Road rule loop-holes

jamesson1980 · 15-11-2010, 03:49 PM

I'm aware this thread may be removed as I've discussed police/insurance in here but I'l give it a go because I'm really saddened by something that happened on the weekend that has given me the feeling the law can't be trusted to protect the innocent. It seems that every road incident is a 50/50 gamble on whether or not the police work will be done right.

Saturday night (nov. 13) my sister was coming out of a T-intersection thru a green light in a string of other cars. A girl came flying thru the red, hitting my sister's car in the drivers door, destroying both cars and giving both drivers severe bruising. Of all the people who were standing around after seeing the incident, the police didn't approach one, therefore, no witness statement, therefore "the colour of the lights at the time is unknown so they are not a factor in this case..". So now the default yield rule applies under which my sister needed to give way to her right and as she did not, due to the green light, she's at fault. The other uninsured motorist gets paid out, and my sister with only her third party bomb insurance gets nothing but an excess bill.

So not only has the random drunken fist of justice punched her in the face, her insurance have left her for dead too.

I'm fuming over this, and so are all family and friends. I thought I'd put it out here for other frequent road users to read and input any experiences they may have had where laziness, incompetence, and lack of commonsense have led to a crash victim paying the price.

NAK302 · 15-11-2010, 04:10 PM

typical........
i figured long ago Police are only human, which is why i disrespect them the way i do. i cannot ever remember anything good when dealing with them. period.

i feel for you and your sister matey, perhaps there may be a witnes from that night that you may be able to locate. put an ad in the paper asking if folks will come forward to help you out.

mick10010 · 05-12-2010, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GT-0733

typical........
i figured long ago Police are only human, which is why i disrespect them the way i do. i cannot ever remember anything good when dealing with them. period.

Reading that made me want to jump of a tall building. What a twat

jamesson1980 · 15-11-2010, 04:23 PM

Thanks man. Not sure if a witness at this late hour would help but why not try ay. Might put up a sign at the intersection. Also, anyone in here from the Cranbourne/Karingal/Carrum Downs area in Melbourne who may have been at Ballarto Rd/McLelland Dve about 6-6:20 Saturday evening let me know. I realise it's a 100-1 shot but
I did actually see a fellow forum user EBW-302 cruise thru the scene in his unmistakably low wagon about half hour after the incident so who knows, there may be others.

NAK302 · 15-11-2010, 04:30 PM

good luck with it. i hope it pans out for you both.

99AUXR · 15-11-2010, 04:31 PM

sucks mate, best of luck to you getting the justice you and your sis deserve

kinksta · 15-11-2010, 04:33 PM

Yea it is unfair at times. My first problem with the law in 8 years since having my license, I did a U-turn over double lines which were poorly maintained and not visible at night time. I took photos showing it, heaps of photos, and when you look at them you cannot see any lines, yet my case was thrown out. Even though I had proof. Also got slugged double demerits, so I am never going back to Pt Macquarie haha...

Velociraptor82 · 15-11-2010, 04:45 PM

We had a simialr experience only involving insurance where we were sitting in the Meteor waiting to back out of a park spot when a bomb of a datsun stationwagon come around the corner and hit our stationary car. (we know the driver and passenger swapped seats probably cos the driver wasn't old enough to be licenced but we didn't say anything about that) When we made our claim to insurance we found that the datsun had claimed that we were at fault for reversing into them. Becasue the insurance couldn't decide between truth and fiction, both parites had to pay for their own damage which was pretty unfair for us.

I hope everything goes well for you jamesson1980.

rancidpunx · 15-11-2010, 05:30 PM

I have often though about what I would do in the event of an accident. This just confirms it for me. Stuff the other party to start with, ask the closest person to be a witness straight away.

pottery beige · 15-11-2010, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rancidpunx

I have often though about what I would do in the event of an accident. This just confirms it for me. Stuff the other party to start with, ask the closest person to be a witness straight away.

this is where its at........ independant witness makes a big difference....

Jim Goose · 15-11-2010, 05:53 PM

I dont understand how your saying that in an intersection controlled by traffic lights, if it isnt known what colour they were the "give way to the right applies" ??

For a start its an intersecton controlled by traffic lights, it needs to be established what the colour was in order to see who is at fault.(I would be going back to Police)

If the lights were not working or flashing yellow, then the T intersection rules apply.
There is NO such thing as give way to the right at a T intersection (unless it is signed)
Through traffic have right of way.

Ben73 · 15-11-2010, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

I dont understand how your saying that in an intersection controlled by traffic lights, if it isnt known what colour they were the "give way to the right applies" ??

For a start its an intersecton controlled by traffic lights, it needs to be established what the colour was in order to see who is at fault.(I would be going back to Police)

If the lights were not working or flashing yellow, then the T intersection rules apply.
There is NO such thing as give way to the right at a T intersection (unless it is signed)
Through traffic have right of way.

I believe this is true. Never heard of give way to right at intersections.

2002au · 15-11-2010, 06:13 PM

hope it all works out mate, and that your sister's ok.

Yaw · 15-11-2010, 06:19 PM

I want more info, who is taking the lights out of the equation? The police or the insurer ?

Yellow_Festiva · 15-11-2010, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yaw

I want more info, who is taking the lights out of the equation? The police or the insurer ?

Exactly... to the OP. DO NOT allow yourself or your sister roll over and take it. If your story is as you say, fight it with all you can.

There is the insurance ombudsman, the police ombudsman, your local member and talkback radio / television or your own legal avenues.

If it happened to me as it happened to you I would not rest till the fair and correct justice is served.

Good luck.

Mr Brooksy · 15-11-2010, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

Exactly... to the OP. DO NOT allow yourself or your sister roll over and take it. If your story is as you say, fight it with all you can.

There is the insurance ombudsman, the police ombudsman, your local member and talkback radio / television or your own legal avenues.

If it happened to me as it happened to you I would not rest till the fair and correct justice is served.

Good luck.

Agreed! Do whatever you can. It's a huge inconvenience but at the end of the day it's the 'right' thing to do.

jamesson1980 · 16-11-2010, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yaw

I want more info, who is taking the lights out of the equation? The police or the insurer ?

YAW, it's the insurance company discounting the traffic lights. The attending officer will not make a ruling one way or the other unless there was at least one witness who saw what colour the lights were at the time of impact. He says he is powerless to do so. And as it was wet plus there was no observations or records made by the police at the time, there will be no other way of getting him to see what actually happened. So as it stands now, the police have called it NO OUTCOME.

It's the insurance company that have told my mum (who is dealing with it on my sister's behalf) that if we make a claim, the insurer will need to obtain the police report which will state NO OUTCOME, therefore they must use the give way to thru traffic rule and as my sister was on the side road not the main road, she failed to do so.. long story short.. if we claim, all we succeed in doing is paying an excess to fix the other girl's car.

Jim Goose · 16-11-2010, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesson1980

It's the insurance company that have told my mum (who is dealing with it on my sister's behalf) that if we make a claim, the insurer will need to obtain the police report which will state NO OUTCOME, therefore they must use the give way to thru traffic rule and as my sister was on the side road not the main road, she failed to do so.. long story short.. if we claim, all we succeed in doing is paying an excess to fix the other girl's car.

If there is no dispute that the lights were working as you say the other driver says they had a yellow etc.... then the insurance company is full of it.
The traffic lights were in operation. If it cant be decided what colour they were too bad. The insurance company is not allowed to make up road rules to suit the claim, which is what it is doing.
If the lights were not working ONLY then do the road rules revert to the T-intersection rules....

You shouldve clarified your orginal statement as it infers you were having a go at the Police when your drama is the insurance company.

This isnt a loophole in road rules....

Yaw · 16-11-2010, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

If there is no dispute that the lights were working as you say the other driver says they had a yellow etc.... then the insurance company is full of it.

If you are to take the other persons version it would mean that "our" driver had a red light.

That is where the dispute lies.

jamesson1980

In case you are not aware. I work for an insurance company in recoveries and settlements. I am happy to help guide you through how to deal with this if you want. PM the insurer and the exact type of policy and dates the policy runs for. (I am asking for this information so I can look up the appropriate PDS to know what that companies procedures and polices are.)

PM me if you want to take up the offer of help.

Yaw · 15-11-2010, 07:13 PM

In an insurance enviorment, it is something that is sometimes done. However this does not make it law. Police certainly can not do it. It cannot simply be ignored unless both parties agree to it. If there is no witness and both stating they had a green light it is conflicting versions. neither can be proven. Keep in mind this is civil law, not criminal law. It works on the balance of probabilities. Which is esentially one story has to out weigh the other. even if one is only 51% more likely than the other. I am happy to help you or give my opinion if you want to PM me.

jamesson1980 · 16-11-2010, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yaw

...If there is no witness and both stating they had a green light it is conflicting versions. neither can be proven...

My sister is claiming she had the green light, the other party is claiming she was braking for the amber but slid thru the intersection (sounds partially like an admission of fault). Although she wouldn't have an amber if my sister had green.. the whole thing goes red for several seconds before there's any green. Also as another member said above, we're arguing that on a dual lane both ways road with an 80km/h limit, if my sister was dumb enough to break thru a red light, she's be cleaned up by many cars, not just one. Anyway, thanks for all the feedback and glad to know we're not the only ones to have hit legal hurdles like this. I will keep this thread updated.

fmc351 · 16-11-2010, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesson1980

My sister is claiming she had the green light, the other party is claiming she was braking for the amber but slid thru the intersection (sounds partially like an admission of fault). Although she wouldn't have an amber if my sister had green.. the whole thing goes red for several seconds before there's any green. Also as another member said above, we're arguing that on a dual lane both ways road with an 80km/h limit, if my sister was dumb enough to break thru a red light, she's be cleaned up by many cars, not just one. Anyway, thanks for all the feedback and glad to know we're not the only ones to have hit legal hurdles like this. I will keep this thread updated.

Seek a solicitor. The other driver has made admission they didnt have a green light, if thats in writing, it wont be hard to get a solicitor to sort it.

On balance of probabilities, your sister is telling the truth based on that statement.

Iggypoppin' · 15-11-2010, 07:14 PM

I agree, the police can't give up the case because no one came forward as a witness. Surely the fact a whole other heap of cars moved through the T at the same time is evident? And surely they where not so quick to dismiss this? Not police bashing either by the way, just pointing out facts.

GS608 · 15-11-2010, 07:50 PM

IF you're really stuck maybe visit a few local shops (do any have a clear view of the intersection?) Ask them if they can check their CCTV or even if they saw the accident..never know you may get lucky, any traffic cameras in the area?

**Jastel** · 15-11-2010, 09:01 PM

It sucks but thats what happens sometimes, thats why you need comprehensive insurance to be sure.

You get hit by a drunk/unlicensed/uninsured driver therefore no insurance and you (or your insurance) have to sue them yourself, they have no money (or any intention to pay) and you (or your insurance) foot the whole bill. Most of the time insurance companies find it easier and cheaper to cut their losses. Of course insurance companies can just raise premiums next year as they do.

FgNewbie · 15-11-2010, 08:16 PM

Agreed, I'd definitely advertise in the local rag for any witnesses.

If you are member of RACV, I believe they have free legal advice.

I haven't seen a Victorian acco report but I'd be asking the attending officer for a copy of the accident report.
Alternatively you can formally request one (fees apply).
http://www.police.vic.gov.au/content...ocument_ID=683

If you are extremely lucky and ask around, the accident may be recorded on a CCTV / security camera system.

Wishing everyone a speedy recovery and as other have said, don't roll over.

edit: I should of refreshed before posting. XR-Chief had the same thought while I was looking at Google maps and other crap.

mik · 15-11-2010, 08:24 PM

i can`t see a camera on google map/sattelite, but the pic may be old.
it shows a decent pic at : Ballarto Rd cnr MCcLelland Drive

FgNewbie · 15-11-2010, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mik

i can`t see a camera on google map/sattelite, but the pic may be old.
it shows a decent pic at : Ballarto Rd cnr MCcLelland Drive

on google street view I saw a couple of commercial looking places... long shot but hopeful.

edit: I'd even ask at the houses if they saw anything or maybe they are nuts like me and have domestic CCTV.

**Mechan1k** · 15-11-2010, 09:19 PM

This is one reason why I really should be putting a camera in the ute to record everything when i drive .... just so I have proof IF something happens.

Yaw · 15-11-2010, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mechan1k

This is one reason why I really should be putting a camera in the ute to record everything when i drive .... just so I have proof IF something happens.

Funny you should say that. I dealt with a claim the other day where the third party was a bus. If it was not for how great the video footage was from the bus. It had one camera on the driver, one on the road ahead and several through out the bus. Each camera was so clear. If it was not for the camera I would have based on the written version from both drivers I would have passed the file to legals. It can make a difference.