Countdown to new LPG I6

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by PoweredByCNG

Haven't heard anything about transmissions issues either. The three reasons why Ford would want to cap the power output are:

1. To match the figures of the petrol engine.

2. To improve the fuel consumption of the LPG engine.

3. To allow for future detuning if/when required.

Also, there may be emissions and parts longevity constraints as well.

I think you may mean 'future retuning' not detuning.... This is pretty common on all engine power packs from all brands....gives you room to move and keep things fresh withouth increased expenditure.

The issue of reliability is also well put. I don't see the need (though ti would be cool) of putting a i6t kind of HP into what is primarily an 'eco' model (at least as percieved by the marketplace). Given that EB will not be available for another 6months or so after the LPI comes online, and the I6 plant will not lose any business by LPI substituting petrol I6, the way to go is to make it as frugal as possible. This way any shortfalls in I6 production with EB coming and diesel territory will be made up by increases in LPG engines.....

Given the amount of time ford has spent on this (in house delays or otherwise) there has been more than enough time to get the calibrations right. The info provided RE the level of engineering involved (bespoke pistons etc.) shows that as usual, despite horrid marketing ford can still engineer its vehicles very well indeed. Provided it has similar perf as the petrol version (which is hardly a problem) then make it as frugal as possible i say. Nothing fleets like more than lower burn, lower co2 figures. I think EB+ecoLPI will give falcon a very big boost in the fleet department versus camry et al.

I also agree ford needs to sell this tech properly if they are to get any sort of private buyer interest. With the new marketing guy at the helm and talk of new ad campaigns in the coming year i hope they can finally get a win in the marketplace as well as win in the tech wars.....

[naddis01]

If all this talk of the LPI being detuned is correct I would like Ford to introduce it will a slight power advantage over the petrol, say 5kw. The reason being one of the myths now of LPG is that it robs power. If the LPI comes out with more power than that will help with the marketing and remove this stigma.

[Dr Smith]

So who wants to guess on the option price...I'll start with say $3000.

[spvd02]

$2500

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

Still? They're both old boxes. I don't know why the 6HP26 isn't standard across the range.

Their both HP26's, but the turbo version has 2 extra clutches in the clutch packs, while the SC V8 version has another one on top of that for a total of 7.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

That's probably more down to engine mapping. But the 3.7 produces it's torque a full 1000 rpm less... and less of it. Which is less economic in a sense. But then the 3.7 has an aluminium block, so it's always at an optimum operating temperature.

Good engine none the less. But the 3.5 would probably become standard on the Falcon. A sad day indeed. And it could produce less power because they fit SS exhausts on US models.

Falcon was always to get the RWD 3.7, the first test group had VCT on the inlet but the second group were same spec as Mustang V6. Don't be thinking just because the torque peak is 1000 rpm higher that the bottom end suffers, the 6-speed auto more than makes up for the slight deficit in torque.

EDIT: Have you checked out all the models on the Ford NA website.. let alone all the different engine configs? You really see who need the 'One Ford' treatment the most.

While that's true, Ford NA are coming to the end of their product rationalisation
the platform count is being severely reduced and while there seems to be a lot of vehicles,
there will only be around six car and SUV platforms, excluding F Truck and E-series Van.
That's a huge drop considering they had around 18 platforms three years ago.

Engines:
- 1.6 - Fiesta
- DI 2.0 and 2.0 EB
- 2.5 I-4 and 2.5 I-4 Atkinson ( not sure if DI 2.0 will replace these next year)
- D30 V6 (terminating in near future)
- D35/D37/EB35
- 5.0 V8
- 6.2 V8
- 6.7 V8 diesel

5.4 V8 and 6.8 V10 are continuing in E series for now but will cease next year
4.6 2V stays in panther and E-series van until November

[PoweredByCNG]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

So who wants to guess on the option price...I'll start with say $3000.

I agree that $3000 is be where the ballpark figure will be.

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

5.4 V8 and 6.8 V10 are continuing in E series for now but will cease next year
4.6 2V stays in panther and E-series van until November

They've even got a 4.0L V6!?! .... But it's crap.

The 3.7 I think should be dropped. In favour of an increased displacement 3.5 with DI.

I also read that they're continuing with the V10 in the F5/6 series trucks as opposed to the 6.7L diesel... because it's more fuel efficient!?! From Autoblog I think.

Anyway. Ford NA.... they are/were a serious money bleed with all that diversity.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

The 3.7 I think should be dropped. In favour of an increased displacement 3.5 with DI.

The 3.7 is the 3.5 with increased displacement. They're from the same engine family just one has a larger bore.

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

I think you may mean 'future retuning' not detuning.... This is pretty common on all engine power packs from all brands....gives you room to move and keep things fresh withouth increased expenditure.

The issue of reliability is also well put. I don't see the need (though ti would be cool) of putting a i6t kind of HP into what is primarily an 'eco' model (at least as percieved by the marketplace). Given that EB will not be available for another 6months or so after the LPI comes online, and the I6 plant will not lose any business by LPI substituting petrol I6, the way to go is to make it as frugal as possible. This way any shortfalls in I6 production with EB coming and diesel territory will be made up by increases in LPG engines.....

Given the amount of time ford has spent on this (in house delays or otherwise) there has been more than enough time to get the calibrations right. The info provided RE the level of engineering involved (bespoke pistons etc.) shows that as usual, despite horrid marketing ford can still engineer its vehicles very well indeed. Provided it has similar perf as the petrol version (which is hardly a problem) then make it as frugal as possible i say. Nothing fleets like more than lower burn, lower co2 figures. I think EB+ecoLPI will give falcon a very big boost in the fleet department versus camry et al.

I also agree ford needs to sell this tech properly if they are to get any sort of private buyer interest. With the new marketing guy at the helm and talk of new ad campaigns in the coming year i hope they can finally get a win in the marketplace as well as win in the tech wars.....

It doesn't make sense for Ford to continue investing, and releasing new products if they plan on canning the locally made RWD Falcon... and all the information they're gathering from it. LPi... Ford has nothing like it anywhere else. EcoBoost RWD. Ford has nothing like it anywhere else. Ford Australia really is important to the empire.... by the kind of unique research that can be conducted here.

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

The 3.7 is the 3.5 with increased displacement. They're from the same engine family just one has a larger bore.

You're right. They're both from the cyclone engine family. But the 3.5 has DI. So whatever it takes to get the DI on the 3.7, with the least money spent.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

They've even got a 4.0L V6!?! .... But it's crap.

Discontinued, Cologne engines are stockpiled and expected to run out with end of Ranger.

The 3.7 I think should be dropped. In favour of an increased displacement 3.5 with DI.

3.7 is a big bore version of the 3.5, it is a better mouse trap in NA form.
Ford is arguably achieving more with PFI than GM has with DI.

I also read that they're continuing with the V10 in the F5/6 series trucks as opposed to the 6.7L diesel... because it's more fuel efficient!?! From Autoblog I think.

That is due to the amount of idling time, the diesel has to cycle its particle filters or something to maintain emission compliance but the word is that the 6.2 will replace the 6.8 at the next product cycle, a lot of the larger trucks don't sell in much volume compared to F150/F250 so there's little need to change things right away.
Pretty sure that 4.6/5.4/6.8 mods are all being supplied form forward built stock be fore change over to 5.0/6.2 engines in approx 12-18 months..

Anyway. Ford NA.... they are/were a serious money bleed with all that diversity.

Not anymore,
Huge turnaround in North America, they are now making serious money in a depressed market...
Most of Ford's North American plants are running 2 or 3 shifts to keep up with demand,
the exceptions would be Ranger in Kansas, E-Series at Avon lake, and Mustang at Flat Rock
oh and Panther plant at Saint Thomas.
^^^^^^^ two of those plants are gone later this year.....

[HULK EF]

Wonders if a flash tuner #4 Will unlock capabilities of the new LPG engine? lol

[PoweredByCNG]

The developmental mule that I saw at Orbital in 2009 used the same ECU as the aftermarket Orbital LLI systems. This means that the production EcoLPI engines will most likely retain two ECUs (the original petrol ECU and the Vialle LPI ECU) and, because Vialle/Orbital password-protect their calibration software, flash tuning will likely yield poor results unless the LPG system is recalibrated to suit.

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

3.7 is a big bore version of the 3.5, it is a better mouse trap in NA form. Ford is arguably achieving more with PFI than GM has with DI.

I'm getting confused with EcoBoost. The NA 3.5L is MPFI.

After all this talk over the V6's. I'd still like to see further improvements made to the I6... like a cast aluminium block.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

You're right. They're both from the cyclone engine family. But the 3.5 has DI. So whatever it takes to get the DI on the 3.7, with the least money spent.

No, only the Ecoboost 3.5 V6 has Direct Injection, the Duratec 35/37 both have PFI.

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

I'm getting confused with EcoBoost. The NA 3.5L is MPFI.

After all this talk over the V6's. I'd still like to see further improvements made to the I6... like a cast aluminium block.

Good plan but too late.....

Oh well.....

[Bobman]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Good plan but too late.....

Oh well.....

Just like it was too late in 2008? Lol, speculators are amusing.

[Road_Warrior]

IF the FG carries through to 1015, I'd like to think the 'ol I6 still has a few tricks up its sleeve. Sans alloy block.

[PoweredByCNG]

Back OT now, please!

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Bobman

Just like it was too late in 2008?

It nearly was, here's a trinket for you:
Without someone reviewing the I-6 on the emission software
package intended for T6 Ranger, the I-6 would have been history...

Lol, speculators are amusing.

I'm not the one speculating about an expensive alloy block.......

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by PoweredByCNG

Back OT now, please!

Yes. Talk of LPi makes me salivate.

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Their both HP26's, but the turbo version has 2 extra clutches in the clutch packs, while the SC V8 version has another one on top of that for a total of 7.

So they have three different configs? So theoretically they could bring us a balls and all LPi sporty version.... but it would put the petrol to shame.

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

IF the FG carries through to 1015, I'd like to think the 'ol I6 still has a few tricks up its sleeve. Sans alloy block.

1015! The Falcon was a just a bird then. But by 2015. FoA would have/ should have done something to keep the I6 spicy. They have another emissions regulation to meet before Falcon is up. But then they could land the V6 on us.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by PoweredByCNG

The developmental mule that I saw at Orbital in 2009 used the same ECU as the aftermarket Orbital LLI systems. This means that the production EcoLPI engines will most likely retain two ECUs (the original petrol ECU and the Vialle LPI ECU) and, because Vialle/Orbital password-protect their calibration software, flash tuning will likely yield poor results unless the LPG system is recalibrated to suit.

I can see why they retain two ECUs, the FG uses its CPU as controller for more than engine management...
like body ECU , ABS brakes, DSC ect... In LPG, the Vialle is the engine management ECU which is governed by the Ford ECU since it also controls all the other ECUs in the car as well.

The trick will be getting the password unlocked, might need to get the Gen Y and Z code crackers onto that,,,,

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

I can see why they retain two ECUs, the FG uses its CPU as controller for more than engine management...
like body ECU , ABS brakes, DSC ect... In LPG, the Vialle is the engine management ECU which is governed by the Ford ECU since it also controls all the other ECUs in the car as well.

The trick will be getting the password unlocked, might need to get the Gen Y and Z code crackers onto that,,,,

Maybe PowerByCNG can just drive over to the Orbital factory and ask if they will tune it for him?

[PoweredByCNG]

Well I have half of the puzzle. I have the Vialle LPI software on my computer, but I don't have access to the calibration features. How annoying...

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by PoweredByCNG

Well I have half of the puzzle. I have the Vialle LPI software on my computer, but I don't have access to the calibration features. How annoying...

Is that a calibration software an in-house only program or available at extreme cost?
OEM and early adopters tend to jealously guard anything to do with controlling software..

[PoweredByCNG]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Is that a calibration software an in-house only program or available at extreme cost?
OEM and early adopters tend to jealously guard anything to do with controlling software..

I obtained it from the owner of a Vialle LPI system in the Netherlands where the system originates from. Local installers also have access to the exact same software.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by PoweredByCNG

I obtained it from the owner of a Vialle LPI system in the Netherlands where the system originates from. Local installers also have access to the exact same software.

Hmm, I recall that Ford Netherlands released LPG versions of Fiesta, Focus and Mondeo,
I wonder if they use a similar system to that coming on the Falcon...

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

Yes. Talk of LPi makes me salivate.
So they have three different configs? So theoretically they could bring us a balls and all LPi sporty version.... but it would put the petrol to shame.
1015! The Falcon was a just a bird then. But by 2015. FoA would have/ should have done something to keep the I6 spicy. They have another emissions regulation to meet before Falcon is up. But then they could land the V6 on us.

Its the rear end that becomes the weak link in a high power LPi setup as it runs the standard NA 6 version, not the heavier duty turbo/V8 version, which is more expensive, and won't be used to keep the costs of the LPG option down. Durability will be fine for the lower power tune they have chosen.

There is no current date for the Euro 5 emissions start date, the government is still debating it.

I don't think the I6 will get anything new after FG2, it will more than likely carry through to 2015/16 as it is. They won't spend money on a dead duck when the production figures are getting so low. 190 a day is chicken feed, it was like 480 a day during BA, thats a massive drop and has more than likely sealed its fate as those numbers aren't viable long term.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I don't think the I6 will get anything new after FG2, it will more than likely carry through to 2015/16 as it is. They won't spend money on a dead duck when the production figures are getting so low. 190 a day is chicken feed, it was like 480 a day during BA, thats a massive drop and has more than likely sealed its fate as those numbers aren't viable long term.

In fairness to that "dead duck", they still made improvements to the I6 even after the engine plant closure was announced, unless those improvements were already approved and in the product plan. So there may be some further improvements and refinements ahead, but I don't think it will be anything substantial.

And realistically, short of going to an alloy block and direct injection, what more can they do to an engine that is basically at the top of its game?

[Bobman]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

They won't spend money on a dead duck when the production figures are getting so low.

I guess that's why they hand-built the last of the old V8s in the AUIII? It was too a dead duck.