Legalities of off-street burnouts

daniel_rossy · 05-08-2013, 07:15 PM

I'm not sure if this is in the right section so please move it if it is, but I am after some advise on what you guys think of this..
My mates relatives have built a concrete slab purely for off-street burnouts on private property. It is 20m x 25m. Anyway the local police have now turned against it and sent them a letter saying stop it or we will impound your cars and a few other laws..

It is located on a farm in Victoria, out of town boundaries in a non-residential area. The most direct route to the pad is through 3 paddlocks and have to open 3 seperate gates to get to it, the closest road is a gravel road about 200 meters away from it.

When it was first laid a few months ago, the police said it was a good idea to get everyone off the street as long as there were no drink driving, not at night-time and be generally safe.
The letter pretty much stated that they are aware of the burnout pad it cannot be used for such activities anymore and sent us the offences that will apply that includes

Sections 48 of environmental protection act - Objectionable/unreasonable noise - On the spot fines can be issued for failing to abate residential noise in a residential area of $704

Section 64 of the Road safety act - Manner Dangerous - relates to dangerous driving. This offence is heard and determined at Court and carries a term of imprisonment with a loss of licence

Section 65A of the Road safety act - Improper use of a motor vehicle Police have the power to impound a motor vehicle used in the commission of these offences

Anyway, i was after some advise on what you think about this. The letter is at a solicitors at the moment. But from what we new/were told from solicitors and police before they made the burnout pad that you can do it in private property, the same with paddock bombs ect. And from what it looks like they are road rules, which dont all apply on private property.

Thanks

FGII-XR6 · 05-08-2013, 07:27 PM

I think they are right some laws relating to motor vehicles are not restricted to public roads, for example drive drunk on private property and they can still knock you off.
legally licenced motorsport events are an exception but they have rules they have scrutineering they have insurance and they have officials who are vetted by the appropriate motorsport body.
private burnout pads while sounding like a good idea have the potential to go horribly wrong. And apart from what I mentioned above I'm sure workcover would be interested and believe me their fines make police fines like like petty cash

MrEL · 05-08-2013, 07:28 PM

Legislation changed recently making standard road rules apply to private property as well.
It would have to be an **** of a police officer to do you for it but providing no one was being a total tard.

daniel_rossy · 05-08-2013, 07:30 PM

Yeah after having looked into it myself there are a few things they say about licensed motorsport events ect. Thanks for your input, appreciate it.

And yes, they have been out there a couple of times and a few police officers said it was a great idea but others obviously not so much.

GTpilot · 05-08-2013, 08:23 PM

What ever happened to this great country?

Danny · 05-08-2013, 08:32 PM

What if you built your own track?

CFOUR · 05-08-2013, 08:54 PM

the road rules only apply to 1]registered cars, 2]licensed drivers and 3]non-private property. however you only need one of the 3 requisites to be subject to the laws. nanny state indeed.

BadMax · 05-08-2013, 08:55 PM

This country is ****** and Victoria is leading the way!

FGII-XR6 · 05-08-2013, 09:02 PM

at first you may think this a bad move, but give it some thought. is any motorsport event that is not run with the guidance of cams or a similar body and without insurance really a good and safe thing? some people may think how hard could it be to but together an event? do you think organisers throw bucket loads of cash at setting up facilities and running events the way they do because the like wasting money?

I think unlicenced, unsanctioned motorsport events are dangerous and stopping them will ensure that legit events are not tarnished by the potential death, mayhem and destruction from illegal events.
this isn't about spoiling everyone fun this is about preventing dangerous cowboy outfits giving legal events a bad name

Spurious · 05-08-2013, 09:15 PM

Sounds to me like the local cops enjoy throwing their weight around. Always sticking their snouts in where it 'aint needed. Here's a tip, something is only considered illegal if an officer of the law "witnesses" it. An offence that is "heard" must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. I ask you, is it "illegal" to NOT use your indicator when there's no-one there to see it? If a tree falls in a forest blah blah blah...you get the idea. No-one can be charged with something the cops "thought" they did! So tell your mate's to build a fence!

mik · 05-08-2013, 10:16 PM

looking at it from a police point of view ,
A, if the police know about it and allow it and **** hits the fan, ie, the driver dies or a spectator dies they may get their asses kicked for allowing it.

b, the burnout pad could end up being a magnet for others to attend participate/spectate, then it becomes a big safety issue.
c, as they mentioned noise can travel, as can tyre smoke, more possible grief for police.

BadMax · 05-08-2013, 10:48 PM

Couldn't the cops be charged with trespassing? Surely they just can't wonder into private property without permission of the owners?

FGII-XR6 · 05-08-2013, 11:10 PM

yea right! the police have the right to enter enclosed lands to investigate any offence, to server notices or any other reason connected with legitimate duties.
you know you would get treated better by the police if you didn't call them pigs? they are ordinary people doing a difficult job, often dealing with moronic criminal low lifes who have no regard for society as a whole. they put their lives on the line every time they put on the uniform, not an easy job

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadMax

Couldn't the pigs be charged with trespassing? Surely they just can't wonder into private property without permission of the owners?

Nikked · 05-08-2013, 11:21 PM

So...does this apply for the kid with dirt jumps for his pushy? Or the moto rider who has a moto-x track out on someone's property?

State stupidity at its highest form!

calais · 05-08-2013, 11:28 PM

Id question the motives of the officers serving such a prohibition notice.

Do the owners of the said property have any prior reason to be known to police? Also the zoning of the land doesnt match the description from the OP.

If it is in fact residential, I wouldnt exactly appreciate the noise and air pollution from a burnout party nextdoor either.

LTDHO · 06-08-2013, 08:12 AM

Damn shame, you try and do the right thing and still face possible prosecution.

If it can be done at professional tracks, then you can too. However, you will need to meet the same rules and guidelines the tracks do. Which is more than just having a concrete slab!

Good luck mate.

Iggypoppin' · 06-08-2013, 08:17 AM

Reminds me of when I was younger and we went rally bashing with some paddock bombs out at nuriootpa. Most of us were a few beers under but it didn't matter as we were on private land, nearest neighbor over 5 kays out. I'd like to think I could still do this sort of thing (albeit not drinking perhaps) and not get hassled by the police. It's a little irritating that you can't even enjoy yourself on private property anymore.

BadMax · 06-08-2013, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by au3xr6

they put their lives on the line every time they put on the uniform, not an easy job

And nobody is holding a knife to their throat forcing them to do the job. They perform the tasks willingly or they shouldn't be in the role.
When they learn to respect me and call me Sir, I'll reciprocate the respect to them.

How many of us learned to drive a farm hack at the age of 13 like me? Or ride a motorbike or gokart on a private farm? Wouldn't it be a shame if these road rules started spilling over onto private property?

You can bet your **** it will...

Kable72 · 06-08-2013, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by au3xr6

yea right! the police have the right to enter enclosed lands to investigate any offence, to server notices or any other reason connected with legitimate duties.
you know you would get treated better by the police if you didn't call them pigs? they are ordinary people doing a difficult job, often dealing with moronic criminal low lifes who have no regard for society as a whole. they put their lives on the line every time they put on the uniform, not an easy job

For the most part I respect the law but this is just pathetic. Soon enough you won't be able to do anything with your cars regardless if public or private property. I thought that was the whole idea of the ROAD laws as they are to be enforced on government roads, not your own land. You own that land, you have the right to make yourself a track/burnout pad. I remember when I was about 17 riding bikes on my mates property about 10ks outside of Bundaberg. Had the police rock up and try to confiscate our bikes because the cops drove past the property and seen us riding.

superyob · 06-08-2013, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadMax

And nobody is holding a knife to their throat forcing them to do the job. They perform the tasks willingly or they shouldn't be in the role.
When they learn to respect me and call me Sir, I'll reciprocate the respect to them.

How many of us learned to drive a farm hack at the age of 13 like me? Or ride a motorbike or gokart on a private farm? Wouldn't it be a shame if these road rules started spilling over onto private property?

You can bet your **** it will...

And they are willingly charging you for breaking the law.
Why do the police have to 'learn to respect' you? Why are you special, out of the thousands of people they have to deal with? Go to the local police station and demand they call you 'Sir', instead of whinging in the safe anonymity of a forum...

Dash_XR · 06-08-2013, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iggypoppin'

Reminds me of when I was younger and we went rally bashing with some paddock bombs out at nuriootpa. Most of us were a few beers under but it didn't matter as we were on private land, nearest neighbor over 5 kays out. I'd like to think I could still do this sort of thing (albeit not drinking perhaps) and not get hassled by the police. It's a little irritating that you can't even enjoy yourself on private property anymore.

You should Google "Agenda 21".

Kable72 · 06-08-2013, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by superyob

And they are willingly charging you for breaking the law.
Why do the police have to 'learn to respect' you? Why are you special, out of the thousands of people they have to deal with? Go to the local police station and demand they call you 'Sir', instead of whinging in the safe anonymity of a forum...

If you're disrespectful to one, do you expect respect in return? It's a two way street.

**PG2** · 06-08-2013, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlivverFord

Sounds to me like the local cops enjoy throwing their weight around. Always sticking their snouts in where it 'aint needed. Here's a tip, something is only considered illegal if an officer of the law "witnesses" it. An offence that is "heard" must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. I ask you, is it "illegal" to NOT use your indicator when there's no-one there to see it? If a tree falls in a forest blah blah blah...you get the idea. No-one can be charged with something the cops "thought" they did! So tell your mate's to build a fence!

So if I commit a break and enter and an officer of the law does not "witness" it (by your definition, see it) I can get away with it?

Think about this even with a fence built around it. So if an officer of the law can hear tyres screeching, can see smoke and can smell the aroma of burnt rubber all coming from the same area he or she can't gain entry and take action?

Kable72 · 06-08-2013, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PG2

So if I commit a murder and an officer of the law does not "witness" it (by your definition, see it) I can get away with it?

Think about this even with a fence built around it. So if an officer of the law can hear tyres screeching, can see smoke and can smell the aroma of burnt rubber all coming from the same area he or she can't gain entry and take action?

There is a difference with violating human rights and road laws. They are two, seperate things which are punished on seperate scales. One is guilty until proven innocent and the other requires a ridiculous amount of proof.

**PG2** · 06-08-2013, 11:14 AM

I changed the offence.

The point I am trying to make is an officer of the law does not need to witness any type of an offence to take action.

Kable72 · 06-08-2013, 11:15 AM

A complete blanket ban on private property with actions we cannot legally do on the road but is of no immediate danger of anyone else except the ones partaking in the action? You're comparing apples with oranges here, mate.

The Yeti · 06-08-2013, 11:18 AM

Sounds to me like one of the neighbors isn't happy with the noise / smell etc

I can't see why the local police would be too upset if its 3 paddocks in etc, unless the people leave the property side ways with defective vehicles.

but if one of the neighbors isn't happy with the noise that's where the problems will start

there's one in my area, I don't know where exactly and don't really care as burnouts arn't my thing, I sort of think if they are off the street and arn't using it at stupid oclock when I want to sleep they can go for it.

I haven't heard it for a while but it used to get used mostly Friday nights till around 9 and Saturday / Saturday nights and Sundays, but never in one big thing

I once had one dick come and do a few dounuts at the intersection at the bottom corner of my place shortly after the noise stoped at the pad but I couldnt say for sure if it was one of the same cars,

**PG2** · 06-08-2013, 11:22 AM

All I am referring to is that police do not have to "witness" any type of offence in order to take action - there are other ways to get evidence.

I don't really have an opinion on whether it is right or wrong to have the burnout pad on private property - I don't know all of the facts. It sounds like the OP's mate was trying to do the right thing but it has gone all wrong through no fault of his own.

Kable72 · 06-08-2013, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Yeti

Sounds to me like one of the neighbors isn't happy with the noise / smell etc

I can't see why the local police would be too upset if its 3 paddocks in etc, unless the people leave the property side ways with defective vehicles.

but if one of the neighbors isn't happy with the noise that's where the problems will start

there's one in my area, I don't know where exactly and don't really care as burnouts arn't my thing, I sort of think if they are off the street and arn't using it at stupid oclock when I want to sleep they can go for it.

I haven't heard it for a while but it used to get used mostly Friday nights till around 9 and Saturday / Saturday nights and Sundays, but never in one big thing

I once had one dick come and do a few dounuts at the intersection at the bottom corner of my place shortly after the noise stoped at the pad but I couldnt say for sure if it was one of the same cars,

If it was non stop use day in day out with heaps of people then I can see an issue. If I had my own burnout pad or my own track I know I wouldn't use it everyday. I live in a fairly close residential area with a few houses within 2 blocks that like to party. It isn't every weekend or every night, it's maybe a night or two a week and I don't have an issue with it as they are pretty considerate. Music is often turned off at around 10PM on a weekday and before midnight on a weekend. No one has rung to complain as I've never seen cops drive past to tell em to stfu.

FGII-XR6 · 06-08-2013, 11:28 AM

I think a lot of you are missing the point here. a burnout is a dangerous activity with the potential to kill or maim . therefore an unlicenced burnout pad is equally dangerous. if you want to run a burnout comp on private property no problems get zoning approval, set up the site in accordance with regs, run it as a legally sanctioned motorsport event complete with qualified marshals and scrutineers and have an ambulance in attendance ( like all LEGAL motorsport events do) and go for your life.
owning land does not give you the right to carry on like a bogan risking life and annoying neighbours, you are obliged to comply with all laws including zoning laws.
simple really spend the dollars and time to set it up legally ( no just lay a concrete slab) or don't do it at all