A Thread To Come up with IDEAS for P-plate laws

[XCSEDAN]

ok guys and girls, here is what this thread is about:
seeing as P-Plate restrictions seem to keep popping up and fights always start i thought it would be a good IDEA to start BRAINSTORMING some ideas on realistic and fair P-Plate laws/restrictions. PLEASE i do not want crap posted in this thread, or fights starting out as i am SERIOUSLY thinking about sending this off to the government and trying to get this passed via petition.

i am one for all p-plate laws in Australia been the SAME! no more different state, different rules.

so lets start a list, remember ANYONE is free to post in this thread, so try not to be naive, and please DO NOT start fights in this thread.

so lets start a list ey?

1. a power to weight ratio limit such as 100kw/tonne 1st year, 120kw/tonne 2nd year, 140kw/tonne 3rd year, giving P-platers a GRADUATED licensing system and letting them get used to more powerful cars.

2. modification RESTRICTIONS (must have proof of power output after modifications by an authorised performance shop and must be within power to weight limits, unless an official exemption has been priorly made)

3. Tougher repercussions on "hoons" such as, no upgrade in power output for 12months, fine/demerit points etc etc

4. 1 (one) driver training day is COMPULSUARY before getting your P's

5. 0 (zero) tolerance on BAC, must be .000 to drive

6. breatherliser ignition locks fitted to those caught drink driving

feel free to add to the list but keep it fair

[4Vman]

7. No blown big blocks...

[cuz]

3. Tougher repercussions on "hoons" such as, no upgrade in power output for 12months, fine/demerit points etc etc
Forget that cr.ap, just impound repeat offeneders and sell/crush the car

4. 1 (one) driver training day is COMPULSUARY before getting your P's
Maybe one whole weekend?


7. Passenger limits

[sleekism]

I think your list is too harsh especially about modifications. How many people here have 100% legal modifications???

I think it should copy the NSW motorbike system.

1) Must do weekend driver training course before getting L's.
2) L's are valid for 3 months, 150kw tonne, must have supervised driver.
3) Must do driver training weekend before getting P's
4) P's valid for 1 year, 150kw tonne,
5) To graduate to full licence must have done one year without any driving offences.

My 2 cents. Young people learn quick why slug it for years??

[XCSEDAN]

Originally Posted by sleekism

I think your list is too harsh especially about modifications. How many people here have 100% legal modifications???

the only reason for that is due to people breaking the power to weight ratio rule, this keeping it fair and stopping 200kw-tonne cars in the hands of p-platers.
i myself am a p-plater and cannot stand the current rules, however the problem is it usually takes either experience, or an accident to wake most young drivers up, i had the accident, i'd rather others learnt through experience.

RockyF57: i dont agree with rapping society in cotton wool either, but i think certain things are there for a reason. also people could be stupid with a 12hp briggs n stratton if they wanted to.

[bob 351]

i know i am going to some p platers off and it mights save some ones life but there seems to be a lot of younger people losing there lives in faster type 4 and 6 cylinder cars so why not stipulate that they only be able to drive lower powered cars and also passenger curfew after say 8.30 at night just a thought

[Conrad]

Originally Posted by sleekism

I think your list is too harsh especially about modifications. How many people here have 100% legal modifications???

I think it should copy the NSW motorbike system.

1) Must do weekend driver training course before getting L's.
2) L's are valid for 3 months, 150kw tonne, must have supervised driver.
3) Must do driver training weekend before getting P's
4) P's valid for 1 year, 150kw tonne,
5) To graduate to full licence must have done one year without any driving offences.

My 2 cents. Young people learn quick why slug it for years??

You dont need a supervised driver on ur Motorbike Learners or P's. Are you drunk?

[RockyF75]

How about none? And no, I'm not a P plater.

Short of banning any vehicle that can go faster than jogging speed, and weighs more than a human, people will always die, crash and burn on the roads. Younger drivers naturally have a bigger chance of this cause their inexperienced.

But the more laws you bring in the more the 'hoons' will break. It wont stop them from killing themselves, it will just stop young enthusiasts being able to have decent cars.

Think about it? If some one is willing to drive a ridiculous speeds, say 180 in a suburban area, and aren't afraid of getting caught. How will car restrictions or any other kind, make them any more afraid of being caught? It won't, it will only inconvenience the majority of law abiding younger drivers. The rest will just continue to drive their 'illegal' cars and hope to not get caught.

Sorry for the rant but I'm so sick of everyone picking on P platers and trying to wrap society in cotton wool

[Van D]

I still think a few things mentioned here are bandaid fixes.

If the governments were serious about it, they'd spend the extra on taking the initiative with driver training, I think from before you get L's as well.

The L plate test is an absolute joke (I had a question that had a car at a red light, and a car at a green light asking which could go?), and fools many young kids into thinking that driving is a walk in the park. If they're taught from a young age that you need to respect others and the road whilst driving, there'd be less of a hero attitude from the start.

Then there's getting P's.. Once again, absolute joke. I got 100% and thought it was a walk in the park. Drive around a bit sticking to the speed limit and taking your time everywhere so it's virtually impossible to make a mistake, reverse parallel a couple times and that's it.

Driver training is a MUST before getting P's if they want to reduce crashes IMO. And not just on track physical training and how cars handle. Also mental training and some reading etc.

They have to get rid of the mindset that speeding, "hooning" and being a knob is "cool". As some of the older members have said, in their day if you were doing stupid things you were frowned upon by your mates, now you're a hero. What's changed in the years and what's brought on this thinking? Is it media/entertainment? Ie. Movies like fast and the furious? Is it the tight laws, and are they making the youth WANT to break them, because they put so many on us? I think that one is a good possibility. When it comes to P's, we're not talked to on an adult level, which we should be. We always don't know enough or aren't good enough to drive (even though there ARE poor drivers aged over 25) and we're too young to understand anything other than the fact that we cause all the accidents. If we were treated as responsible adults (which most are) then more would act like them.

Forget the impounding at this stage IMO. I've been in a couple bad circles of mates, one of them had his car impounded for 24 hours for driving like an absolute idiot. Did his mates tell him how stupid he was? Nope, he was treated like a hero for doing something 'dangerous'.

IMO, the number 1 priority is changing that mindset, and it starts MUCH younger than when you first get your P's.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Van D

I still think a few things mentioned here are bandaid fixes.

If the governments were serious about it, they'd spend the extra on taking the initiative with driver training, I think from before you get L's as well.

The L plate test is an absolute joke (I had a question that had a car at a red light, and a car at a green light asking which could go?), and fools many young kids into thinking that driving is a walk in the park. If they're taught from a young age that you need to respect others and the road whilst driving, there'd be less of a hero attitude from the start.

Then there's getting P's.. Once again, absolute joke. I got 100% and thought it was a walk in the park. Drive around a bit sticking to the speed limit and taking your time everywhere so it's virtually impossible to make a mistake, reverse parallel a couple times and that's it.

Driver training is a MUST before getting P's if they want to reduce crashes IMO. And not just on track physical training and how cars handle. Also mental training and some reading etc.
IMO, the number 1 priority is changing that mindset, and it starts MUCH younger than when you first get your P's.

This is what i don't get, there are literally hundreds of driver training courses avaliable to people RIGHT NOW!!!
People keep flogging driver training as the fix of all evils, well its avaliable to people NOW!!!

Why should the govt pay for it? Why should people need to be forced to do it?

Take responsibility for your own ability.

I do agree though, attitude is everthing..

no amount of driver training will solve that though....

[Van D]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

This is what i don't get, there are literally hundreds of driver training courses avaliable to people RIGHT NOW!!!
People keep flogging driver training as the fix of all evils, well its avaliable to people NOW!!!

Why should the govt pay for it? Why should people need to be forced to do it?

Take responsibility for your own ability.

I do agree though, attitude is everthing..

no amount of driver training will solve that though....

I have, and have done a course.

Want to know why other P platers don't do it? And this is from the mouths of fellow students I used to go to school with "I'm a good enough driver already, I don't need to do that crap" or "that's for chicks who don't know how to drive. I grew up on a property and have driven around paddocks so I know how to drive" etc.

Seriously though, the government doesn't need to pay for all of it IMO. Just slap another 50-70 bucks on the fee to get a licence or something. I'm sure kids will still go for it, even if their parents fork out the extra money for the training part.

I just honestly think that training will help with the attitude (and as I said, not just the physical driving part), even if it's not with the first generation, but the next few years to follow. Kids in year 12 about to get their license look up to the who drive past the school like idiots when it's 3pm and think it's cool. If the older drivers attitudes are changed, then they don't influence the next. It's got to start somewhere at least.

[cuz]

Originally Posted by Van D

I have, and have done a course.

Want to know why other P platers don't do it? And this is from the mouths of fellow students I used to go to school with "I'm a good enough driver already, I don't need to do that crap" or "that's for chicks who don't know how to drive. I grew up on a property and have driven around paddocks so I know how to drive" etc.

I was the same. But my Dad still insisted that I take lessons on the road and do a advanced course. He even paid for me to drive a car that was equipped with 'outrigger' wheels on hydraulic jacks. Basically, you drive it normally round a racetrack until the instructor (sitting next to you with dual controls) flicks a switch and lifts a wheel, thus, making the car slide unexpectantly. Apart from being the most fun ever, it was a excellent learning curve.

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I truely pity the server the day compulsary driver training ever comes in... the Forums will be choked with threads from learners and P Platers wingeing and crying about the cost and how its "so unfair" and "an invasion of our civil liberties to force us to do it" and "we know better" and "we don't need it"... Bla bla bla....

We had the same reaction to workplace choices and the GST too!!

[DOC]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

This is what i don't get, there are literally hundreds of driver training courses avaliable to people RIGHT NOW!!!
People keep flogging driver training as the fix of all evils, well its avaliable to people NOW!!!
Why should the govt pay for it? Why should people need to be forced to do it?Take responsibility for your own ability.
I do agree though, attitude is everthing..
no amount of driver training will solve that though....

I don't see the Govt should be forced to do it but i do see some sort of subsidy being available to the kids who wish to take these options.

Our kids are lucky we forked out for driver taining etc but for many it can be an expensive thing. So maybe

Sub general driver trianing, and advanced driver training.

This could be a combination of Federal Govt, State Govt, and private business.

In addition i can not see why part of these speeding fines and hoon law fines can not be allocated to this area.

It would also become part of the licence process to go through these courses.

Also across the board, a better reward system for good drivers, by lowering insurance, and or any car related costs, may be better with a carrot rather than these big sticks being waved about.

[cuz]

When I was on the P-plate equivalent, it was offered as a choice. If you completed and passed a advanced driving course (Licenced) then your time on your P's was cut in half.
It cost me $150, (more than a week and a halfs wages!!) but it saved my life.

[XCSEDAN]

Originally Posted by cuz351

When I was on the P-plate equivalent, it was offered as a choice. If you completed and passed a advanced driving course (Licenced) then your time on your P's was cut in half.
It cost me $150, (more than a week and a halfs wages!!) but it saved my life.

NOW THERES AN IDEA!
except maybe not in half, but maybe take 6 months to 1 year off it.

and yeah the mentality needs to change, we all know that, but how do we change it?

[Van D]

Originally Posted by cuz351

When I was on the P-plate equivalent, it was offered as a choice. If you completed and passed a advanced driving course (Licenced) then your time on your P's was cut in half.
It cost me $150, (more than a week and a halfs wages!!) but it saved my life.

And that's a bloody good idea IMO.

[4Vman]

I truely pity the server the day compulsary driver training ever comes in... the Forums will be choked with threads from learners and P Platers wingeing and crying about the cost and how its "so unfair" and "an invasion of our civil liberties to force us to do it" and "we know better" and "we don't need it"... Bla bla bla....

[[dave]]

^^^^^^^^^^ ur complaining that young people will come on here and complain

Hipocrite

[XCSEDAN]

keep it on track guys, PLEASE.

[cuz]

Do they have a program in schools here where students are shown the very graphic aftermath of fatal accidents?? Both pics/video of the scene and of the grieving families?? I remember a program like this a few years ago, but never heard from it since....

[merlin]

Originally Posted by XCSEDAN

1. a power to weight ratio limit such as 100kw/tonne 1st year, 120kw/tonne 2nd year, 140kw/tonne 3rd year, giving P-platers a GRADUATED licensing system and letting them get used to more powerful cars.

I only agree with your point 1. But would add:

2. Youngest age for P's raised to 18.
3. Normal penalties like the rest of us for 15km/h and under but automatic suspension for 15km/h and over.
4. Compulsory comprehensive insurance (regulated).

[T-BOOST]

I seriuosly cant understand why car lisences arn't like motorbike lisences.
You can only get a 250cc on your L's why dont they make it.... You can only drive a 4 cyl on you P's on a car lisence (not modified at that)

[irish2]

Originally Posted by T-BOOST

I seriuosly cant understand why car lisences arn't like motorbike lisences.
You can only get a 250cc on your L's why dont they make it.... You can only drive a 4 cyl on you P's on a car lisence (not modified at that)

When I was on my P's (Only 1 year ago), I owned 2 cars. One car was a daily driver 4 cylinder buzz box and the other a V8 which weighed the same as the 4 cylinder buzz box. Both hit speeds high enough to kill you and or innocent parties instantly just the V8 got there slightly quicker. You can kill yourself and others at 60km/h. Yet a low powered 1.5 litre 4 cylinder will hit about 180 on a faily long piece of road. Limiting the cylinders, or power to weight restrictions will change nothing. People will still test the acceleration and or top speed of almost every car they get and every car will be able to reach a speed that can kill.

[T-BOOST]

Originally Posted by irish2

When I was on my P's (Only 1 year ago), I owned 2 cars. One car was a daily driver 4 cylinder buzz box and the other a V8 which weighed the same as the 4 cylinder buzz box. Both hit speeds high enough to kill you and or innocent parties instantly just the V8 got there slightly quicker. You can kill yourself and others at 60km/h. Yet a low powered 1.5 litre 4 cylinder will hit about 180 on a faily long piece of road. Limiting the cylinders, or power to weight restrictions will change nothing. People will still test the acceleration and or top speed of almost every car they get and every car will be able to reach a speed that can kill.

Yes well a 1000cc doesn't weigh that much more than a 250cc either and both will do the same damage as you have said about your cars.
But you have also stated an obvious reason why this is in place for motor bikes and should be for cars in your post, it's QUICKER, Less reaction time!
Not to mention more torque to loose control in other situations.

[irish2]

Originally Posted by T-BOOST

Yes well a 1000cc doesn't weigh that much more than a 250cc either and both will do the same damage as you have said about your cars.
But you have also stated an obvious reason why this is in place for motor bikes and should be for cars in your post, it's QUICKER, Less reaction time!
Not to mention more torque to loose control in other situations.

It is quicker. The difference in cars however is less than the difference between a 250-1000 on a bike. I also respect the V8 more and never fang it through corners like I do to the buzz box.

[Conrad]

Originally Posted by merlin

I only agree with your point 1. But would add:

2. Youngest age for P's raised to 18.

4. Compulsory comprehensive insurance (regulated).

Umm no. It is already 18 in Victoria and i feel for all the people that need to drive to and from work and those that live in rural areas.

Secondly, why compulsory comprehensive insurance? P platers usually have $400 rust buckets why would that want it insured.

Perhaps Compulsory third party property insurance is better.

[Racecraft]

power to weight is a waste of time and resources imho.. To hard to police and has next to no impact on your ability to drive. I'd be more inclined to enforce stricter safety inspections (RWC) on P platers cars, or cars driven by them.

I'd like to see no passengers between 8:00pm and 6am (family members exempt)

From a simplistic point of view I'll admit. Without someone to distract or gee you up it would have a vast effect on 'hooning', exponentially more than restricting the type of car they drive. Worst case is even if the meatheads continue to drive above the limits (road rules and experience/skill) they would only bring harm upon themselves not a car full off youngsters.

[Hunter]

Driver training will not help those who cannot help themselves. Kids who do stupid things in cars will do them with or without training and if anything, the training will make them think they are a better driver than they really are.

[SB076]

Forget about power to weight ratio and no of passengers. Why doesnt the government simple teach them how to drive and ensure that they do mandatory driving courses before they can get there license. They also need to improve the testing method rather than just drive at 45 ks through certain roads the testing should be more rigorous and involve all aspects of vehicle control

Problem at the moment is that you have parents who cant drive teaching kids to drive, then when they can safely handle a car at 45 ks they get a license and then we wonder why they crash @ 100k's on a country road

Yes you will have some idiots that do something stupid, obviously all road laws need to be enforced and if someone is doing something stupid they lose there car plus the license.

[sleekism]

All you people pushing for vehicle restrictions are forgetting that this will be a death sentence to Ford.

When I got my P's the school car park was full of V8's probably 30% V8's and 80% Falcons and Commodores overall and these people have continued to buy Falcons and Commodores.

Looking at the school carpark the other day the vast majority were Lancers, Hyundais and Pulsars equipped with fart cannons and wings. I saw one VL and no Falcons.

Thanks to the new p plate vehicle restrictions the next generations idea of performance will be Toyota Camry Sportivo.