Wheels August 2009

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Personally I'd like to see them implement an electric water pump and electro-hydraulic power steering to reduce the running load on the engine and bring baseline fuel consumption down a bit more. Would probably help in increasing the ponies a little bit too without those two accessory drives running off the motor. But only a small amount.

But DI = HUGE $$$ investment. Would FoA have, or be given, the cash to make the I6 Direct Injection? DI is up there with camless valvetrain tech for the 'ultimate' I6 but give the cash situation with Broady right now I'm doubtful...

I'd rather they stay with hydraulic steering until they can create an electric steering system that can produce the natural feel and weighting of a hydraulic system. Most electric systems feel artificial and don't deliver the same steering feel as a well tuned hydraulic system does.

They would be better using an electric motor to drive the power steering pump but still use hydraulics. I think there have been a couple of cars that have done this to retain the steering feel of hydraulic, but with the economy reductions due to the lower parasitic losses of electric.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I'd rather they stay with hydraulic steering until they can create an electric steering system that can produce the natural feel and weighting of a hydraulic system. Most electric systems feel artificial and don't deliver the same steering feel as a well tuned hydraulic system does.

They would be better using an electric motor to drive the power steering pump but still use hydraulics. I think there have been a couple of cars that have done this to retain the steering feel of hydraulic, but with the economy reductions due to the lower parasitic losses of electric.

Yeah that's what I meant when I said "electro-hydraulic" power steering - the electric motor drives the pump (perhaps could be combined into one unit to save weight?) and the rest of the steering system works as normal. The only dilemma would be where to mount the power unit, the system can be supplied by a remote fluid reservoir mounted elsewhere.

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by flappist

You guys do realise that if the I6 is bumped up another 6kw it will join the "high powered 6 cylinder" list and P platers will be banned from driving ALL new falcons.

Not a huge problem today but 10-15 years from now with most falcons being banned to new drivers the ford fan club might get a bit thin.

Dont really think that is on the radar at Ford Aus though

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I'd rather they stay with hydraulic steering until they can create an electric steering system that can produce the natural feel and weighting of a hydraulic system. Most electric systems feel artificial and don't deliver the same steering feel as a well tuned hydraulic system does.

They would be better using an electric motor to drive the power steering pump but still use hydraulics. I think there have been a couple of cars that have done this to retain the steering feel of hydraulic, but with the economy reductions due to the lower parasitic losses of electric.

To my knowledge the only Ford on sale today in australia with electric steering is the Fiesta (not sure if it is electrohydraulic or just full electric??). I do know Ford europe did a hell of a lot of testing and retuning to get it to work how they wanted it too. It still isn't up to the weighting of the old model, but its a damn sight better then any other electric system out there. Its even bettter than some competitors hydraulic sytems...or so the reviewers have said.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

To my knowledge the only Ford on sale today in australia with electric steering is the Fiesta (not sure if it is electrohydraulic or just full electric??). I do know Ford europe did a hell of a lot of testing and retuning to get it to work how they wanted it too. It still isn't up to the weighting of the old model, but its a damn sight better then any other electric system out there. Its even bettter than some competitors hydraulic sytems...or so the reviewers have said.

Possibly one of the first cars I have read reviews on where they say the electric steering is as good as a hydraulic set up, but Fords European engineers know how to make a steering system work, its become a real strong suit for them.

[ILLaViTaR]

If I was interested in purchasing a Honda Accord, I'd get a brochure from Honda.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

Can I add me 2 cents worth about V6 vs. I6? I'll start be saying that I know sweat F all about engines & what makes one good/ better than the next. But, I believe (based on pure perception) that a V6 is far more advanced & uses newer technology than the falcon's dated I6. Weather this is right or wrong I have no idea.

Ok lets have a look at the I6.

The AU I6 comes out and puts the XU6 from HSV to shame and it gets pulled off the market.

The tickford I6 would give the 5L a good run for their money.

In AU form it was very economical and people could get very good km's out of a tank compared to the 'advanced' V6.

The BA is released with VVT, DVCT and improved cooling and having 25kw more then V6. I wont talk about the Torque figures as the I6 has had the wood on the Commo V6 for a long time.

When the VZ came along the BF Xt matched the HPV6 in KW but was still lower then it in torque.

Euro 3 regs come out and the alloytec loses power and torque in the base model and HP loses torque to comply while the BF had an increase. You would think that the 'advanced/modern V6' wouldn't have an issue with this.

Holden put the HP internals into the base model alloytec (in the VE) and again the car loses power and torque so that it would be more economical and have lower emmissions...10.5L/100. For the FG they changed the cat and calibrations but it retained its power, matched the now superseeded model 4cyl camry of 9.9l/100.

Also remember the current I6's power is on 91 ron, 95 you get an increase and 98 another increase.

Yes the engine has been around since the first Falcon but dated it is not. The engine has gone through many evolutionary changed as crossflow, OHC, VVT & DOHC. Remember the ecotec was still a pushrod engine and I'm amazed at the praise on here as I hate the dam thing as over 3500rpm the engine sounds like its gonna explode.

[mcnews]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I'd rather they stay with hydraulic steering until they can create an electric steering system that can produce the natural feel and weighting of a hydraulic system. Most electric systems feel artificial and don't deliver the same steering feel as a well tuned hydraulic system does.
.

Drive an RX8...

[ltd]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Holden put the HP internals into the base model alloytec (in the VE) and again the car loses power and torque so that it would be more economical and have lower emmissions...10.5L/100. For the FG they changed the cat and calibrations but it retained its power, matched the now superseeded model 4cyl camry of 9.9l/100.

Also remember the current I6's power is on 91 ron, 95 you get an increase and 98 another increase.

Yes the engine has been around since the first Falcon but dated it is not. The engine has gone through many evolutionary changed as crossflow, OHC, VVT & DOHC. Remember the ecotec was still a pushrod engine and I'm amazed at the praise on here as I hate the dam thing as over 3500rpm the engine sounds like its gonna explode.

Absolutely top post but one addition; in FG not only did it retain its power, it gained 6KW.

As for your comment on the ecotec; I haven't had a good laugh like that for ages - spot on.

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by vztrt

. Remember the ecotec was still a pushrod engine and I'm amazed at the praise on here as I hate the dam thing as over 3500rpm the engine sounds like its gonna explode.

I think the 'praise', and its been faint at that, for the ecotec is moreso because of the disappointment over the alloytec. Alot of people figure it was not worth the trouble of changing engines. Also, in real life it delivered the goods in its final years (even though shackled to a truly atrocious auto) just as well as an alloytec did. I drove a VY back to back with a VZ, and while the VZ was ultimately quicker there was SFA in it and frankly the ecotec was more linear in its torque and easier to drive.

But yes, in general the ecotec was past its use by date at the end. NVH was always its downfall....combine it with an auto that second guesses, and forces the engine to labour,, then rev its tits off, labour again etc. etc. and its tiresome very quickly. I would describe anything above 3500rpm in an ecotec like a mad werewolf trying to eat its way through the firewall....scary stuff!!!

[XR Martin]

The benefits from an electric steering pump or water pump is negligible. The power for these systems has to come from somewhere, and in this case it would be the alternator.
You are basically taking from one hand and giving it to the other.
You really arnt going to gain any power other than the minimal losses through the friction of the belt and pullys.

Only real advantage would be packaging, which isnt really an issue on a Falcon.

[DJM83]

Getting a bit off topic here can we get back on track please

[ltd]

225kw, I dare say that Ford will have something up its sleeve. Tying in with the GRWD platform that Ford is again talking about, the life extension of the Geelong plant and the federal government money into fuel saving technology could it be that DI is on the cards for the 4 litre? Any of the Geelong boys care to weigh in?

[chevypower]

I wonder if Ford Oz will do an EcoBoost version of the 4.0 I-6. Based on improvements of the 3.5 V6 EB (with its specific power and torque output), I would expect 310kw / 550Nm from 1600 rpm-5500 rpm with absolutely no turbo lag, and absolutely no loss in fuel economy over the regular 4.0 I-6. And run on the cheapest version of unleaded available.

[fou_bleu]

EcoBoost I6.... :sm_drool: IF the NA I6 was EcoBoosted and got similar gains in kW / Nm as the Duratec 3.5 does with EB, it would have *cough* 270kW and um... 530Nm!!! Ok, lets just say the XR6T is a EcoBoost Falcon without the DI. Though "@ RPM" figures could be slightly different (can't figure out if it would be lower or higher)

(Those figures were NOT expected!!! e)

[mrbaxr6t]

holden for all their "having a go" and "hero styling" cannot escape this simple fact - taxis are no longer cmmo's why you say? well the answer is simple Ford taxis will deliver a million kms (with help of course), holdens cannot match this not only is the engine pacier with torque down low its bomb proof by comparison. I will not take holden seriously till they build a car that can cop the abuse thrown at it when its a taxi. Reliability in a country such as ours is very important to me.

[Bent8]

Originally Posted by naddis01

All estimations from the article:
3.6L - 225kW @ 6400rpm, 370Nm @ 5200rpm.
3.0L - 200kW @ 7000rpm, 302Nm @ 5700rpm.

FG for comparison:
4.0L - 195kW @ 6000rpm, 391Nm @ 3250rpm.

Pretty good effort really for the 3.6 albeit high in the rev range. Out does 100Nm per litre. Thats if they are on the money, but they are using some results from Cadillac as a benchmark.

OMG, the day they stick that 3.0L in a Commodore will be the day I never stop laughing!

Can you imagine how gutless it will be trying to pull a 1700kg sedan to 100kph?...even with 200kW, it's REALLY lacking in the torque dept.

The 3.6L looks promising with 300hp but again it's still got much less torque than the current Falcon.

Maybe with a lower diff ratio (ZF auto), it might just edge a 5-speed auto equipped FG Falcon.

Example of why torque is king...

The New Ferrari California has a 4.3L V8 (DI) with 338kW/485Nm weighs 1690kg.

The F430 also has a 4.3L V8 with 360kW/465Nm and weighs 1450kg....guess which is quicker?.....yep the California!

[Carby]

Don't think you'll be laughing too much when petrol hits $1.50 again and people have the choice of a 3.0 litre Commodore or 4.0 litre Falcon - even if there's not much between the actual fuel economy of the two cars it's all about perception!

Holden might be going down a smart route here offering a good performing 6 and a small 6 to cover both ends of the market.

[MAD]

Originally Posted by Carby

Don't think you'll be laughing too much when petrol hits $1.50 again and people have the choice of a 3.0 litre Commodore or 4.0 litre Falcon - even if there's not much between the actual fuel economy of the two cars it's all about perception!

Holden might be going down a smart route here offering a good performing 6 and a small 6 to cover both ends of the market.

If there's little to no difference in ACTUAL fuel economy, I would still be laughing my **** off as I'd have a car that could reach the speed limit before reaching the next set of traffic lights.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Carby

Don't think you'll be laughing too much when petrol hits $1.50 again and people have the choice of a 3.0 litre Commodore or 4.0 litre Falcon - even if there's not much between the actual fuel economy of the two cars it's all about perception!

Holden might be going down a smart route here offering a good performing 6 and a small 6 to cover both ends of the market.

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthr...0&page=1&pp=25

[Carby]

Originally Posted by MAD

If there's little to no difference in ACTUAL fuel economy, I would still be laughing my **** off as I'd have a car that could reach the speed limit before reaching the next set of traffic lights.

Might be a bit hard ......in a 4 cylinder Falcon...............

[WASP]

Originally Posted by Carby

Might be a bit hard ......in a 4 cylinder Falcon...............

A turbocharged 170 kW 4 cylinder Falcon. I think you will make it to the next set of lights just fine :voldar02:

[MAD]

Originally Posted by Carby

Might be a bit hard ......in a 4 cylinder Falcon...............

I was referring to the 6

[blue_ute]

i saw this article last week and its classic holden again bump up the power so it looks good and gives a little bragging rights back but realistic it looks pretty gutless with barely any torque at a normal everyday rev range and the ve that they talk up for its design i parked my ba next to one and you can clearly see were they got that great design US .

[Swordsman88]

Recent announcements from Ford just provide further proof of Holden's stupidity.

1. Build the holden cruze....borderline profitable since Ford can't make the Focus work but....anyway lets call it line ball.

2. Get the DI alloytec 3.0 out there, because we are desperate to get into the 9 L/100km range, even though its torque is crap. Never mind, must hurry all of a sudden after doing nothing about the alloytec for 5 years (could of had the 3.6 DI version years ago).

So you think you have Ford covered do you Holden, within 1 year Ford will do LI LPG and there goes your fleet sales. Another year after that, 2.0 DI Turbo ecoboost takes out your 'ecoline' with a Ford Falcon Econetic 4 cylinder that burns in the 8s (almost 1L/100km less than their 3.0) and out torques it by AT LEAST 50nm!!!

This is like the adventura/territory debacle. Rushed that out, didn't sell, and drove like a pig compared to the Territory. Silly GMH...

[ivorya]

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

Recent announcements from Ford just provide further proof of Holden's stupidity.

1. Build the holden cruze....borderline profitable since Ford can't make the Focus work but....anyway lets call it line ball.

2. Get the DI alloytec 3.0 out there, because we are desperate to get into the 9 L/100km range, even though its torque is crap. Never mind, must hurry all of a sudden after doing nothing about the alloytec for 5 years (could of had the 3.6 DI version years ago).

So you think you have Ford covered do you Holden, within 1 year Ford will do LI LPG and there goes your fleet sales. Another year after that, 2.0 DI Turbo ecoboost takes out your 'ecoline' with a Ford Falcon Econetic 4 cylinder that burns in the 8s (almost 1L/100km less than their 3.0) and out torques it by AT LEAST 50nm!!!

This is like the adventura/territory debacle. Rushed that out, didn't sell, and drove like a pig compared to the Territory. Silly GMH...

Remember, this is Holden Your talking about here.

Ever since Ford US has pushed Ecoboost engines, GM has been watching and listening. They 2 are going to use 2.0L DI Turbo engines in their products. Holden, I'm sure, already have mules running around evaluating their use. Maybe due to this evaluation the 3.0L V6 DI engine was a better prospect, who knows.

Remember that Holden are this Marketing Giants and when they have everyone in the Media on their side, I still think it's going to be a steep climb for Ford Aus but lets hope Ford get's back to the top, where they belong!!!

[R-Design]

Looks like the VE Series II engine details will be released tomorrow:

Originally Posted by CarAdvice

GM Holden will tomorrow unveil significant updates to its Commodore range aimed at cutting fuel consumption and luring buyers back to the declining large car market segment.

http://www.caradvice.com.au/37001/ho...t-new-engines/

[R-Design]

Originally Posted by Drive

Holden is tomorrow set to announce it will downsize the V6 engine in its Commodore large car and fit a six-speed automatic transmission to reduce fuel consumption by more than 10 per cent.

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/Ar...=64718&IsPgd=0

[vztrt]

Holden Commodore engine updates revealed

http://www.caradvice.com.au/37379/ho...ates-revealed/

Although the conference has just begun we can bring you news already as follows:

* The new 3.0-litre SIDI V6 will produce 190kW and manage a consumption figure of 9.3L/100km (combined). This engine will be available in Omega and Berlina models.
* The exisiting 3.6-litre V6 will be available in the rest of the VE range – as well as WM models – but will see a power increase to 210kW. This engine will be mated exclusively to a six-speed automatic transmission.
* LPG powered units now achieve a fuel economy figure of 13.4L/100km (combined) as well as being the most CO2 emissions friendly car in its class.
* Most VE and WM models will not see any increase over the current recommended retail price.
* Next year an E85 fuelled alternative will also be made available with this engine to be exported globally. Export vehicles to be powered by the Aussie V6 include SAAB’s new 9-5 model.

Stay with us this morning for further updates as they come to hand.

[vztrt]

Drive articlle.

Holden doesn't seem to wanna release torque figures.

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/Ar...3&vf=0&IsPgd=0