Now Qantas 3000 jobs to go

[cheap]

I wonder if the apparent lack of support is a consequence of all those years of Union "helpfulness" given to Ford?

But I bet the union officials have got somewhere to go after this gig has finished...

If it is of any comfort in the non-union world it is exactly the same, when the crunch comes it is everyman for themselves.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by cheap

Next we will hear that the unions are just a grown up version of the boy scouts. They are so misunderstood

This is a sample of 6 months of their "collectivism at work"

The outlined events occurred between 13 April 2011 and 29 October 2011

• Union (ALAEA) notifies Qantas of protected industrial action in the form of a one hour stoppage at all Australian ports between 8 am and 9 am;
  
• A single employee, the president of ALAEA, engages in a one hour stoppage;
  
• ALAEA notifies Qantas of protected industrial action in the form of indefinite overtime bans and 2 hour stoppages between 1 am and midday in Melbourne;
• Ditto Perth, Brisbane, Adelaide/Darwin on successive days;
  
• ALAEA notifies Qantas of one minute work stoppage for 15 July 2011, overtime bans and a limitation on how work is customarily performed;
  
• AIPA notifies Qantas of protected industrial action by long haul pilots in the form of bans on complying with Qantas’ in-flight announcement policy and performing work in a manner different from that which is customarily performed;
  
• AIPA notifies Qantas of protected industrial action by two long haul pilots in the form of two minute work stoppages;
  
• Pilots start making AIPA endorsed passenger announcements;
  
• One pilot implemented a ban on working days off;
  
• One pilot engages in two, two minute stoppages;
  
• NUW notifies Qantas of national wide 24 hour stoppages;
  
• ALAEA notifies Qantas of one hour stoppages each weekday from 25 August to 16 December;
  
• ALAEA notifies Qantas of protected industrial action in the form of weekend overtime bans;
  
• TWU notifies Qantas of 4 hour stoppages in all mainland cites and higher duties ban of 48 hours duration;
  
• ALAEA notifies Qantas of full shift stoppages at the heavy maintenance facilities (Avalon and Brisbane)
  
• TWU notifies Qantas of one hour stoppages at 8 am at all major airports;
  
• ALEA calls off four hour work stoppages due to start later that day;
  
• TWU members (baggage handlers and ground crew) engage in two, two hour work stoppages in Melbourne and Sydney;
• TWU lodges an application with Fair Work Australia for a good faith bargaining order, claiming Qantas breached good faith obligations by notifying TWU members through a ‘late-night post delivery’ that Qantas would not accept part performance;
  
• TWU rejects Qantas offer of 3% pa pay increase, a 1% increase to superannuation, no forced redundancies for the life of the agreement;
  
• TWU notifies Qantas (date of AGM) of a one-hour stop-work meeting;
• Ground staff participate in nationwide one hour stop meeting.

So tell me again how cute and lovely the unions are...

http://catallaxyfiles.com/2014/02/28...as-up-against/

a couple of hours here and there !!! very nasty stuff indeed . i see one pilot even participating not to go into work on his day off wooooooh . i'm sorry cheap i wish i'd known this earlier . i wouldnt of posted what the definition of a union is . . and these 2 hour strikes !!!!! no wonder QANTAS is shafting AUSTRALIA .

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by cheap

I wonder if the apparent lack of support is a consequence of all those years of Union "helpfulness" given to Ford?

But I bet the union officials have got somewhere to go after this gig has finished...

If it is of any comfort in the non-union world it is exactly the same, when the crunch comes it is everyman for themselves.

NOT QUITE RIGHT THERE CHEAP . without the union world it doesnt even make the news , and just happens one fellow at a time . often its the bloke replacing you who tells you he has your job now , with a smile .

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by cheap

I wonder if the apparent lack of support is a consequence of all those years of Union "helpfulness" given to Ford?

But I bet the union officials have got somewhere to go after this gig has finished...

If it is of any comfort in the non-union world it is exactly the same, when the crunch comes it is everyman for themselves.

Another post by someone who has zero clue. Ford and the unions have had an excellent relationship over a long period of time. There have been no strikes for at least 15 years, maybe more.

Union officials will be out of work as much as everyone else, they are going to lose a massive chunk of their members and they will have to have huge cut backs too. But you know better right?

[cheap]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

a couple of hours here and there !!! very nasty stuff indeed . i see one pilot even participating not to go into work on his day off wooooooh . i'm sorry cheap i wish i'd known this earlier . i wouldnt of posted what the definition of a union is . . and these 2 hour strikes !!!!! no wonder QANTAS is shafting AUSTRALIA .

Actually it only takes a couple of hours here and there to severely impact a business, typical terrorist tactics and the unions are masters. That's why Joyce eventually said enough is enough and grounded the fleet.

[ray38l]

Originally Posted by NX74205

22 years ago, Emirates were a small regional middle-eastern airline that hardly anyone in Australia have heard of. 22 years ago, Qantas had roughly 40% of all outbound international traffic, now it's more like 15%. 22 years ago, the price of fuel was less than half of what it is today.

22 years ago, the Qantas Sale Act made perfect sense. Now, it is no longer viable to have Qantas compete with one arm tied behind its back, with the average wage about double that of Emirates', and no ability to seek investors from outside Australia as a result of an anachronistic Act made at a time when Qantas were prosperous. It's not the time to argue over whose fault it is that Qantas are in a position they are in now, but rather we should be focusing on saving the company as the top priority. It is because Qantas is an Australian icon that it must survive, whatever the cost. If that means getting rid of the Qantas Sale Act, tough.

It seems to only be a recent problem with Qantas, dare I say it since alan joyce has been in charge. He knew that the sale act was there when he took the job, and it seems since he cant run the company under those conditions that it must go. every other CEO of Qantas over 22 years has been able to run the company with the sale act in place.

If Qantas get what they want and get rid of the sale act and a debt guarantee then virgin should as well.

[ray38l]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

the very word union . means (a collective of people) -more than one .
the union organisation . is only a management committee providing legal representation of a (collective of people) THE PEOPLE ARE THE UNION .
UNITED WE STAND - DIVIDED WE FALL . so many uneducated people in this country now who somehow have lost the pricipal of how to DEMAND ! WIN negotiate . I SWEAR someone must of changed our DNA not so long ago , probably when the calculator came about .

'

I agree that the unions used to be like this.
Now they are merely a stepping stone for there leaders to become a Labor MP, or to use the credit cards on hookers and porn...

[cheap]

I wonder if anyone else see's the irony to the situation.

The CO2 tax has a profoundly bad impact on the Qantas business.
The CO2 tax was introduced by the ALP
The Unions locked in steadfast supporting the CO2 tax, knowing that many of the industries most at risk to the CO2 tax were also union shops
The unions who totally hate Abbott's government now demand his governments help
Meanwhile the ALP who could enable the repeal of the disastrous CO2 tax sit there pointing at unicorns

You couldn't make this stuff up...

[BHDOGS]

does every thread you post in have to get back to the carbon tax let it go already

[mr smith]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Ford and the unions have had an excellent relationship over a long period of time. There have been no strikes for at least 15 years, maybe more.

That's not true. No ongoing strikes, but the union and in Geelong especially, are pretty militant. I do feel the unions and Australian labour laws played a big part in the closure.
Its going to be like a hit with a sledgehammer for those union workers when they hit the "real" labour market.

[csv8]

Photo's of the damage http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/trav...301-33so3.html

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by cheap

Actually it only takes a couple of hours here and there to severely impact a business, typical terrorist tactics and the unions are masters. That's why Joyce eventually said enough is enough and grounded the fleet.

not worth it . i'm leaving this thread . i'm on reasonable $$ . and support living wages . all you dreamers can clap yourselves down the gurgler and blame unions . sorry for your bad luck and poverty . i say change your ways and join a collective . on 2nd thoughts dont do it . just keep clapping when people join you at the 40k mark . LOL

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by mr smith

That's not true. No ongoing strikes, but the union and in Geelong especially, are pretty militant. I do feel the unions and Australian labour laws played a big part in the closure.
Its going to be like a hit with a sledgehammer for those union workers when they hit the "real" labour market.

Know I know how much you are talking crap. I'm a rep in geelong lol.

Militant, that's hilarious.

[csv8]

After posting a record pre-tax profit of $8.8 billion in North America for 2013, the strongest in more than a decade, Ford announced plans to share some of the rewards with its U.S. employees.

The Blue Oval said it would pay an average of $8,800 (approximately €6,450 at today's exchange rates) to about 47,000 eligible U.S. hourly workers on March 13, 2014. That's $500 more than last year’s record payment of $8,300.

Ford noted that individual profit sharing payments might be higher or lower based on employee compensated hours.

The bonus payments are part a deal signed between the United Auto Workers (UAW) union and Ford in 2011, under which, employees forgo any substantial annual wage increases for lump-sum payments and profit sharing.

General Motors and Chrysler LLC, which agreed to similar labor contracts after their bankruptcy procedures, are also expected to announce profit-sharing checks for their hourly employees in the coming days and weeks.
http://www.carscoops.com/2014/01/for...rs-record.html

[buggerlugs]

Originally Posted by csv8

Photo's of the damage http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/trav...301-33so3.html

"Minor scrape my **** !!!!" Classic..............

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by ray38l

or to use the credit cards on hookers and porn...

Why was that even a big thing in the media for, its not like he was spending government money on hookers and porn, it was union money, it should be an internal thing for the union to deal with.

[xtremerus]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Why was that even a big thing in the media for, its not like he was spending government money on hookers and porn, it was union money, it should be an internal thing for the union to deal with.

But it wasn't HIS money. That is the whole point.
The Union DIDN'T deal with it, and it became public.
If he paid for all that with his OWN money, no-one could care less.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by xtremerus

But it wasn't HIS money. That is the whole point.
The Union DIDN'T deal with it, and it became public.
If he paid for all that with his OWN money, no-one could care less.

Its still their issue, if he spent tax payer $$$ on hookers well then it would be worthy of government intervention.

And like all the other politicians are squeaky clean, they're all scumbags living out of the tax payer wallet. He was just unfortunate enough to get it brought to attention.

Going overseas to "study" something, or all the previous PM's and all their free **** on our behalf.

[NX74205]

Originally Posted by ray38l

It seems to only be a recent problem with Qantas, dare I say it since alan joyce has been in charge. He knew that the sale act was there when he took the job, and it seems since he cant run the company under those conditions that it must go. every other CEO of Qantas over 22 years has been able to run the company with the sale act in place.

If Qantas get what they want and get rid of the sale act and a debt guarantee then virgin should as well.

Every other CEO of Qantas did not have to contend with the ever expanding Virgin Australia entering Qantas' territory as a full service domestic carrier as opposed to a low cost carrier. Every other CEO of Qantas did not have to contend with the poor fleet planning decisions in the past that left Qantas without a long haul aircraft smaller than the 747-400. Every other CEO of Qantas did not have to contend with the effects of the rapid expansion of Emirates into the Australian market (and indeed, everywhere) which has practically resulted in Qantas pulling out everywhere except SYD.

The environment in which Qantas competes has changed drastically.

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by NX74205

Every other CEO of Qantas did not have to contend with the ever expanding Virgin Australia entering Qantas' territory as a full service domestic carrier as opposed to a low cost carrier. Every other CEO of Qantas did not have to contend with the poor fleet planning decisions in the past that left Qantas without a long haul aircraft smaller than the 747-400. Every other CEO of Qantas did not have to contend with the effects of the rapid expansion of Emirates into the Australian market (and indeed, everywhere) which has practically resulted in Qantas pulling out everywhere except SYD.

The environment in which Qantas competes has changed drastically.

And maybe every other CEO has had the job to maintain business, perhaps its Joyces job to break the QSA 1992, break the unions break the high wage strangle and get some money from the taxpayer. And he might be going a great job. From the outside we can only guess, he is still there and perhaps that is the reason.

JP

[ray38l]

Originally Posted by NX74205

Every other CEO of Qantas did not have to contend with the ever expanding Virgin Australia entering Qantas' territory as a full service domestic carrier as opposed to a low cost carrier. Every other CEO of Qantas did not have to contend with the poor fleet planning decisions in the past that left Qantas without a long haul aircraft smaller than the 747-400. Every other CEO of Qantas did not have to contend with the effects of the rapid expansion of Emirates into the Australian market (and indeed, everywhere) which has practically resulted in Qantas pulling out everywhere except SYD.

The environment in which Qantas competes has changed drastically.

Once again all those things you use as excuses he would have known about before he took the job. So he either took the job on thinking he was better then what he was or it was a pre conceived idea between the board and him to get rid of the sale act.

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by ray38l

Once again all those things you use as excuses he would have known about before he took the job. So he either took the job on thinking he was better then what he was or it was a pre conceived idea between the board and him to get rid of the sale act.

The rot started before AJ became CEO of Qantas, GD has a lot to answer for, agreeing to all those EBA's with Qantas employees, poor fleet purchasing decisions etc. No doubt AJ is part of the problem, but he's not the entire cause of Qantas financial woes.

Hearing Tony Sheldon over the last few days leads me to think he's going to be an ongoing contributing factor for Qantas woes and needs to be dealt with by the company.

[cheap]

Repealing the QSA sounds simple but will introduce a whole new set of unintended consequences. The big issue is that we deregulated our financial markets, floated the dollar, opened up to globalisation BUT parts of our economy have a highly regulated labour market. It isn't a coincidence that the businesses which are in pain/closed/life support are all rigid union shops, it isn't a coincidence that they all want or have received government aid handouts to prop up the uncompetitive workforce, this approach worked whilst the ALP/unions were in government, but it isn't going so well with the new government. The solution would be (as painful as it sounds to some people) to free up the labour market.

[ltd]

Let me just say one thing, the rot has been in place for years - when it was government owned it was a sheltered workshop.
The reason Qantas had such a great reputation for maintenance was simply 10 people doing the job of two, so nothing was overlooked. Further, there were manufacturers recommendations on serviceability of parts during overhauls, Qantas on many occasions replaced parts that still had service life left in them, or overhauled parts that were much cheaper to replace. This in itself was uncompetitive, and if there was a loss to be made it wasn't known to the public.
Since the sale in 1992, the challenge has always been to find efficiency and get rid of the deadwood, and every CEO has had this challenge.
As cheap has said, in recent years there has been several emerging threats which have increased competition and ended the protected status which Qantas has had geographically, legislatively and commercially.
Alan Joyce and the board should go, and a new team which can rally the support of the staff left needs to be put in place.

[Franco Cozzo]

Personally I think they should block the repeal of the QANTAS sale act, I'd rather it be dead than 100% foreign owned and riding on our reputation still using the Kangaroo, they'll completely remove all the Australian staff anyway if it was foreign owned, or run with a very small crew here.

[GT0132]

Originally Posted by NX74205

22 years ago, Emirates were a small regional middle-eastern airline that hardly anyone in Australia have heard of. 22 years ago, Qantas had roughly 40% of all outbound international traffic, now it's more like 15%. 22 years ago, the price of fuel was less than half of what it is today.

22 years ago, the Qantas Sale Act made perfect sense. Now, it is no longer viable to have Qantas compete with one arm tied behind its back, with the average wage about double that of Emirates'

....and in 22 years the amount they can charge for a seat has probably gone down by 50% as well.

[ebxr8240]

How much do Emirates pays for fuel ?

[csv8]

Whatever shape Qantas finds itself in a year from now, it seems unlikely Alan Joyce will still be running the airline. The current board, led by Leigh Clifford, is also likely to be different.

The brutal reality is Joyce has put himself in a catch-22 situation by politicising the woes of the airline and insisting he is blameless, and that he has the full backing of the board and his shareholders. ''There is nothing anybody in Qantas has done that has caused this issue,'' he said.

At the end of the day, although Australians still consider Qantas their national carrier, albeit with less fervour after he grounded the airline on October 29, 2011 to break a deadlock with three unions, the lure of cheap air tickets dominates. And politicians have an eye for the votes.

It explains why Virgin Australia boss John Borghetti opened his half-yearly results posing the questions: ''What do we want the future of aviation in Australia to be? Do we want to go back to the days of the 1980s, when there was a regulated market and government-supported airlines were cumbersome, expensive, bureaucratic and airfares were high? Or do we want to continue what was started in the 1990s, following the path of other countries such as the US, Europe and Japan, in deregulating the market and encouraging competition, choice and innovation for the benefit of customers?''
Advertisement

Joyce has not endeared himself to the Australian public or staff with his various tactics since October 2011.

In the past couple of years, his various tactics and brawls with staff and rival Virgin to maintain a 65 per cent market share has made him the most disliked chief executive since Sol Trujillo waved goodbye after a controversial stint at Telstra.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/business/wing-...#ixzz2uuF2IeVk

[cs123]

Looks like the politicians are playing politics with Qantas now. Don't you just love our representatives in Canberra. And I'm talking about both sides here…..

[jd dad]

If Qantas has been losing tens of millions over the last three years how do their execs justify the over 80% pay raises they have taken? Urging wage restraint from their workers whilst snuffling in the trough is hardly inspiring leadership is it? I realise this isn't the cause of the problem but it seems all the high flying CEO's operate on the same level. Screw the workers for everything, take huge salaries and perks then when it all falls over grab the golden handshake and move to the next victim.