Random Police checks "not lawful"

[flappist]

Originally Posted by ABC News

Melbourne court rules random police checks 'not lawful'
By court reporter, Sarah Farnsworth
Updated Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:45pm AEST

Court ruling casts doubt on police powers to randomly stop motorists
PHOTO: A Melbourne Magistrate has ruled the Road Safety Act does not give police the unfettered power to stop motorists without suspicion. (AAP: Joe Castro)
MAP: Ascot Vale 3032
A court ruling has cast doubt on police powers to randomly pull over motorists.

Two African men were stopped by police in Ascot Vale last year.

One man was charged with assault when the situation escalated

A magistrate has now ruled the Road Safety Act does not give police the unfettered power to stop motorists without suspicion.

Magistrate Duncan Reynolds ruled "there is no common law power vested in police giving them the unfettered right to stop or detain a person and seek identification details.

"Nor, is s.59 of the (Road Safety) Act a statutory source of such power."

The lawyer representing one of the men, who is fighting assault allegations, Tamar Hopkins, says the decision will have ramifications.

"At present, we understand they're (police) told to go out and stop as many cars as they can," she said.

"This ruling says you can't do that. You must stop cars when there is in fact a reason.

"Random stops are in fact not lawful."

She says it is an important ruling.

"One of the problems with arbitrary stops is that they can be used by police to stop people on the basis of discriminatory grounds rather than after they have formed a reasonable basis to believe that the driver may have committed an offence," she said.

"Many people from African backgrounds, for example, have reported that they have been subject to routine intercepts by police where there is no underlying basis for the stop."

Stops for the purpose of random breath testing are not impacted by the court ruling.

"There is a specific statutory power for police to conduct stops for this purpose," Ms Hopkins said.

Victoria Police are considering their options, including whether to appeal against the ruling at the Supreme Court.

Oops.......

[Silver Ghia]

Further confirms my thoughts that lawyers write the law, then work for their own self interests and profession when applying those laws, not for the benefit of the community as a whole.

I was brought up to always respect the police, never assault them under any circumstances. This just undermines their authority.

[prydey]

i wonder if this would include RBT's? motorists are just randomly flagged in. if the police need to have a reason to pull you over, surely it includes this practice.

Victoria Police are considering their options

so now when they pull you over, the first sentence they utter will be something that will cover the required pre requisite to pull you over.

mind you, with the amount of automation going on these days, the cops don't even need to pull you over any more. we have gantry's being erected in numerous places here in adelaide (so i assume every other state has had them for years) that will hold camera's with the technology to read your licence plate and automatically send you a fine if its expired. i'm assuming there is all other sorts of things they can look into once they have a few details.

i don't actually think it will be much of an issue for the police though. if you look around you will notice that most motorists will give police any number of reasons to pull them over.

[jimmyxr6t04]

I'm sure the police will find a way around it though. Example; surely it's within the law to pull a car over for the purpose of a random breath test. From there, the police would be within their right to conduct a licence check to ensure the driver does in fact hold a licence. The police can simply ask to see their licence, if the person declines, it may raise the suspicion of the police, and they could then go from there...

From that info, the police will have what they want from the car. If there is anything untoward with the individual, the police will then have powers to arrest...

Very simplified version of events, but i'm guessing it's how it will go...

[castellan]

We lost all them right's in QLD from about 1988 on as you had to do somthing wrong to be puled up.
How could one make any claim to anything, as a cop could say any reason regardless nowdays. like you did not have both hands on the wheel or something in your hand mob ph. you looked like a wanted person.

[2011G6E]

Some people might think this is minor and a case of "if you're not breaking the law you have nothing to worry about"...but the entire meaning is that unless you have firm unbreakable guidelines for behavior and what is and what is not legal, there will always be bad eggs in the force that will exploit that point.

Talk to any copper...we have one in our family...and they all know of cops who go a little too far. That wouldn't be a real problem, except that the person doing it has the might of the legal system behind them and they have a badge and a gun to enforce it.

[Cabbage]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

Further confirms my thoughts that lawyers write the law, then work for their own self interests and profession when applying those laws, not for the benefit of the community as a whole.

I was brought up to always respect the police, never assault them under any circumstances. This just undermines their authority.

Never a truer word spoken!

[zipping]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

Further confirms my thoughts that lawyers write the law, then work for their own self interests and profession when applying those laws, not for the benefit of the community as a whole.

I was brought up to always respect the police, never assault them under any circumstances. This just undermines their authority.

Actually this isn't lawyers writing the law. Its our apathy that has allowed the officers to pull us over for no reason. The right to go about your business free from harassment from authorities is a founding block of western democracy.

If you look at the American bill of rights one of the enshrined laws is a person has the right to lawfully go about his business without being harassed by authorities. They need a reason to stop you going about your business.

[MITCHAY]

It says RBT is not affected by the ruling in the article.

[FGII-XR6]

from reading the ruling RBT is also illegal in Victoria.

A magistrate has now ruled the Road Safety Act does not give police the unfettered power to stop motorists without suspicion.

this is not a good thing RBT gets drunken idiots off the road. I'm sure they will pass laws to fix this. although stationary RBT will be a problem, mobile RBT will be fine, "I pulled you over because you swerved back there please blow into this device" I'm sure a diligent cop can find a reason to pull you over

[jimmyxr6t04]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

from reading the ruling RBT is also illegal in Victoria.

this is not a good thing RBT gets drunken idiots off the road. I'm sure they will pass laws to fix this. although stationary RBT will be a problem, mobile RBT will be fine, "I pulled you over because you swerved back there please blow into this device" I'm sure a diligent cop can find a reason to pull you over

The article says that this ruling has no impact on RBT laws.

[Moby Vic]

For a different perspective on Victoria police look up Malcolm Rosenes or read Andrew Fraser's Snouts in the Trough.

[flappist]

There are some interesting comments here.

A Magistrate finds it illegal.
Thats ok, Police will find a way around it.

WHAT??

The sworn duty of a Police Officer in Australia is to uphold the law NOT manipulate the law to suit themselves.

[pottery beige]

theyre not called random anymore.. they is called routine.......

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/s...38#mm-breached

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/s...-1226658277501

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/m...-1226365362213

nothing random at all.....

[2011G6E]

AH, there you go...change somethings name, and you take the sting out of it. "A routine traffic stop"...

But really, there would have been nothing "routine" about that stop in the news item...they knew who he was.
I mean, when was the last time you got pulled over for a "random stop" and licence check, and the coppers said "Oh, and while we're at it, just let us pull the hoodlining out of your car to check for drugs..."

[pottery beige]

much lols @ african dudes pulling the dis enfranchised you is picking on me bs with the po po.....

you will and forever will be from now on.....

[nz13boy]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

much lols @ african dudes pulling the dis enfranchised you is picking on me bs with the po po.....

you will and forever will be from now on.....

What makes you so sure its Bs??? Just a little bit presumptuous dont you think? Your comment sounds like a typical bigoted statement to me.

As a black guy who has owned many a Late model nice car, owns a nice "Glorified Ford" and currently has a very expensive "Datsun", I have found myself on the side of the road numerous times after having been stopped "randomly" by the Police. Ive been stopped in my sons school car-park, McDonalds Drive through, approached by a officer on foot while sitting at traffic lights and told to pull over when the lights go green, followed into payed parking carparks etc.

The reasons (excuses) Ive been given by the officer plods have varied greatly from the usual "just a random stop sir" to the absurd "we have had complaints about a Nissan GTR similar to yours doing doughnuts/burnouts at the park".........lol. One officer told me he pulled me over because someone in a blue fpv was involved in a hit and run. After checking my drivers license he went to walk back to his patrol car without looking at the front or underside of my car for damage (human limbs). I got outa my car and just went off at him for bullshitting about why he pulled me over. He just said sorry, my mistake, wound up his window and drove off.

Ive had two separate officers search my car even after I have said NO to their requests for a vehicle search.

Getting pulled over once every few years or so I would consider to be the norm.

Getting pulled over 15+ times in the 15years Ive lived here in Oz is, in my opinion, bigoted profiling........

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by nz13boy

What makes you so sure its Bs??? Just a little bit presumptuous dont you think? Your comment sounds like a typical bigoted statement to me.

As a black guy who has owned many a Late model nice car, owns a nice "Glorified Ford" and currently has a very expensive "Datsun", I have found myself on the side of the road numerous times after having been stopped "randomly" by the Police. Ive been stopped in my sons school car-park, McDonalds Drive through, approached by a officer on foot while sitting at traffic lights and told to pull over when the lights go green, followed into payed parking carparks etc.

The reasons (excuses) Ive been given by the officer plods have varied greatly from the usual "just a random stop sir" to the absurd "we have had complaints about a Nissan GTR similar to yours doing doughnuts/burnouts at the park".........lol. One officer told me he pulled me over because someone in a blue fpv was involved in a hit and run. After checking my drivers license he went to walk back to his patrol car without looking at the front or underside of my car for damage (human limbs). I got outa my car and just went off at him for bullshitting about why he pulled me over. He just said sorry, my mistake, wound up his window and drove off.

Ive had two separate officers search my car even after I have said NO to their requests for a vehicle search.

Getting pulled over once every few years or so I would consider to be the norm.

Getting pulled over 15+ times in the 15years Ive lived here in Oz is, in my opinion, bigoted profiling........

i've been pulled over 30+ times in the last 15 years...

three times in the last three weeks..

car searched several times, no big deal i tell them go for it...

no form, no attitude

deal with it

[zipping]

Originally Posted by nz13boy

What makes you so sure its Bs??? Just a little bit presumptuous dont you think? Your comment sounds like a typical bigoted statement to me.

As a black guy who has owned many a Late model nice car, owns a nice "Glorified Ford" and currently has a very expensive "Datsun", I have found myself on the side of the road numerous times after having been stopped "randomly" by the Police. Ive been stopped in my sons school car-park, McDonalds Drive through, approached by a officer on foot while sitting at traffic lights and told to pull over when the lights go green, followed into payed parking carparks etc.

The reasons (excuses) Ive been given by the officer plods have varied greatly from the usual "just a random stop sir" to the absurd "we have had complaints about a Nissan GTR similar to yours doing doughnuts/burnouts at the park".........lol. One officer told me he pulled me over because someone in a blue fpv was involved in a hit and run. After checking my drivers license he went to walk back to his patrol car without looking at the front or underside of my car for damage (human limbs). I got outa my car and just went off at him for bullshitting about why he pulled me over. He just said sorry, my mistake, wound up his window and drove off.

Ive had two separate officers search my car even after I have said NO to their requests for a vehicle search.

Getting pulled over once every few years or so I would consider to be the norm.

Getting pulled over 15+ times in the 15years Ive lived here in Oz is, in my opinion, bigoted profiling........

Sorry to hear it man.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by flappist

There are some interesting comments here.

A Magistrate finds it illegal.
Thats ok, Police will find a way around it.

WHAT??

The sworn duty of a Police Officer in Australia is to uphold the law NOT manipulate the law to suit themselves.

Its magistrates and lawyers that causing so much wrong in the world.


Police pull some people over, they get agitated and assault the police officers. Now a crafty lawyer and a easy won over magistrate find these people were "pulled over un lawfully", the ones that actually committed a real crime get away with it and the job of a police officer gets harder.

[FGII-XR6]

in theory yes but in reality they will find a way to continue while " remaining inside the law" . that's not saying this is right or wrong just looking at it realistically.
I previously missed the last bit that states RBT is legal, so all they have to do is pull them over for an RBT, at this time a licence check is legal. So no more pulling over for a licence check, just pull over for RBT problem solved without breaking the law

Originally Posted by flappist

Thats ok, Police will find a way around it.

WHAT??

The sworn duty of a Police Officer in Australia is to uphold the law NOT manipulate the law to suit themselves.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

So no more pulling over for a licence check, just pull over for RBT problem solved without breaking the law

I usually drive to work between 1:00am and 3:00am and frequently get stopped for an 'RBT'. Never a problem.

Originally Posted by STINKY NINJA

If youve got nothing to hide and dont assault police then you will go free

I think Terry Pratchett summed it up nicely with....

"The axiom 'an honest man has nothing to fear from the police' is currently under review by the Axioms Review Board"

[prydey]

Originally Posted by flappist

There are some interesting comments here.

A Magistrate finds it illegal.
Thats ok, Police will find a way around it.

WHAT??

The sworn duty of a Police Officer in Australia is to uphold the law NOT manipulate the law to suit themselves.

really?

a magistrate said the police need to suspect something before pulling the car over.

police will now 'suspect something' before pulling you over.

its pretty clear. if you think the police will just stop routine traffic checks based on this result, then you are rather naive for thinking so.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by flappist

Thats ok, Police will find a way around it.

That's Police hierarchy code for "we'll get the Police Minister to introduce a legislative amendment to Parliament so we can legally do what the court said we couldn't"

Just you wait and see...

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by flappist

There are some interesting comments here.

A Magistrate finds it illegal.
Thats ok, Police will find a way around it.

WHAT??

The sworn duty of a Police Officer in Australia is to uphold the law NOT manipulate the law to suit themselves.

The magistrate was ruling on evidence before him but could that opinion be overturned on appeal?

I'm thinking that a full review may expose errors in law but probably killing a forrest with the paperwork attached.

I can't see the police, safety groups or the government allowing random police roadside checks to be made illegal.

[KIWI-1]

The DPP is considering appealing.

The case was nothing to do with driving, it was about racial profiling.

"In this case, Magnus Kaba (the accused) was a passenger in a motor vehicle stopped by police in a “routine intercept”. Both Magnas and the driver of this vehicle were young African males. There seemed to be no apparent reason to conduct a “routine intercept” on this vehicle."
...
The case has significant implications in all situations where the police arbitrarily stop a person and is relevant to the current Victoria Police Public Inquiry into field contacts."

http://www.communitylaw.org.au/flemingtonkensington/cb_pages/NewsEvents.php

[FGII-XR6]

when I was last in Victoria I was pulled over for a random licence check but that was fine after all I am not african, does this mean they won't be able to check Africans because it is racial profiling but they can check Caucasians?

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

The DPP is considering appealing.

The case was nothing to do with driving, it was about racial profiling.

"In this case, Magnus Kaba (the accused) was a passenger in a motor vehicle stopped by police in a “routine intercept”. Both Magnas and the driver of this vehicle were young African males. There seemed to be no apparent reason to conduct a “routine intercept” on this vehicle."
...
The case has significant implications in all situations where the police arbitrarily stop a person and is relevant to the current Victoria Police Public Inquiry into field contacts."

http://www.communitylaw.org.au/flemingtonkensington/cb_pages/NewsEvents.php

[KIWI-1]

Therein lies the reason for the court case.
"I was last in Victoria I was pulled over for a random licence check"
Were your passengers submitted to a licence check?

[UberKnee]

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

The DPP is considering appealing.

The case was nothing to do with driving, it was about racial profiling.

"In this case, Magnus Kaba (the accused) was a passenger in a motor vehicle stopped by police in a “routine intercept”. Both Magnas and the driver of this vehicle were young African males. There seemed to be no apparent reason to conduct a “routine intercept” on this vehicle."
...
The case has significant implications in all situations where the police arbitrarily stop a person and is relevant to the current Victoria Police Public Inquiry into field contacts."

http://www.communitylaw.org.au/flemingtonkensington/cb_pages/NewsEvents.php

I'm a white male and I've been pulled over for RBTs/routine intercepts. Is that profiling as well like the DPP is carrying on about or just the polic doing their jobs and randomly pulling cars over.

[Yellow_Festiva]

"without suspicion" can mean a plethora of things..

* If a car roughly matches one wanted
* If the driver perhaps makes eye contact then turns away quickly
* If a driver keeps their eyes glued to the speedo and slightly swerves

All of these can cause 'suspicion'.. couldn't they??

Hell... I got pulled over at 18 in my brown Datto at the local shopping centre with 2 very anglo looking mates. We were detained for 1hr, searched, separated and questioned. After 30 min 2 more police cars turned up at speed, sirens blazing to box us in further, in case the 3 cars already parked around us wasn't sufficient...

I overheard the radio.. they were looking for a stolen cream Sigma with 5 'Middle Eastern males' in it out on a spate of bag snatches.

I guess they 'suspected' it was us.... Was obvious after 5 minutes they had stuffed up..

We were released after 1hr, not even an apology. I got a very stern talking to though, I could have got a fine for my spare tyre not being correctly secured or some BS like that.....

While I fully respect the Law, this incident left me scratching my head for some time....