GTHO conundrum

flappist · 16-12-2005, 08:21 PM

There hase been a squillion posts about the possibility of a GT-HO but there are a lot of things to concider:

If the GTHO is made at all it will devalue the GT, GT-P & P1-3 GTHO so the current owners will whinge. (what a new one costs less than a 30 year old one)
If the GTHO is released but called something else e.g. GT-PP then those who want one just for the badge will whinge.

If the GTHO is an absolute animal as per its pedigree it will cause a media frenzy, be uninsurable, pull focus on performance vehicles and give credibility to the "scroobiesque zealots" maybe to the level of the government banning them as was done with guns.

If the GTHO is just a slightly quicker GT and get thrashed on the 400m by a new HSV then there will be screams from all directions of heresy and icon destruction.

If the GTHO is a limited run item then those who miss out will scream.
If the GTHO is a standard run item then others will scream.

If the GTHO is N/A it WILL get its **** handed to it by every F6 it comes across, as well as a lot of SV8s etc.
If the GTHO is SC or TC then the old school will scream heresy.

If the GTHO is a hard line track monster it will sell as well as the HSV Skaife GTS-R (1 unit sold)
If the GTHO is a luxobarge then once again heresy will be the cry.

I sure am glad I am not working for FPV marketing...........

Deadman · 16-12-2005, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

If the GTHO is made at all it will devalue the GT, GT-P

Um, they're holding their value at the moment???

:

[edit] oh, i think i read that wrong. I guess you mean 'devalue' as in 'devalue their position as the FPV V8 to have' kinda thing...

Ah well, GTS didn't hurt the Clubsport to much. So long as it'd be at the $100k mark - I don't think it would hurt the GT & GT-P to badly. I can see GT-HO owners etc perhaps sweating a bit at the idea...

The GT / GT-P resale isn't any good any way - so that's nothing to worry about anyhow

Quote:

If the GTHO is released but called something else e.g. GT-PP then those who want one just for the badge will whinge.

Agreed, people will winge. - I'd probably be one cause I want to see the badge come back... But I understand the other side of the coin to

Quote:

If the GTHO is an absolute animal as per its pedigree it will cause a media frenzy, be uninsurable, pull focus on performance vehicles and give credibility to the "scroobiesque zealots" maybe to the level of the government banning them as was done with guns.

And be a beast at the same time

Quote:

If the GTHO is just a slightly quicker GT and get thrashed on the 400m by a new HSV then there will be screams from all directions of heresy and icon destruction.

I am sure FPV wouldn't build it unless it smashed any HSV available - they know that it would not be acceptable to have the iconic GT-HO get beaten by a HSV. Perhaps why they are taking their time...

Quote:

If the GTHO is a limited run item then those who miss out will scream.
If the GTHO is a standard run item then others will scream.

Perhaps they should guage what the likely sale number would be per year - and still run it as a limited run but with 'enough' supply that they don't only build 50% of demand.

Quote:

If the GTHO is N/A it WILL get its **** handed to it by every F6 it comes across, as well as a lot of SV8s etc.
If the GTHO is SC or TC then the old school will scream heresy.

I got nothing to say - you sumed that up perfectly.

Quote:

If the GTHO is a hard line track monster it will sell as well as the HSV Skaife GTS-R (1 unit sold)
If the GTHO is a luxobarge then once again heresy will be the cry.

Yeah, I think they could mix the two a little bit. Doesn't need much more luxury than a fully speced GT-P - and then perhaps use the extra $ magin to not just upgrade the engine - but look at other areas like weight, handling etc - I mean, if they charge $100k - get a fully speced GT-P, whack on a supercharger, and spend $10k working on weight and handling refinements and they'll still have a bit left over

^^ That will probably get ripped to shreds now by either tech-heads or GT-HO nazi's. But was just using it as an example of one thing they COULD do...

Quote:

I sure am glad I am not working for FPV marketing...........

;) Fun time to be a car enthusiast though isn't it!

**Falcon Coupe** · 16-12-2005, 09:37 PM

The HO is long gone, anything they make now will be a pale imitation not worthy of the name, not to mention it will not be a limited homoglation run for racing, unless it is the fastest mass produced sedan in the world on it's release forget it.

Lukeyson · 16-12-2005, 10:40 PM

local dealer has a theory/reckons is the go, that the HO will be back 06 , something to do with its/or GT's anniversary. But i think he is a very optimistic bloke

Psycho Chicken · 16-12-2005, 11:10 PM

A BF GT-HO would devalue XW/XY HOs?

Get real!

Ghiadude · 16-12-2005, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

unless it is the fastest mass produced sedan in the world on it's release forget it.

the fonz said it best when he said "exactamundo" thats what made the GTHO so special... it was a four door true GT car... just out of interest ... what is the fastest four door in the world at the moment???

JC · 16-12-2005, 11:16 PM

If we do get a FPVBFGTHOV8A6, perhaps they can just rename it to the FPV Alphabet!

**Falcon Coupe** · 16-12-2005, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tx3dude

the fonz said it best when he said "exactamundo" thats what made the GTHO so special... it was a four door true GT car... just out of interest ... what is the fastest four door in the world at the moment???

I dare say one of the forced induction V8 euro's.

FPV · 16-12-2005, 11:35 PM

Flappist has proved the point that never goes away: whatever you do, people will never be happy. FPV are damned if they do a GTHO and damned if they don't. If they don't do a GTHO then they will have no pinnacle in there range, some might argue it is already there in the shape of a 6, but in the eyes of many there is still a spot at the top of the tree that is empty with the name GTHO. If they do a GTHO it won't meet everyones expectations because some people will never be happy.

My opinion is that FPV should produce a GTHO, but don't make it a vehicle that is dusted off the shelf every 5 years or 30, make it a vehicle that has a future of the range and is constantly developed with the rest of the falcon range. They can't possibly make it the fastest sedan in the world cause if they were to do that it would mean stupid amounts of power and a load of money, the fastest is the Brabus E V12.
FPV should simply aim for a grand tourer that delivers in performance and is aimed squarely at the BMW M5 and Mercedes E55, of course without the cost of a euro.

Anyway i've got the feeling the BF version got axed even though i keep hoping it would be released in a BF MK2 guise. It would definately cause a stir if it was released at AIMS 2006, when the VE is also released.

flappist · 16-12-2005, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tx3dude

just out of interest ... what is the fastest four door in the world at the moment???

My typhoon, trust me......

:

Ghiadude · 16-12-2005, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

My typhoon, trust me......

:

lol
:sm_drool: now shuttup and sell it to me for five bucks.... come on...

myxr6 · 17-12-2005, 12:04 AM

Why not use the all allumiinum s/c 427 that unique use in the elenor mustang.

Steffo · 17-12-2005, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tx3dude

what is the fastest four door in the world at the moment???

Mercedes-Benz S65 AMG.

2150kg luxo sedan, 6.0litre SOHC 36v Twin Turbo V12 with 450kW @ 4800-5100rpm and 1000Nm @ 2000-4000rpm. Hits 100km/h in 4.2 seconds, the 1/4 mile in mid to low 11s (11.5-11.3s), restricted to 250km/h, but with the limiter removed can accelerate to an eventual V-Max of 340km/h. All for the low, low price of $435,900. Oh, it it would have closer to 500kW and 1200Nm if Mercedes had a trans and diff able to take what the V12 can dish out, but it runs much restriction software.

I wonder, would a new GT-HO have to be faster then an S65 to get people to like it and not complain?

FPV · 17-12-2005, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffo

Mercedes-Benz S65 AMG.

2150kg luxo sedan, 6.0litre SOHC 36v Twin Turbo V12 with 450kW @ 4800-5100rpm and 1000Nm @ 2000-4000rpm. Hits 100km/h in 4.2 seconds, the 1/4 mile in mid to low 11s (11.5-11.3s), restricted to 250km/h, but with the limiter removed can accelerate to an eventual V-Max of 340km/h. All for the low, low price of $435,900. Oh, it it would have closer to 500kW and 1200Nm if Mercedes had a trans and diff able to take what the V12 can dish out, but it runs much restriction software.

I wonder, would a new GT-HO have to be faster then an S65 to get people to like it and not complain?

Well I'm not sure about the facts Steffo, but the Brabus EV12 has the same engine but tuned up and hits 350kmh without being restricted. It also uses the lighter e class body, so it is probably quicker. The problem with these cars is theres so much torque that wheel spins for a long time. The GTHO does not need to prove it is the fastest sedan, it simply was at the time because Ford were among the few pioneers to make a fast sports sedan. The people who put deposits on it pre-BF know what the GTHO should be like, cause they are the ones buying them.

Steffo · 17-12-2005, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPV

Well I'm not sure about the facts Steffo, but the Brabus EV12 has the same engine but tuned up and hits 350kmh without being restricted. It also uses the lighter e class body, so it is probably quicker.

Brabus is an aftermarket tuned car. My reference was to the fastest factory four door sedan in the world, which is the Mercedes S65.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPV

The GTHO does not need to prove it is the fastest sedan, it simply was at the time because Ford were among the few pioneers to make a fast sports sedan.

Very good point. GT-HO didn't have many rivals, if any, for the crown at the time.

Bossxr8 · 17-12-2005, 12:51 AM

Ford and FPV are in a serious conundrum. How can you bring out a new GTHO that will be as legendary as the originals. I don't even think they would want to do it, as there will be to many people who will say its not good enough even though they will sell out within weeks if they make them in limited numbers.

Steve · 17-12-2005, 02:20 AM

Whilst some people may just want a badge, I think most potential buyers (myself included) don't really care what it's called. It just needs to be the pinnacle of Aussie performance cars; an "iron fist" type of car produced, like the original HO, in limited numbers. Not actually calling it an HO means you have the freedom to supercharge it without upsetting the purists. As for it devaluing the GT/GT-P, I don't think that's true. I think it'll boost the image of the entire range.

Black XR6 · 17-12-2005, 02:57 AM

I think your all forgetting to some extent the impact such a car would have on the public opinion. Ford and Holden (I believe) are being very careful not to go too far and end up with the same situation they had with the phase 4. If they were to make a super GT and call it a GTHO. It would be on for sure in the papers and then in parliment.

CSV_LS1 · 17-12-2005, 03:04 AM

If FPV do make a GT-HO they will have to make sure it has export potential so it can spread the load of the cost involved, eg;550 in Australia, 1200 in the US and 15 in the UK. Then at least they can put more money into it such as aliminium panels and maybe carbon fibre roof

_2: I see the US GT supercharged V8 being the logical engine since it's already developed (would rather a 6 litre NA engine myself). Add some advanced suspension setup that will trikle to the lesser models in the future. Then you will have a GT-HO :sm_headba

**Papa Smurf** · 17-12-2005, 09:48 AM

I heard at work over a year ago that Ford had the idea for a HO on the back burner?

The Media helped to KILL the supercars 30 years ago and I am sure they could find the time to do the SAME thing again?

Having said all that, I think a GTHO would just ADD to the fleet like Steve said.

FPV8U · 17-12-2005, 10:39 AM

Anyone who complains about S/C is an idiot, all the low donw torque you can dream of and the awesome Supercharger whine, the chances of Ford/FPV making a sedan to take out worlds fastest Four door is next to none when the current one is running 11's and personally i doubt very much that the old HO badge will ever be dusted off again for anything but a Concept although i wish it will be re-released to the public one day

Deadman · 17-12-2005, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffo

Mercedes-Benz S65 AMG.

2150kg luxo sedan, 6.0litre SOHC 36v Twin Turbo V12 with 450kW @ 4800-5100rpm and 1000Nm @ 2000-4000rpm. Hits 100km/h in 4.2 seconds, the 1/4 mile in mid to low 11s (11.5-11.3s), restricted to 250km/h, but with the limiter removed can accelerate to an eventual V-Max of 340km/h. All for the low, low price of $435,900. Oh, it it would have closer to 500kW and 1200Nm if Mercedes had a trans and diff able to take what the V12 can dish out, but it runs much restriction software.

I wonder, would a new GT-HO have to be faster then an S65 to get people to like it and not complain?

It's simple then. GTHO = V8 Supercar.

:

parawolf · 17-12-2005, 12:15 PM

I hate to say this, but bury the GT-HO badge in history please. Do not attempt to bring it back.

To make it cost effect for Ford Australia/FPV to develop this, it has to be based around commodity components, and well for big capacity engines it is a 5.4L truck engine (940,000 F-series sold last year alone, almost more than the entire Australian car market). Just look at the Ford GT, based on the same engine, just with exotic components, but plays to the engine's design strong points - torque torque and more torque.

Anyway. I still maintain that they should revive the "Sprint" badge instead of GT-HO.

To gain big performance, that is reliable it has to be S/C'd to maintain the Australian concept of a car that will last 300,000km.

Lets also never forget the GT-HO was fairmont based as it not? So do we do that again?

too many questions to be answered in the near future about target marketing in my opinion yet alone performance figures. However I can't see it producing more power than the Ford GT.

Mondie · 17-12-2005, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psycho Chicken

A BF GT-HO would devalue XW/XY HOs?

Get real!

l agree, if anything it could be good for old HO values as it will raise interest and introduce a whole new generation of fans to the legend. l dont see how a new HO could affect old HO values, its not like one replaces that other as a daily driver.

l wonder what the sweet price point is for such a car these days? The HO used to cost around 20% more than a GT, not much of a premium IMO at the time.

macca_779 · 17-12-2005, 01:15 PM

If Ford do it i hope they really think about what the HO was about. That being the quickest meanest, best handling aussie car on the road. Now in order to do that i believe a lot of the new car trends have to be ditched, mainly for weight. Power is available in the empire via the FORD GT's S/C 5.4 keep the T56 nothing wrong with that, ditch some of the luxury's throw in some composites and an adjustable race spec suspension setup. If they charge $120 000 for it so be it. This car will have to be about re creating an icon and no so much about being profitable.

4Vman · 17-12-2005, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by macca_779

If Ford do it i hope they really think about what the HO was about. That being the quickest meanest, best handling aussie car on the road. Now in order to do that i believe a lot of the new car trends have to be ditched, mainly for weight. Power is available in the empire via the FORD GT's S/C 5.4 keep the T56 nothing wrong with that, ditch some of the luxury's throw in some composites and an adjustable race spec suspension setup. If they charge $120 000 for it so be it. This car will have to be about re creating an icon and no so much about being profitable.

Guys,
the HO was a special option Ford offered to allow their race program to be competitive...
Ford didn't really want to release a HO, it had to release a HO.
The Phase 2 and 3 sold poorly, the company sold them at a loss, they had terrible resale value and were a pig to drive.
When it comes down to it that's what a HO REALLY was.
By virtue of its racing success its become an icon today, more-so for this reason than because it was quick and fast....
We don't need a HO to be competitve in the country's premier race catagory so we dont need a track orientated performance car..
Call it what you like but the HO pedigree is long gone and not necessary today, but its definately not forgotten.
Ford build cars to be profitable, not to be sentimental, end of story,...

Steve · 17-12-2005, 01:33 PM

Ford do a lot of things to be profitable. They got into V8 Supercars, are going rallying, sponsor major events etc. The release of an "Icon" car should also help them in this same way. Holden build concept show cars, let Ford/FPV build a road going supercar.

4Vman · 17-12-2005, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

The HO is long gone, anything they make now will be a pale imitation not worthy of the name, not to mention it will not be a limited homoglation run for racing, unless it is the fastest mass produced sedan in the world on it's release forget it.

Yes, HO = Homologation Option.

That is its built to HOMOLOGATE specific parts to comply with the current Racing class eligibility requirements eg: 250 identical cars with the extra goodies.

If Ford were to build a Falcon to carry the HO name it needs to be a HO by the original definition otherwise its a badged imposter.

Problem is our national premier V8 catagory doesn't require manufacturers to build or homologate such vehicles...

Steffo · 17-12-2005, 01:57 PM

Homologation Option? I thought HO stood for "Handling Option" .....

flappist · 17-12-2005, 01:59 PM

Lots of good points raised:

My opinion on a few......

Recreating an icon rather than profit, good way for the upper management to retire early without bonuses...

Export, I have never heard of a LHD BA or BF so that is half the world gone and the only thing the GT-HO really has going for it is its name which means NOTHING outside Australia/NZ. They were at one time the fastest 4 door car in the world but were not even in the same ballpark and the plethora of 2 door sports cars of the era available around the world. The Austin 7 was a power icon one too.

6 litre NA V8 or for that matter anything except a modular based unit, the cost would blow out beyond all reason. Who is going to pay for all the spare parts that must ne held by law for the entire life of the vehicles. Why do you really think that the current FPVs have the same suspension components, basic engines etc as the standard falcons...... three reasons... cost, cost & cost.

People who hate forced induction are idiots; well that is one opinion, but their money works just as well as anyone elses'. If making money out of idiots was banned where would the tobacco industry be? (IMHO)

Devalueing the XY GTHO; why is a XY GTHO P3 (genuine) worth heaps more than XW GTHO or a XA GT or a XT GT? Could it be because of the BADGE and it still is the quickest GTHO made even though it is slower than a XR6T.
If the P4 had been released, it would be the marque (if there was not a P5) and the P3 would be relegate to a lower position like the XW & P2.
If a new one is made then it will be the quickest one ever and the market for the GTHO will eventually go the way of the model T, enthusiests only. Like the model T all of the GTHOs were bought new to drive, not to collect.
GTHOs got up to 6 digits in early 1987, by 1988 they were $20k for an immaculate 1 owner. The value is speculation and ideology driven and is bouyed by the fact the at the moment the generation that drooled over them as kids now have enough disposable income to waste on "museum pieces".
Now before the zealots arc up, how many GENUINE GTHOs have you seen in car parks at shopping centres or parked on the street? It can't be the price, I seel lots of $200k++ cars all over the place. They are ALL owned by enthusiests who love then dearly. More GTHOs dilute the market.
I used to own over $200,000 worth of machine guns (thanks for the cash in '97 Uncle Johnny). Most were never fired, I just collected them. There was no sense it it, they are all gone now and I wouldn't replace them even if I could. They were just boy's toys and I am over it now.

As I stated earlier (and remember FORD made the GTHO not a predecesser of FPV) FPV are damned if they do and damned if they don't....

I suspect this is why the management get the big bucks, they have to make the hard decissions and have to wear it if they are wrong........