Should Electric Vehicles be Banned?

[guzzis3]

Nothing like a bit of outraged indignation to warm up a thread.

Some of you talk about oil running out. How do you know that ? Do you know where it comes from ? Because I don't and as far as I know no one does. It gets lumped in with coal as a fossil fuel but as far as I know that hasn't been proven.

I spent most of my working life in the research industry. Customers can always get the answer they want if they pay the right people. Fanatics can get a paper published that confirms their beliefs especially if they are left leaning. I'm too busy dealing with a list of medical conditions as long as my arm these days but when I was well I chased down the numbers behind quite a few bits of lefty propaganda disguised as peer reviewed papers and demonstrated they were totally flawed. BS in fact.

_IF_ the japanese claims of 45% efficiency are true we could have upgraded our coal plants 15 years ago and halved our generation emissions as a stop gap, but because of the religious wars that was never going to happen.

A friend in the railways pointed out years ago we still run steam trains, we've just moved the boiler off the tracks to a more remote site so the plebs don't have to see the smoke.

I'm really slow sometimes. It took me a really long time to realise most people aren't after solutions, they just want to fight. Externalising hate, feeling good about yourselves or just being noticed, you kid yourselves your saving the planet or the left legged wombat but it's really not about fixing anything. Just finding a heretic to burn. This applies equally to both extremes, right and left. It's just the left are much better at getting their message out there...

Personally I think this is all moot. _IF_ they sus autonomous cars your neck will snap at how fast things change. Within a decade 80% of the cars on city streets will be fleets of autonomous electric taxis. Ford has already talked about transitioning from a car maker to service provider. Have a long think about the implications of that. Carparks, car dealers, parts, mechanics, state government revenue (the AH's just got me for $177). It will be as big a social and economic transformation as the ICE.

Or we will get hit by a massive solar flare and the whole developed world will descend into a mad max style dystopian wilderness....

[Wretched]

TerraPower were on the cusp of building their traveling-wave reactor (TWR) which ran on the waste from current nuclear plants - depleted uranium.
Unfortunately with the issues between USA and China this has been put on ice. Disappointing but hopefully they can start it up again.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by mick taylor

and build the latest tec Gen 3 power Stations or better. they use the old wast as well not to mention that we have 150 years worth of this dangerous crap just siting around in cased in lead.

The planet is like 70% ocean right?

That means where humans live is only the remaining 30%

My solution is dump the nuclear waste and landfill in the ocean, land is a rare commodity we got plenty of ocean

[Crazy Dazz]

Always nice to see a bit of debate encouraged.

I don't "hate" EVs per se.

What I hate are narrowed minded and ignorant nouveau-green areguments that simply ignore reality:
"Lets not build a new, modern, regulated paper-mill in our state, instead lets ship the wood chips to China, and then ship the paper back. Same for Copper, Steel, etc, etc."
"Our Council should spend millions on a 4-bin recycling system, so I can separate" my trash and feel better about my consumer lifestyle, before it all gets tipped into landfill anyway."
"Yes, lets ban any industry in this country that might actually be able to recycle things, and instead buy everything from China."

And the simple fact is that your EV is only ever going to be as "Green" as the power it uses to charge, and in Australia that means Coal. Dirty, Stinking, Brown Coal.

As for those talking about "delivery costs," ROFL, this again just shows the ignorant "it's free from the guvment" attitude of the neo-hippies.
The infrastructure required to get Electricity to your house costs Billions, and is already overtaxed in most Australian cities. It costs hundreds of millions in repairs and maintenance, and loses a substantial amount to transmission loss.

Let me give you the ACTUAL costs her in Perth.
The Electricity costs about 8c/kWh. (That is the amount that the provider must credit you for feeding back into the grid)
But the charge to the consumer is almost 29c /kWh. That's a 250% markup to deliver the electricity to you.

I don't know the infrastructure costs of reticulated gas, but I would imagine they are far less, as the technology is pretty basis, and transmission loss is negligible.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Let me give you the ACTUAL costs her in Perth.
The Electricity costs about 8c/kWh. (That is the amount that the provider must credit you for feeding back into the grid)
But the charge to the consumer is almost 29c /kWh. That's a 250% markup to deliver the electricity to you.

Profit margin of 72%

That's a bit low, count your lucky stars I sell car parts and not power

[superyob]

'It's never too early to start being a dirty old man'

Is 55 too early FC?

I'll bet it is...

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Nikked

At one stage people thought electric trains would never take off...

And at one point people said the same about the internal combustion engine.

[mick taylor]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

The planet is like 70% ocean right?

That means where humans live is only the remaining 30%

My solution is dump the nuclear waste and landfill in the ocean, land is a rare commodity we got plenty of ocean

You are filling in the ocean that will only raise the water level
I am looking at trying at getting a government contract to dredge out the ocean, well at leads to say around 4 miles out from the land and pump it out on to land to build it all up higher, so when the ocean rises 1 to 2meters higher from now, we should all be ok right, I will have to get the greens to point this out as well, but they will not, because they are not truly green at all, but truly red in fact.

Russia and the USA did dump nuclear wast into the ocean in 44 gallon drums once, maybe I will get the contract to go dig them up and use them as well.

[XByoot]

Originally Posted by mick taylor

Russia and the USA did dump nuclear wast into the ocean in 44 gallon drums once, maybe I will get the contract to go dig them up and use them as well.

Well yeah and they only used good gal drums that would last a long time! Maybe there’s a bit of coin in drum recycling down there?

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by mick taylor

I will have to get the greens to point this out as well, but they will not, because they are not truly green at all, but truly red in fact.

Watermelons

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by mick taylor

Russia and the USA did dump nuclear wast into the ocean in 44 gallon drums once, maybe I will get the contract to go dig them up and use them as well.

Not just the Ruskies and Yanks (infact the Poms beat the Yanks) but quite a few other countries have done there bit, including those Greenpeace loving Kiwis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_...ioactive_waste

[guzzis3]

Wikipedia is terrifying. Think of something you know a lot about. Look it up on wikipedia. Now ask yourself why would any of the other pages be more accurate than the one you just read ?

It is almost as wrong as TV reporters.

Story about searching the indian ocean for that airplane that disappeared: The ocean is 3000 to 5000 kilometers deep in that area

The other night covering the bush fires: Here they are using back hoe to clear the land. It was a front end loader...

Half of them can't even construct a sentence properly nor pronounce common words, like bison (b iy son) pronounced b-ih-son.

But no one cares about accuracy anymore...we are doomed.

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by guzzis3

Wikipedia is terrifying. Think of something you know a lot about. Look it up on wikipedia. Now ask yourself why would any of the other pages be more accurate than the one you just read ?

It is almost as wrong as TV reporters.

Story about searching the indian ocean for that airplane that disappeared: The ocean is 3000 to 5000 kilometers deep in that area

The other night covering the bush fires: Here they are using back hoe to clear the land. It was a front end loader...

Half of them can't even construct a sentence properly nor pronounce common words, like bison (b iy son) pronounced b-ih-son.

But no one cares about accuracy anymore...we are doomed.

....and obviously the sense of humour was beaten out of you years ago, sad

[dunga]

Originally Posted by guzzis3

Wikipedia is terrifying. Think of something you know a lot about. Look it up on wikipedia. Now ask yourself why would any of the other pages be more accurate than the one you just read ?

It is almost as wrong as TV reporters.

Story about searching the indian ocean for that airplane that disappeared: The ocean is 3000 to 5000 kilometers deep in that area

The other night covering the bush fires: Here they are using back hoe to clear the land. It was a front end loader...

Half of them can't even construct a sentence properly nor pronounce common words, like bison (b iy son) pronounced b-ih-son.

But no one cares about accuracy anymore...we are doomed.

5000 km deep really

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by dunga

5000 km deep really

Oh the Irony!

[burnz]

Originally Posted by Sabantien

Banning them? That's ridiculous.
As has already been pointed out, the battery tech keeps changing, and it's likely there'll be better options than lithium going forward.

A big problem in Australia is we burn coal to power them, and that's more the incompetence of our governments than anything else. Our power stations are old, they need replacing, but they keep holding onto the idea that coal is best (read, lines their pockets) even though every other market is transitioning away. Even BHP is giving up on thermal coal.

But it's slowly changing anyhow. My town just opened a geothermal power plant. Every other town out here has big solar farms. Unfortunately it doesn't help us out when the line goes down from Townsville. We all lose power. It's not set up to supply the town independently. A lot of the houses and businesses in town are plastered with solar panels. And if I wasn't renting, i'd do the same thing.

While I don't think people should be forced onto EV, if it suits them, go nuts. It would be great in the city, so long as you have a parking spot. Not everyone does in the inner city.

And being a greenie doesn't mean wanting to go back to the stone age.
Everything we do will have an impact. Greenies happen to like our natural environment, want to live in a clean environment, and try to reduce impact. Reduce. Doesn't go away.

yes they like it so much they want open boarders so we can bulldoze our forest to accommodate them, hook'em up to power and water as well,,
as correctly stated communism dressed as diversity..

[lra]

Originally Posted by mick taylor

I am looking at trying at getting a government contract to dredge out the ocean, well at leads to say around 4 miles out from the land and pump it out on to land to build it all up higher, so when the ocean rises 1 to 2meters higher from now, we should all be ok right:

If you dredge the ocean, that will lower the water-level, so there will be no rising seas. You will defeat the purpose. But if you get that Govt contract, it will all make sense. ( just like this post )

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by guzzis3

Wikipedia is terrifying. Think of something you know a lot about. Look it up on wikipedia. Now ask yourself why would any of the other pages be more accurate than the one you just read ?

It is almost as wrong as TV reporters.

Story about searching the indian ocean for that airplane that disappeared: The ocean is 3000 to 5000 kilometers deep in that area

The other night covering the bush fires: Here they are using back hoe to clear the land. It was a front end loader...

Half of them can't even construct a sentence properly nor pronounce common words, like bison (b iy son) pronounced b-ih-son.

But no one cares about accuracy anymore...we are doomed.

You do know if you find a wiki article with incorrect information, you can correct it? Most articles require citations to back up facts.

[wodahs]

get dale to do the dredging

[guzzis3]

Originally Posted by dunga

5000 km deep really

She had no idea what she was saying. I suspect she started with 3 - 5000 meters and f'd up. It illustrates though just how little thought is going on with them.

When I was young I knew people who tried (for whatever reason) to pursue careers in journalism. They were basically run out of the business. It became clear that while other professions have a minimum intelligence requirement they have a maximum. Whether it's their bosses wanting to control them or supervisors scared of being passed over I don't know, but it was somewhat alarming even to cynical me..After that I really started noticing how dumb they are. Life support systems for hairdos....

Nikked: I am not inclined. If the system worked the pages would not be so hopeless.

DJR-351: On the contrary I find pretty much everything hilarious. We are doomed...

[superyob]

'At one stage people thought electric trains would never take off...'

'And at one point people said the same about the internal combustion engine.'

Who thought/said this???

[burnz]

Originally Posted by superyob

'At one stage people thought electric trains would never take off...'

'And at one point people said the same about the internal combustion engine.'

Who thought/said this???

during the 1920's electric buses (GM) and electric cars (FORD),
ford was the first Alcohol powered car (model A)..
Rockefeller (standard oil) baught the government to have them all band..

[LeadFoot81]

Originally Posted by GasoLane

Nuclear would be the way to go but no Politician would dare suggest it.

Solar is fine we have it on our house, but when there is an outage we still sit in the dark so to speak, and the hotter the ambient temperature the less power the solar panels make.

You could upgrade your system with a battery. When the power goes out down our way we've still got running water, lights, a fridge full of unspoiled food, and HD Netflix.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by LeadFoot81

You could upgrade your system with a battery. When the power goes out down our way we've still got running water, lights, a fridge full of unspoiled food, and HD Netflix.

Would if we could afford it

[kmav23]

Originally Posted by GasoLane

Would if we could afford it

Home batteries are being are becoming more common as the prices fall.

[guzzis3]

Fridges don't pull that much current. Even a small generator will keep it going. Why buy a battery when you can run an engine ?

[Wretched]

We're going to see more and more electric cars with new Euro emissions coming through.

"From 2021, phased in from 2020, the EU fleet-wide average emission target for new cars will be 95 g CO2/km.

This emission level corresponds to a fuel consumption of around 4.1 l/100 km of petrol or 3.6 l/100 km of diesel."

The fines of non compliance are huge - €95 for each g/km over the 95g multiplied by the number of cars sold that are not compliant.
For example - Mercedes Benz are currently at 138 g CO2/km average for their entire passenger car fleet with sales in Europe around 900k.

Therefore their fine would be (43 x 95) x 900 000 - totalling €3,676,500,000‬.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by kmav23

Home batteries are being are becoming more common as the prices fall.

Yeah cause 14k for a battery is such great value.

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by guzzis3

Nothing like a bit of outraged indignation to warm up a thread.

Some of you talk about oil running out. How do you know that ? Do you know where it comes from ? Because I don't and as far as I know no one does. It gets lumped in with coal as a fossil fuel but as far as I know that hasn't been proven.

I spent most of my working life in the research industry. Customers can always get the answer they want if they pay the right people. Fanatics can get a paper published that confirms their beliefs especially if they are left leaning. I'm too busy dealing with a list of medical conditions as long as my arm these days but when I was well I chased down the numbers behind quite a few bits of lefty propaganda disguised as peer reviewed papers and demonstrated they were totally flawed. BS in fact.

_IF_ the japanese claims of 45% efficiency are true we could have upgraded our coal plants 15 years ago and halved our generation emissions as a stop gap, but because of the religious wars that was never going to happen.

A friend in the railways pointed out years ago we still run steam trains, we've just moved the boiler off the tracks to a more remote site so the plebs don't have to see the smoke.

I'm really slow sometimes. It took me a really long time to realise most people aren't after solutions, they just want to fight. Externalising hate, feeling good about yourselves or just being noticed, you kid yourselves your saving the planet or the left legged wombat but it's really not about fixing anything. Just finding a heretic to burn. This applies equally to both extremes, right and left. It's just the left are much better at getting their message out there...

Personally I think this is all moot. _IF_ they sus autonomous cars your neck will snap at how fast things change. Within a decade 80% of the cars on city streets will be fleets of autonomous electric taxis. Ford has already talked about transitioning from a car maker to service provider. Have a long think about the implications of that. Carparks, car dealers, parts, mechanics, state government revenue (the AH's just got me for $177). It will be as big a social and economic transformation as the ICE.

Or we will get hit by a massive solar flare and the whole developed world will descend into a mad max style dystopian wilderness....

Guzzi this is such a good post. Hope you can find answers/healing for the medical stuff. It's too true about people just wanting to rage and feel important - I'd much rather do the solutions, for that stuff is technically interesting.

For eg, I'm a surfer and I did the paddle out for the Bight protests recently. It was great to see the enthusiasm and if we have a pristine Bight now let's keep it that way as a deepwater oil spill would really damage it - but - all the boards were petrochemical (urethane foams, styrene foams, PU resins or epoxy) and everyone seems to have driven there, got the bumpersticker 'No to Big Oil' or whatever it is - and doesn't seem to understand their own purchasing decisions add to the net total demand that sees companies send drill rigs out into the ocean. Being much more about an actual solution, they'd make their boards out of renewable materials and solar/EV or biodiesel or ride a horse to the surf. And not fly on surf trips so much as take a sailing ship to get there. Will they do this?

Agree, if it goes EV it's going to be astonishing the speed it will happen. That 20K economy EV is the holy grail. Presently, we're going to have a 20K hybrid Yaris by next year. Maybe within 2 years of that??

So if we get a massive era-change soon, being car fans here on Ford Forums, is there any one model you'd want to keep for the future? It's likely your future EV will do everything better - be faster, more low down torque, more simple, cheaper servicing: so what from the oil era would you want to shed and keep to enjoy? That's a big question we might want to face. Someone, please save an AU1 Forte.

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by burnz

during the 1920's electric buses (GM) and electric cars (FORD),
ford was the first Alcohol powered car (model A)..
Rockefeller (standard oil) baught the government to have them all band..

You know.

Just remember, we can always go back to alcohol