new pursuit laws

[FGII-XR6]

about time we had something like this we just need the rest of the states to follow suit

Originally Posted by ABC

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-10-2...veiled/4331628
The West Australian Government has unveiled new laws aimed at protecting police officers involved in high-speed pursuits.
The laws give legal protection to officers pursuing vehicles by creating a new defence to charges such as dangerous driving causing death if they acted within police guidelines.
Under the legislation, offenders who drive recklessly while being pursued will face a mandatory six-month jail term.
If they cause serious injury or death, they will be jailed for 12 months.
Drivers who evade police, regardless of the outcome, will also be hit with mandatory fines of $5,000 and a two-year licence disqualification.
Police Minister Liza Harvey says the laws send a strong message to the community.

"At the moment less than a quarter of the people charged with dangerous driving causing serious injury or death go to jail," she said.
"That's not acceptable.
"This legislation will ensure that people who engage in that activity while they're fleeing police will go behind bars for a minimum term of 12 months."
The state's police union has welcomed the legislation.
But its president George Tilbury says the union will not rule out banning high-speed pursuits if the changes are not passed by the end of the parliamentary year.
"I expect all politicians to support this bill," he said.
"If they don't, they've clearly lost touch with the community.
"Industrial action is still on the cards and the December 5 deadline is still in place. We want to make sure this legislation passes through parliament this year."
Mrs Harvey says the laws will be given priority.
"There is enough time with the support of the Opposition," she said.
"These can absolutely get through Parliament in the time we have left this session."
The Opposition says it supports increased police protection but wants to examine the driver penalties in more detail.
Labor spokeswoman Michelle Roberts has criticised the amount of time it has taken to introduce the legislation.
"They've had well over four years now, they've been promising that it's a priority just about every week for about the last six months," she said.
There have been a number of fatal crashes in the state following police pursuits.
Last week, a taxi driver and his passenger, a British scientist, were killed after the driver of a stolen four-wheel drive allegedly sped through a red light and rammed into their car.
Police say they had been pursuing the stolen vehicle but had called it off before the crash.
In April, a Perth mother Sharon D'Ercole died after police hit her car in Dianella while chasing a stolen vehicle.

[flappist]

The only caveat I would want included is the the person being chased must be aware they are being chased.

e.g. you are driving at 120 in a 100 zone with the sun behind you. An oncoming unmarked car reads your speed and by the time he buts on his disco is behind you where the sun blots it out.
Due to the long line of traffic behind you he cannot do a U turn for a minute or two by which time you are out of sight and maybe turned off.

He then takes off trying to catch you at 150km/h but can't because obviously you must be going faster than that but so worries he has your rego and nect day instead of a speeding fine you lose your license for 2 years.

Can't happen?

Well actually it did to a friend of mine in NSW some years ago except he was on a motorbike and was stopped at a road block by 6 police with guns drawn.......

[Jim Goose]

Oh of course... great idea to have that defence.
"Im sorry officer I didnt see you or hear you behind me."
"I was right there behind you with the siren going"
"Nope sorry had the stereo up loud"
"And you never once looked in your rear view mirror?"
"Guess not"

Brilliant

Cant wait for the next personal jibe too

[Franco Cozzo]

Mandatory sentencing is the work of the devil, magistrate should always be able to take in circumstance when it comes to handing down a sentence.

I'm not advocating slap on the wrist but mandatory means regardless, when found guilty you're booked in for some annual leave from society.

[FGII-XR6]

the thing is though there is no grey area here, no excuse for running from the cops. you run from the cops you are a lowlife crim and get trated accordingly

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Mandatory sentencing is the work of the devil, magistrate should always be able to take in circumstance when it comes to handing down a sentence.

I'm not advocating slap on the wrist but mandatory means regardless, when found guilty you're booked in for some annual leave from society.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Mandatory sentencing is the work of the devil, magistrate should always be able to take in circumstance when it comes to handing down a sentence.

I'm not advocating slap on the wrist but mandatory means regardless, when found guilty you're booked in for some annual leave from society.

I agree with Damo, if Magistrates did their job properly there would be no need for these draconian laws.

Example: Have a look at the hoon laws as they are being abused by the Police.

Before you know it you will have a Big Brother issues getting out of hand.

[FGII-XR6]

how are they draconian laws unlike the hoon laws which are not the topic here . hoon laws are open the the cops interpretation but getting into a high speed chase and risking death and destruction is black and white.
if you hoose to get into a high speed persuit you deserve to loose your freedom . if you get into a high speed persuit you are a dangerous criminal one misjudgement away from killing someone

Originally Posted by trublu

I agree with Damo, if Magistrates did their job properly there would be no need for these draconian laws.

Example: Have a look at the hoon laws as they are being abused by the Police.

Before you know it you will have a Big Brother issues getting out of hand.

[EDManual]

Originally Posted by flappist

The only caveat I would want included is the the person being chased must be aware they are being chased.

e.g. you are driving at 120 in a 100 zone with the sun behind you. An oncoming unmarked car reads your speed and by the time he buts on his disco is behind you where the sun blots it out.
Due to the long line of traffic behind you he cannot do a U turn for a minute or two by which time you are out of sight and maybe turned off.

He then takes off trying to catch you at 150km/h but can't because obviously you must be going faster than that but so worries he has your rego and nect day instead of a speeding fine you lose your license for 2 years.

Can't happen?

Well actually it did to a friend of mine in NSW some years ago except he was on a motorbike and was stopped at a road block by 6 police with guns drawn.......

Absolutely agree!
A mate of mine was lucky (un) enough to go past a hiding cop (which he also didnt see) in the middle of nowhere at a high speed havin a fun drive. Anyway he finally got caught up with about 10km up the road after lots of corners and without seeing the cop until the straight roads. Yes he lost his licence for a while for speeding but didnt get done for running. Which the cop could argue he did if he felt like it... and that would be wrong. Would you call this evading police if you didnt see them and you continued happily roaring along as you were?

[FGII-XR6]

not really the cop cars have cameras now so the camera would pick up if he ran or not

Originally Posted by EDManual

Absolutely agree!
A mate of mine was lucky (un) enough to go past a hiding cop (which he also didnt see) in the middle of nowhere at a high speed havin a fun drive. Anyway he finally got caught up with about 10km up the road after lots of corners and without seeing the cop until the straight roads. Yes he lost his licence for a while for speeding but didnt get done for running. Which the cop could argue he did if he felt like it... and that would be wrong. Would you call this evading police if you didnt see them and you continued happily roaring along as you were?

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

how are they draconian laws unlike the hoon laws which are not the topic here . hoon laws are open the the cops interpretation but getting into a high speed chase and risking death and destruction is black and white.
if you hoose to get into a high speed persuit you deserve to loose your freedom . if you get into a high speed persuit you are a dangerous criminal one misjudgement away from killing someone

So what is your definition of high speed? 5, 10, 15, 20 & so on...any speed over the limit can kill so are we all criminals?

Let a magistrate decide on the evidence of every individual case is my point.

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Mandatory sentencing is the work of the devil, magistrate should always be able to take in circumstance when it comes to handing down a sentence.

I'm not advocating slap on the wrist but mandatory means regardless, when found guilty you're booked in for some annual leave from society.

If Magistrates were doing their job properly in the first place we wouldn't have to introduce laws forcing them to bin these road scum.

Not sure if you guys over east are up with whats been happening in WA lately, but we have had quite a few innocents killed in pursuits, and car thieving scum not being pursued, killing people.

These laws only apply to if you are doing 45 or more over the limit and are trying to evade Police. If you think the sun was in your rear view mirror or some cop hiding behind a tree took ten kays to catch you (just how fast was your idiot mate going) then tell it to the Magistrate.

Sorry, but I just have no tolerance for these fools on our roads.

[JC]

If cop cars had bazookas, there would be less chases.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by jaydee

If Magistrates were doing their job properly in the first place we wouldn't have to introduce laws forcing them to bin these road scum.

Not sure if you guys over east are up with whats been happening in WA lately, but we have had quite a few innocents killed in pursuits, and car thieving scum not being pursued, killing people.

These laws only apply to if you are doing 45 or more over the limit and are trying to evade Police. If you think the son was in your rear view mirror or some cop hiding behind a tree took ten kays to catch you (just how fast was your idiot mate going) then tell it to the Magistrate.

Sorry, but I just have no tolerance for these fools on our roads.

I fully sympathize in what you & others are saying here and if the magistrates did do their jobs correctly then there should not be any laws like this being made.
I do believe every one has a right to trial regardless what we think, People who murder, rape, bash, robbery & other crimes get the right to a trial.

I honestly believe the judicial system should be accountable for the reasons why are some of these people let off or handed too lenient of a sentence for the crime committed.

BTW in my opinion these people should be locked up longer

[2011G6E]

I love the "readers comments" and the like on Facebook and news sites saying "ban chases and the problem will be solved".

Really?

Another good one is "they can simply check the rego and get the person later"...presumably these same people have no concept of the idea of "a stolen car" not being driven by the registered owner...

Do you honestly want to live in a society where crims know that all they have to do is steal a car and drive quickly, and the police must let them just go free...?

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

I love the "readers comments" and the like on Facebook and news sites saying "ban chases and the problem will be solved".

Really?

Another good one is "they can simply check the rego and get the person later"...presumably these same people have no concept of the idea of "a stolen car" not being driven by the registered owner...

Do you honestly want to live in a society where crims know that all they have to do is steal a car and drive quickly, and the police must let them just go free...?

Todays paper....

A MASSIVE 66 per cent spike in car thefts across the North is being blamed on kids as young as 10.

More than three vehicles are stolen in the region every day, with 1174 cars taken in 2011-12, compared to 705 the year before.

Boys aged 10-14 are the main culprits, according to the Queensland Police Service Annual Statistical Review released yesterday.

Most car thefts were in Townsville, with 1046 vehicles taken across the division. Boys were responsible for 243 thefts and 508 unlawful entries, and girls aged 10-14 were charged with 42 thefts and 87 break-ins.

Again this boils down to QLD Police being told they arent allowed to pursue them... time and time again these little kids would deliberately do burn outs infront of police, in front of police stations etc in order to thumb their nose at police. A few times they have also DELIBERATELY driven head on towards other cars and forced them off the road. All for a laugh.... because Police DONT PURSUE them.

[dieseltrain79]

In the bush , the youngest kids admits blame as they know the police have little power when dealing with minors ....

The laws need reviewing IMO as far as laws for ages go

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

I love the "readers comments" and the like on Facebook and news sites saying "ban chases and the problem will be solved".

Really?

Another good one is "they can simply check the rego and get the person later"...presumably these same people have no concept of the idea of "a stolen car" not being driven by the registered owner...

Do you honestly want to live in a society where crims know that all they have to do is steal a car and drive quickly, and the police must let them just go free...?

A lot of those speeding vehicles are not reported as stolen, they are in fact owner drivers speeding.
Would you be happy with one of your relatives being needlessly entangled in a high speed chase,
possibly injured as a result when the stupid clown could have been caught later at home watching TV?

Stolen vehicles can also be driven sensibly and go undetected, just as DHs in their own cars can drive
with no regard to others. That's the point, there's no right and wrong in this, do police chase criminals and
put others at risk on the road or just follow them with a helicopter and nab them when they think they have escaped?

That's when it takes a sensible decision to either go after them or catch them later.

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by jpd80

A lot of those speeding vehicles are not reported as stolen, they are in fact owner drivers speeding.
Would you be happy with one of your relatives being needlessly entangled in a high speed chase,
possibly injured as a result when the stupid clown could have been caught later at home watching TV?

Not much of an arguement... if they dont stop for police you need to ask the question, why? Caught at home? Really? And how do police prove it was them who drove the car if they dont visually sight the driver in order to identifiy them? The owner can claim.. gee I dont know who was driving my car...

Originally Posted by jpd80

Stolen vehicles can also be driven sensibly and go undetected, just as DHs in their own cars can drive
with no regard to others. That's the point, there's no right and wrong in this, do police chase criminals and
put others at risk on the road or just follow them with a helicopter and nab them when they think they have escaped?

That's when it takes a sensible decision to either go after them or catch them later.

What helicopter? You think all police states have helicopters? all police districts have helicopters do they?
If the car is stolen how do they pick them up later?
Did you read the stats i posted above about the massive increase in stolen vehicles in Townsville? Most of these cars end up being destroyed or burnt out....
Police arent allowed to pursue them.

How do they arrest someone down the track if the car is a burnt out shell and they hove NO IDEA who did it?

If a car fails to stop at an RBT are you saying Police shouldnt chase them?
How do the Police know the drivers reason?
Is he drunk?
Is he high on drugs?
Did he just commit armed robbery?
Is his car full of drugs?
Did he just steal the car?

But its ok, let him go on his merry way....

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

But its ok, let him go on his merry way....

Absolutely correct.
Police should continue doing what they are now in major cities across Australia
and Qld review Townsville as a specific problem with the indignous juvenile element.

If you had bothered to look at my closing statment you would have seen that i said:

That's when it takes a sensible decision to either go after them or catch them later.

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Absolutely correct.
Police should continue doing what they are now in major cities across Australia
and Qld review Townsville as a specific problem with the indignous juvenile element.

If you had bothered to look at my closing statment you would have seen that i said:

And again.. if the car is stolen... and they are not able to identifiy who stole the car and they drive around for hours on end at high speed, dump the car, set it on fire.... how do they catch up with them later?

[Dash_XR]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Mandatory sentencing is the work of the devil, magistrate should always be able to take in circumstance when it comes to handing down a sentence.

I'm not advocating slap on the wrist but mandatory means regardless, when found guilty you're booked in for some annual leave from society.

I tend to agree, there shouldn't be a 'one size fits all' for the legal system.

[grandpa_spec_F6]

Sun in the mirror aside, these new laws are just eroding what clout the police have with the community. "well if they don't got my numba plate I can make a runner and they can't chase me".

There was a bloke that died in my area not long ago, very sad and very young, he was a passenger in his own car.

Police were not pursuing the car yet 800m down the road they find it smashed into a tree.

Would it have made a difference if they were on their tail? Would it have made a difference if the police car hadnt been there at all? My side of the argument is that 'if a loggers is walking through the forest and a tree falls down, is it his fault because he is a logger?'
At some point people need to cut the PC BS and blame those who are directly causing the situation via their actions.

I actually saw police pursuing that stolen council ute here in Brisbane and my god, I've never seen a commodore get more sideways and not stack it, they certainly know how to drive!

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

And again.. if the car is stolen... and they are not able to identifiy who stole the car and they drive around for hours on end at high speed, dump the car, set it on fire.... how do they catch up with them later?

And again, as I said but you didn't quote,
That's when it takes a sensible decision to either go after them or catch them later.

[FGII-XR6]

the speed in excess of the limit is not the point it is lowlifes trying to evade police . if someone refuses to pull over they are instigating a police persuit and therfore should treated as the criminals they are.
It's time these civil libitarians were ignored and criminals treated as the dregs of society that they are

Originally Posted by trublu

So what is your definition of high speed? 5, 10, 15, 20 & so on...any speed over the limit can kill so are we all criminals?

Let a magistrate decide on the evidence of every individual case is my point.

[SS_01]

I think there are too many factors that need to be taken into consideration, as no individual chase is identical. Police are the ones that are trained to make that decision on whether to engage or not. However, i do believe that if they have to exceed a certain speed(i.e 180km/h like in japan), the safest thing to do is back out of it.

As for the kids, regardless of them not being able to chase, the kids are protected because they are not of age, and thats the law that needs to be assessed. If they know its a 10 year old behind the wheel, most likely its a previous offender and they would know exactly who was responsible anyway, its just that they cant do anything about it.

I dont think this is the way forward at all, I think every time they restrict the community in some way by tightening the reigns, the more the community rebels. We need some smarter people to start thinking up solutions that work, assessing each case individually, and then making the decision that is right by the community.

I did see something just recently that is set for trial, which was able to disable a vehicle by shooting something and hitting the said vehicle. This prohibited any chance of a chase, or stop anything that was trying to escape. Better idea than continuous high speed chases imo.

[BHDOGS]

i must be the only person who doesnt give a **** what happens to any criminal in a high speed chase am i the only person who reads the news paper storys about the stolen car crashing and killing the drivers and passengers and doesnt really give a **** because they were in a stolen car they shouldnt of been there or do i have to apologise for that to like everything else in the world you make a decision you live with the consequences the police shouldnt need to call of chases or even explain themselves as far as im concerned these people shouldnt even get free health care my tax dollars pay for after they get injured during crimes. You cant deliberately ignore law and order then expect to be protected by it when it comes time to now ram your stupid thug face with a bull bar. As the saying goes the devils gotta get paid.

[flappist]

You are all missing the point.

Just because a police officer tries to chase a car but does not catch it does not automatically mean that the person driving the car was trying to evade him. It may just mean that the copper was caught in traffic and the driver was not and then the driver turned off while out of sight.

TOO MUCH TELEVISION......

Not all police chases are scenes from the Blues Brothers.......

[mr smith]

The West Australian Government has unveiled new laws aimed at protecting police officers involved in high-speed pursuits.
The laws give legal protection to officers pursuing vehicles by creating a new defence to charges such as dangerous driving causing death if they acted within police guidelines.
Under the legislation, offenders who drive recklessly while being pursued will face a mandatory six-month jail term.
If they cause serious injury or death, they will be jailed for 12 months.
Police Minister Liza Harvey says the laws send a strong message to the community.

No problem with any of that.

Drivers who evade police, regardless of the outcome, will also be hit with mandatory fines of $5,000 and a two-year licence disqualification.

As mentioned this could be taken out of context.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by mr smith

The West Australian Government has unveiled new laws aimed at protecting police officers involved in high-speed pursuits.
The laws give legal protection to officers pursuing vehicles by creating a new defence to charges such as dangerous driving causing death if they acted within police guidelines.
Under the legislation, offenders who drive recklessly while being pursued will face a mandatory six-month jail term.
If they cause serious injury or death, they will be jailed for 12 months.
Police Minister Liza Harvey says the laws send a strong message to the community.

No problem with any of that.

Drivers who evade police, regardless of the outcome, will also be hit with mandatory fines of $5,000 and a two-year licence disqualification.

As mentioned this could be taken out of context.

An I agree with Flappist's rider clause, the person being chased has to be aware that police were chasing them. I'm sure we can
all picture someone on a very spirited bike ride totally oblivious to a pursuit car several hundred metres behind trying to catch them.
There's a big difference between being slapped with dangerous driving and a charge of attempting to evade a police pursuit....

[Road_Warrior]

This has all been driven by that incident a few months ago where an innocent motorist was killed when a Police car contravened a red TCL and t-boned her car, the Police were supposedly pursuing crims in a stolen Audi.

The catch is, the officers in the pursuing car did not have permission from VKI (Command) to engage in a pursuit. It had been asked for, but not granted at that point. The driver of the Police car (a Ford Territory incidentally) has been charged with dangerous driving causing death. It was only after this occurred that the howls of protest started to emerge from the Police union and other quarters about how we need legislation to protect officers from criminal or civil proceedings when in chases.

Personally, I think the idea of the legislation is rubbish, as the Criminal Code covers it anyway (acts in tort) and is not needed. The Police who are engaged in pursuits need to be mindful of the pursuits policy and adhere to it at all times, or face the consequences if it all goes pear shaped because you got a rush of blood to the head. If you don't have permission to engage in a pursuit, you don't pursue, the end. Personally, I think this is more of a training and policy issue than a legislative issue.