European cars

[blueline]

Heya forumites,
I am just wondering your thoughts on European cars, in general. I am working on an article for my blog (when I get it started) and am wondering what people's views are.

Just off the top of your head, hit the 'quick reply' and let me know how you feel.

thanks for your time,

Ian

[Djrystofer]

I've got two european cars in my garage, a bmw 318i and Volkswagen Jetta 2.3 V5
Expensive to buy, expensive to service & just generally have (with most of them wanting 98 fuel) parts are expensive
No more reliable than an australian made or japanese car
Generally well built if it's from germany.
Comfortable
Above average as far as ease of use goes
Loads of features, loads of lovely expensive options.
Fun to drive, handle well

to conclude: if you've got money, by all means buy one. you won't regret it.
If you don't have the money for one, then you'll start running into problems.

So yeah, I enjoy them, but high costs continue even after purchase.

[Tysonv48]

European Cars = Expensive Parts and Driving Lights

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by Djrystofer

I've got two european cars in my garage, a bmw 318i and Volkswagen Jetta 2.3 V5
Expensive to buy, expensive to service & just generally have (with most of them wanting 98 fuel) parts are expensive
No more reliable than an australian made or japanese car
Generally well built if it's from germany.
Comfortable
Above average as far as ease of use goes
Loads of features, loads of lovely expensive options.
Fun to drive, handle well

to conclude: if you've got money, by all means buy one. you won't regret it.
If you don't have the money for one, then you'll start running into problems.

So yeah, I enjoy them, but high costs continue even after purchase.

I've got a Ford Territory in my garage at the moment but I've owned a few Euros and last year was driving a Skoda Octavia 1.9l TDI for 6 months (12,000 km) in Europe, mostly between 120 and 150 km/h! The Skoda had 200,000 ks on it (at 6 years old) and was an absolute rock, I've never come across such a well-built and reliable car (considering the mileage) in 40 years of driving. Well designed and nice to drive too. VW platform underneath but a proven one, not trouble-prone like many new release VWs.

They're not expensive to buy or keep in Europe of course, but these sorts of Euro cars are unnecessarily expensive in Australia. Buying price here is about 50% higher than in Europe (though comparable with other Australian car prices) and service and parts costs are far too expensive in Australia. A little bit of gouging by the importers I think.

The Skoda at least is far more reliable than an Australian-built car. I'd never in a million years get the reliability from the Territory that I got from the Skoda, nor drive it as hard. The Territory is a beautifully designed car but it has to be babied along.

Reliability surveys in Europe (Powers, warranty providers etc) show that the best-built European cars aren't from Germany but from Czech Republic and Slovakia - Skoda, some VW models, Hyundai/Kia, one shared Peugeot/Citroen/Toyota model and some others I may have forgotten. The best German-built cars come from Ford Germany. France, Italy and Spain have had some terrible reliability issues over the years. British cars - are there any and reliability was always an issue? Volvos you hardly ever see in Europe now, don't know what's happened to them.

If VAG reconsiders its service/parts pricing strategy in Australia, for me it'll be byebye Ford, hello Skoda, no question. So yes, my vote for a good Euro car over anything else but you have to look carefully to find the good because they're not all equal. And those ongoing costs are a consideration, but balanced against that is knowing your Skoda is not going to be off the road with problems at regular intervals.

If only Ford could provide good quality in Australia because there are some good designs in the stable there, pity....

(And as for Holden I'll never go there again, baaad experience!)

[mcnews]

I am no strict defender of the faith and happily often call a spade a shovel here on Fords and am certainly not one eyed at all, but curious at your Territory babied comment.

Ours gets driven like a sportscar on some of the most challenging tarmac in Oz, has 133,000km on it thus far, at the moment is 1000km overdue for a service and the oil still looks fairly good after 16,000km without a change. Hit a wombat 18 months ago and only cleaned fur and blood off the underneath of the car with no damage but a slightly damaged front undertray piece and bottom lip. It has had a few suspension bits and pieces replaced under warranty but otherwise it is an incredibly impressive car and dynamically makes all the imported big SUV type vehicles feel like turds. It uses a bit too much fuel, is a little crude at higher rpm and the interior trims feel cheap as but overall I think it is an amazing piece of kit and perhaps the best Australian vehicle ever built in a lot of ways, especially if held up against much more expensive overseas built competitors. The new model is crying out for a latest tech diesel instead of the old cast off it currently suffers with, but I guess it is and always has been built down to a price, thus its success in the marketplace. Without Territory Ford would have most likely shut its doors years ago here in Oz.

[GQ_Smooth]

Have had 2 7 series BMW's in the past. They drive well, handle well and feel solid. Electrics seem to be more problematic than Japanese cars, more difficult to work on as they don't appear to be mechanic friendly, parts aren't to bad if you are happy to use Ebay and wait the little bit longer, but a lot of their user friendly features which are nice when new are relatively expensive to maintain once the car loses some of it's shine. They depreciate in Australia faster than a Great Wall car, which makes them relatively affordable after 3 years but maintenance costs increase greatly which makes the total ownership cost higher than most people are willing to pay (based on purchase price of the car). They are normally well engineered, but that engineering doesn't take into account not maintaining the scheduled maintenance. They react worse than local cars when you miss servicing intervals.

[madwag]

Hmm, as im still relatively new to cars (im 20) ill speak from what dad has told me over the years.
Hilman Hunter - Rubbish, electrics where a joke
VW type 3 fastback - Great solid well built car, was noisy, hot, slow, the brakes stuck on in summer
Audi A4 - His was a absolute lemon, had it for 3 years and spent way too much keeping it on the road, everything that broke was mechanical or electrical, that being said, great interior quality and body
audi TT - great build and interior, not as many things have let go mechanically but when they go its BIG $$$


I am friends with a few BMW mechanics, and i asked "do BMWs as a German car uphold the reputation?"
He replied the only one that doesn't leak oil is the X3, all other have their problems, but you cant kill the X3.

I have a VW type 3 currently and i must say that as a 44 yearold car in original condition its has held up better than most Aussie cars i see on here getting restored.

Would i buy one? Probably not, as i know what is needed just for general running costs.

[4.0i_SiX]

Being a mechanic and aircon tech I personally would never own one. I work on cars all day so when the need arises to repair my own cars, I want something that parts are readily available, at reasonable prices and are relatively easy to fit.

I get far too many VW's and Audi's with evaporator problems ( they generally use the same parts and require dash out to replace )

BMW's with compressor problems. Theyre very expensive due to most having an electronic control valve built in. Throttlebody issues, X5 transmission problems etc

Merc, electrical problems, balljoints etc

Volvos, Astra's, polo's etc have radiator problems. Talk to any radiator shop, they dont survive in this heat. The radiator hose plastic quick connect couplings just disintegrate as well.

We get just as many Aussie cars come through, but generally the parts are on the shelf, aftermarket or genuine and theyre out the door the same day. Whenever we get a Euro in, you can almost guarantee it will be there for a few days and usually with a higher repair bill.

This is my personal experience. I wont bag anyone who drives one as long as theyre aware that theyre not the "be all and end all" that they somehow have a reputation for being.

[elfutura]

I've currently got 2 European cars-Peugeot 306 GTi6 & my much modified motorsport car, a 405 Mi16 & have had Euro cars (Renault & Peugeot) since the mid 80's both here & overseas.

Like most things they need to be serviced & maintained to get the best from them. The GTi6, purchased new in 1998 has been the most reliable of all. The later range of cars have had many problems, partly due to their component suppliers, inept local dealer training & diagnosis.

Parts can be expensive if you buy genuine, but there is quality aftermarket options around (often the same brands without the OEM logos on the box). The disparity between fuel grades here & Europe mean that they mostly require 98 RON in their diet which can be a negative to some.

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by mcnews

I am no strict defender of the faith and happily often call a spade a shovel here on Fords and am certainly not one eyed at all, but curious at your Territory babied comment.

Ours gets driven like a sportscar on some of the most challenging tarmac in Oz, has 133,000km on it thus far, at the moment is 1000km overdue for a service and the oil still looks fairly good after 16,000km without a change. Hit a wombat 18 months ago and only cleaned fur and blood off the underneath of the car with no damage but a slightly damaged front undertray piece and bottom lip. It has had a few suspension bits and pieces replaced under warranty but otherwise it is an incredibly impressive car and dynamically makes all the imported big SUV type vehicles feel like turds. It uses a bit too much fuel, is a little crude at higher rpm and the interior trims feel cheap as but overall I think it is an amazing piece of kit and perhaps the best Australian vehicle ever built in a lot of ways, especially if held up against much more expensive overseas built competitors.

I think that's actually quite a good summary mcnews, particularly because you've also summarised some of the problems! We've actually owned two Territorys over nearly a decade now, so the second time we voted with our wallets on the good points and certainly the design and dynamics are better than any of the same-price bracket imported SUVs.

Yes, I drove the first one like a sportscar (which is how it invites you to drive!) but learned from that not to drive the second one like a sportscar if we wanted to keep it together for the long term. Ah yes, "a few suspension bits and pieces", a nice discreet way to phrase it, those rattles and ominous bangs from the back, the windows and doors that work when they feel like it and the interior trims, yes they sure are cheap.

From this, though, I'd have to say that the nicest thing about ownership of an Australian is that Ford unhesitatingly came to the party on remedying the many little problems, so that aspect hasn't really cost us anything. I wouldn't expect the same from VW or Toyota and that's a very compelling reason to buy a local - if you're prepared to put up with the other things.

So it's a weighing up of a number of factors, one of which is that the Territory, at least, rarely "fails to proceed" from the garage so there's nothing really of a show-stopping nature, which I guess is the bottom line. But hell those Skodas are good.

Originally Posted by 4.0i_SiX

We get just as many Aussie cars come through, but generally the parts are on the shelf, aftermarket or genuine and theyre out the door the same day. Whenever we get a Euro in, you can almost guarantee it will be there for a few days and usually with a higher repair bill.

It's a truism in any country that probably the best car to buy is the one made in that country because there will be hundreds of local mechanics (i.e. not just big dealers) who know the car and the parts supply is good and cheap. So when in Rome do as the Romans -

In Italy buy a Fiat
In Germany a VW
In France a Peugeot
In Czech Republic a Skoda
In Australia a local Ford or Holden!

[4.0i_SiX]

Originally Posted by new2ford

I think that's actually quite a good summary mcnews, particularly because you've also summarised some of the problems! We've actually owned two Territorys over nearly a decade now, so the second time we voted with our wallets on the good points and certainly the design and dynamics are better than any of the same-price bracket imported SUVs.

Yes, I drove the first one like a sportscar (which is how it invites you to drive!) but learned from that not to drive the second one like a sportscar if we wanted to keep it together for the long term. Ah yes, "a few suspension bits and pieces", a nice discreet way to phrase it, those rattles and ominous bangs from the back, the windows and doors that work when they feel like it and the interior trims, yes they sure are cheap.

From this, though, I'd have to say that the nicest thing about ownership of an Australian is that Ford unhesitatingly came to the party on remedying the many little problems, so that aspect hasn't really cost us anything. I wouldn't expect the same from VW or Toyota and that's a very compelling reason to buy a local - if you're prepared to put up with the other things.

So it's a weighing up of a number of factors, one of which is that the Territory, at least, rarely "fails to proceed" from the garage so there's nothing really of a show-stopping nature, which I guess is the bottom line. But hell those Skodas are good.


It's a truism in any country that probably the best car to buy is the one made in that country because there will be hundreds of local mechanics (i.e. not just big dealers) who know the car and the parts supply is good and cheap. So when in Rome do as the Romans -

In Italy buy a Fiat
In Germany a VW
In France a Peugeot
In Czech Republic a Skoda
In Australia a local Ford or Holden!

Excellent, unbiased post. I think something that is so heavily relied upon, like a daily driven car. Needs to be not only reliable, but fast and easy to repair. Some people could not continue with their daily lives without a car, so why buy something that is going to ( in the event of a breakdown ) take days or even weeks to repair, whether its a part supply issue or just lack of knowledge etc.

Then again a little redheaded italian in the shed as a weekend toy is fine by me

[tweeked]

My missus has a Astra Convertible. Had the roof make a nasty crack noise the other day and wouldn't shut properly. So i pull the trim of and see 1 plastic part in the latch mechanism that pulls the roof tight had cracked. Should be relatively chep me thinks so I heads off to the interwebs to find the part/other people who may have fixed it for hints.

Holy moly........you cant buy the plastic part, only a pair of full latches. about $2500 from GMH. A guy on the central coast makes a cnc replacement for the plastic bit and sells his refurbished bit for $1875 thankyou very much.

So the Macgyver in me cracked it. some epoxy, a peice of gal shaped to fit around the broken peice, more epoxy, $8.95 and all good after a week. we will see how it goes. Oh, and the other side was cracked and ready to snap too - so it copped the same treatment.


The main crack was all the way through horizontaly where yo see the line of epoxy. The little bit to the right was just a chip that flew off when it went.

[elfutura]

Well done tweeked. I hope it's a successful repair. It can be frustrating when you find a small sub assembly isn't available on it's own. I've lost count of how many times I've done the same thing.

As they say, 'Necessity is the Mother of Invention!'

[Wretched]

I have a Euro Ford and after ~135k km and 5 years of ownership I couldn't have asked for a better car.
Without wanting to jinx it, the car has been faultless (aside from the poor quality stereo fitted). There are no squeaks or rattles, no sagging of interior parts or premature wear and tear that I have experienced with my local cars.
Servicing isn't really that much more (if at all) compared to the two Falcons I had previously.

My folks also have a VW Polo 77TSI, after 3 or so years with it, no problems yet. servicing isn't outrageous. The car is solid as a rock and is a quality piece of kit.

I'd definitely consider another Euro should I want to change car and would recommend it to others.

[2011G6E]

Not sure...old Puegeots like the 404 will run forever, especially the diesel.

The standard logic regarding Benzs' is "Look at a new S Class Benz today, and you'll see the features that your standard family car will have in ten years time".
From air bags to climate control to ABS to just about anything else you find in your car now, that logic has stood the test of time for decades now.

Because of our distance from Europe, having to have special RHD versions made for our market, import duties and taxes, and just plain "prestige targeting" we pay way more than we should for not only the cars, but the servicing.
In Germany for example, the taxis are cars that are sold here as premium luxury cars and service prices are set accordingly, when often they have no more tech than a new Commodore or Falcon has in it...but when you roll up with that three pointed star on the bonnet for one example, the dealers get dollar signs in their eyes.

[mcnews]

LCT is a big part of it.... You but a high end FPV and luxury car tax forms a significant component of the purchase price, let alone buying something much more expensive. But the killer is repair costs should you get unlucky with a Euro. A mate of mine that is a VW dealer told me when I was looking at a secondhand top of the line Touareg, told me to run a mile, and that even if they trade them because of making a motza on the car they are selling, they just wholesale them as they don't want to warranty them..... Thus why V10 diesel with the lot that were about 140k sell for less than 40k with 100,000km on them, and even then you would be very brave....

[UberKnee]

I'm a big fan of Euro cars particularly the big 3 German performance car makers; BMW, Audi, Mercedes Benz, but yes they are rather pricey but generally there's alot more tech in them, alot more gadgets and generally gear that we wont see in local cars for another decade. The high price for servicing just comes down to the fact that here in Australia for non Australian or Japanese cars we get bent over and raped.

[smoo]

The whole Euros are expensive is a myth. People who think this should price up dealer oem Toyota d4d turbo or long block, Accord Euro wing mirror, Alloytech V6 AFM, Vitara/Kisashi V6 cylinder head, Nissan CVT auto, anything to do with Korean common rail turbo diesels.
At a guess I'd say high down time would be most common on low volume sellers. High downtime is also common on the jap stuff aswell.
I have a new shape Jeep Wrangler JK, pretty much anything I need for it from the dealer is 4 weeks ex USA. Warranty and insurance aside I can jump on the net and get an aftermarket part at half the price delivered in 5 working days. Same deal with the Euros.

[sgt_doofey]

Have a Peugeot 307 on the driveway at the moment. Had it for nearly 7 years now. Sure it has a few little quirks and we've had a couple of electrical problems, but damn if it isn't a great car to drive! A quick sprint up through the Adelaide hills will leave you with a big grin on your face, even though it's the wagon!
Thankfully for us, all the electrical problems occurred under warranty and haven't surfaced since.
I've found a great Peugeot specialist mechanic here in Adelaide. Uses genuine parts and it doesn't cost the earth. Much better than the local dealer here.

What did we go with a Pug? We leased one (206 hatch) in Europe back in 2005. I was so impressed with that little 1.4l turbo diesel and the way it drove at 170km/h on the German autobahn that when we came home and had to buy another car, the Peugeot dealership was our first stop.

Euros aren't that much more expensive. Find the specialist mechanics and have a better repair/service job done than the dealer at a fraction of the dealer pricing.

[LG17]

Plenty of features.
Lousy air conditioning.
Prone to water leaks.
Expensive to repair.

[Djrystofer]

Originally Posted by new2ford

In Germany a VW

I own both and I can say, the Beamer laps the VW in almost every department.
The newer VW has rattles everywhere, the beamer in it's 18 year life hasn't got a single rattle thanks to all those heavy plastics.

Reliability wise they're both quite equal, within 8 months of having the beamer all the lovely plastic coolant pipes cracked with the cold temperatures in the night to sudden hot in the day. Radiator cracked within 3 years.

Volkswagen, coil packs packed up within the first day of having it, go figure I'm speaking from experience of owning one and I can say as far as reliability goes, they're on par with a falcon if not lower.

[2011G6E]

The resale of Euro stuff is staggering. When we were car shopping recently we saw second hand stuff like a Volvo XC70...a fantastic all wheel driver...for down near $20,000. In another dealer I saw a 2005 BMW 735i, a car almost exactly like my last boss owned. He paid nearly two hundred grand for his, a 740i, and I think the 735i sold for around $180,000.

The one in the dealership?

$39,990. Holy. Crap.

And I thought being offered $18,000 trade in for our two year old G6E with all the fruit which was worth over fifty grand when we bought it was shocking...

[mik]

euro`s , imo good for a rental car or short term, long term give me a local any day, actually if there where no locals available i`d have japanese no worries about that, probably toyo...... oh hang on i`ve got one .

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by tweeked

My missus has a Astra Convertible. Had the roof make a nasty crack noise the other day and wouldn't shut properly. So i pull the trim of and see 1 plastic part in the latch mechanism that pulls the roof tight had cracked. Should be relatively chep me thinks so I heads off to the interwebs to find the part/other people who may have fixed it for hints.

Holy moly........you cant buy the plastic part, only a pair of full latches. about $2500 from GMH. A guy on the central coast makes a cnc replacement for the plastic bit and sells his refurbished bit for $1875 thankyou very much.

So the Macgyver in me cracked it. some epoxy, a peice of gal shaped to fit around the broken peice, more epoxy, $8.95 and all good after a week. we will see how it goes. Oh, and the other side was cracked and ready to snap too - so it copped the same treatment.


The main crack was all the way through horizontaly where yo see the line of epoxy. The little bit to the right was just a chip that flew off when it went.

image

I had a 2006 Citroen Pluriel for a while, a convertible of sorts as well.

Under warranty the window switches went, as did the air-con fan and the CD player...

Soon after warranty the rear electric window control module dies... call Citroen to be told it is a "Very common fault" and the part was $1800 supply only.... And he was right, I contacted several wreckers in Europe and that was the first part to be sold from a wrecked car.... It certainly should have been a recall item.

Got it repaired by an auto sparky for $400.

When I was doing a little more research it turns out the roof mechanism has a similar part to what you describe... and you cannot buy just that part, you essentially need to buy a whole mechanism for many thousands of dollars...

When I started to notice the roof action was not as fluid as it should have been I sold it promptly.

The car was hardly used as well, 18K km when bought so certainly not high km for the problems it had.

[blueline]

thanks for the replies, pretty much what I expected. Just needed to make sure I didn't stick to whatever I am thinking, I needed objective views.

Thanks again, and will let you know when the blog is up and running so you can tell me what you think.

thanks for taking the time to read this,

Ian

[GQ_Smooth]

Originally Posted by mcnews

LCT is a big part of it.... You but a high end FPV and luxury car tax forms a significant component of the purchase price, let alone buying something much more expensive. But the killer is repair costs should you get unlucky with a Euro. A mate of mine that is a VW dealer told me when I was looking at a secondhand top of the line Touareg, told me to run a mile, and that even if they trade them because of making a motza on the car they are selling, they just wholesale them as they don't want to warranty them..... Thus why V10 diesel with the lot that were about 140k sell for less than 40k with 100,000km on them, and even then you would be very brave....

Thank you for that, was looking at a late model R50, you may have just talked me out of it, with your post.

[Vincenzo]

I have two cars at present - refer to sig.

Finding the appropriate mechanic is the key to happiness. There are some parts that are expensive to buy for the BMW and the same applies to the XR6.

Rego is almost identical as is Comprehensive insurance. Both vehicles are within a few kilos of each other, power is almost identical, top speed is within a few kilometres of each other as is fuel consumption.

The main differences are one is 27y/o 2 door and one is 12y/o 4 door. Both are serviced regularly and will continue this situation.

Cheers Vincenzo

[Franco Cozzo]

The aircon in Euro cars is like an emphysema sufferer blowing through a cigarette butt at you.

[Vincenzo]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

The aircon in Euro cars is like an emphysema sufferer blowing through a cigarette butt at you.

No where near as cold as the Falcon but cool enough to take the edge of a tropical heat day.

Cheers Vincenzo

[Spinner77]

cool enough to take the edge of a tropical heat day

I knew it! The renowned rubber-band powered aircon is part of a greeny conspiracy to save the planet and help you commune with nature (whether you like it or not, of course).

like an emphysema sufferer blowing through a cigarette butt at you.

Well it's fine to laugh but consider which is worse - emphysema or Parkinson's Disease?
http://www.trdrp.org/fundedresearch/...?grant_id=1613