass produced engine can be started from 5th gear and accelerate all the way to redline doing 300kmh?
If thats not tractability I dont know what is :
Only an electric motor is going to better that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Lexv73YTu4

What are you doing starting it in 5th gear thats gotta be good for it. Anyway the M5 is a completely different and better all round engine than the ls7's(dated technology). If I had to choose between the 2 I'd have a M5 , and I'd say almost everyone would aswell, except xr6martin.

[owl]

Originally Posted by tx3dude

This argument wont be settled in one post but i will say this. One of the engines mentioned is an engineering masterpiece that is admired by car fans and engineers alike - its also won numerous awards for its design and innovation. The other is a brutish and unrefined yet extremely tractable engine with all the sophistication of a rock with moss growing on it. If youve ever been in an M5 V10 you would imediately understand why the Chev although powerfull and simple just isnt in the same class. refinement, torque delivery and response have to be taken into account. outright numbers dont tell the whole story.

What never ceases to amaze me with chev holden or ford comparisons to BMW enginering is the absense of comparison on cost ,at least our local manufactures are producing cars we can afford ,if it was up to BMW to do that most of us would be walking

[coolkid]

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=81295
awesome forum if you like your m series cars,quite interesting comments regarding the zo6 from m5 and m6 owners,and the pictures are to die for(56k warning)and watch the vid at the top of page :

[xbgs351]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Umm?
Boss 5.4 290kw/520nm
LS7 376kw/646nm

LS7 weight 202kg
Boss weight: Unsure, but the 4.6 DOHC is 600lbs, or 272kg

Also 30kg sitting over the front suspension is alot, letalone nearly 100kg.

Other comparisons:

Cosworth XB, 3500cc
465+kW/236Nm
117kg

RST V8, 2400cc
300kW/140Nm
74kg

[nugget378]

A couple more since were on racing engines.
Yates Ford or chev 2.2 nascar,both pushrod V8's
358ci @ over 800hp

To add Im at pretty sure pushrod is the newer technology..