The curtains go down for Holden

[XRtowcar]

Did anyone turn off the lights as they left.

[GCRXR6]

Originally Posted by XRtowcar

Did anyone turn off the lights as they left.

Hope so. Some one will have pay the light bill otherwise.

[DFB FGXR6]

Originally Posted by Syndrome

The High Feature V6, as it was known to those involved with the engine, know that the Turbo used for SAAB was only suitable for front-wheel-drive applications.

When the engine program was approved by GM-Powertrain, Riccardo and Bosch in 1999, it was decided that St Catherine's would handle all of North America's production requirements with Holden to get the remainder, thus bumping up the production volumes to make the construction of the new engine plant in Port Melbourne viable.

Holden would get the NA V6 for RWD
It would also produce turbo variant for SAAB
And it would produce a direct-injection version for Fiat

However SAAB was on death's door
And the GM-Fiat relationship ended acrimoniously which is still being fought

https://www.axios.com/general-motors...daa36ac1a.html

Therefore the HFV6/Alloytech group of engines never achieved the technical/production & sales/performance/profit goals set out in 1999 (at least in Australia).

Total balls-up!

Just adding to this, in addition to the above, Alfa Romeo, Suzuki and Isuzu used variations of the HFV6 as well.

The 3.2 DI version Alfa used in the Brera and 159 replaced the glorious Alfa Busso V6, one of the few V6's I actually like the sound of.

Can you imagine the come down from trading a Busso for a glorified Alloytech!

[Citroënbender]

Anyone not liking the sound of a Busso, is without passion in their life.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Syndrome

The High Feature V6, as it was known to those involved with the engine, know that the Turbo used for SAAB was only suitable for front-wheel-drive applications.

When the engine program was approved by GM-Powertrain, Riccardo and Bosch in 1999, it was decided that St Catherine's would handle all of North America's production requirements with Holden to get the remainder, thus bumping up the production volumes to make the construction of the new engine plant in Port Melbourne viable.

Holden would get the NA V6 for RWD
It would also produce turbo variant for SAAB
And it would produce a direct-injection version for Fiat

However SAAB was on death's door
And the GM-Fiat relationship ended acrimoniously which is still being fought

https://www.axios.com/general-motors...daa36ac1a.html

Therefore the HFV6/Alloytech group of engines never achieved the technical/production & sales/performance/profit goals set out in 1999 (at least in Australia).

Total balls-up!

Is there anything GM don’t end up screwing up? Decades of brand failures.

[Citroënbender]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Is there anything GM don’t end up screwing up? Decades of brand failures.

Mistakes? They seemed to get those right every time.

[gossy]

They built some real nice cars and kept us Ford boys on our toes. RIP Holden

[FormulaFG]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

I was walking through the Elizabeth shopping centre the other day and noticed a Hyundai display in one of the shops, then i noticed the name...Peter Page Hyundai.
For those not familiar, Peter Page Holden was an institution when it comes to Holden dealers, been on the corner of Elizabeth way and a constant supporter of local sport for half a century and whilst im sure the sporting association will continue, seeing it a Hyundai dealer puts a full stop on Holdens presence in the Elizabeth area.

It's a similar story down south of Adelaide too.

Hamilton Holden at Brighton was once a proud Holden dealer that had been there for almost forever. Huge red Holden logo above the front door and HSV logo just to the left. Maloos, SS Commodores and even a Camaro or two used to get parked next to the footpath. It was a nice sight to drive past.

Over the last month they've been taking the signs down and putting up new ones. They are still red, but now its the MG octagon. Anyone born today will never know what it once was and that's incredibly sad.

[lra]

Originally Posted by FormulaFG

Over the last month they've been taking the signs down and putting up new ones. They are still red, but now its the MG octagon. Anyone born today will never know what it once was and that's incredibly sad.

Are you referring to Rory the Lion or the MG Octagon.
Neither will be what they once were.

[Adamz Ghia]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

That's it in a nutshell.
They ran the Commode as their Hero Car, then sold re-badged Isuzus, Nissans, Toyotas, Suzukis, Opels, Daewoos, and Chevys, often mixing and matching. Models came, were heavily promoted, then simply disappeared. At times I couldn't even remember what models they were selling.
They could have leveraged their brand loyalty into a strong market position across multiple segments. Instead they ruined their reputation with a succession of substandard models and almost psychotic name flipping.

Their advertising when they decided to quit Australian Manufacturing, was a master-stroke of self-immolation. Most punters would not have known or cared, so Holden ran ads to remind them.

TBH Ford hasn't done much better, especially with the PowerShart fiasco, but they have been saved by the Ranger.

They had it best between 1999 and 2004, when they had VT to VZ, and the rest of their range was Euro sourced. It wasn’t until they started sourcing from Daewoo and change model names that it all started to turn to crap.

[cycle myth]

Spot on.

This seemed to give them amazing brand momentum.

We couldn't work out how they kept the success going 2014 with the offering they had.

There should be some respect for their ability to keep things bubbling along with the value proposition and limited edition releases (like Storm etc).

[Sprintey]

Yep, the VT to VYII era they were on an absolute roll, and it's this that will be remembered as well as the HQ era into the future for Holden fans. You can get AWD utes of 2 or 4 doors, an AWD wagon, 2 door Monaros and AWD Monaros of this series!

That coincides with the last Ecotec 6s. Yes they had VZ, but that debuted the Alloytec which I can remember as no different to drive, with a stinging surprise in the timing chains and sludging.

It was always the everyday motor, the 6, that was the volume and the experience for most people, so we are lucky Ford's I6 was so good for so long.



How they fell from grace, IMO

1) Alloytec
2) End of local production, they lost their main unique selling point. - Stefan whatsisname, the GM exec saying Australians would have to be educated to FWD... yeah, nah.
3) Australia deciding it would be the only free market free trade nation, when all others protect, good onya DFAT. Well, at least we now know what happens.
4) No local SUV like the Territory. Their attempt (Adventra) failed, and they substituted the Craptiva. A Commodore and SUV from same platform may have been a bit more resilient
5) Ford left. Supplier base insufficient
6) High AUD as of mining boom.
7) Overall expense to build.
8) Parent company woes post GFC.

[Sprintey]

Also, guess what, cars are now noticeably more expensive new than when we had a domestic industry.

[MITCHAY]

It's very interesting to read about Peter Hanenberger and how Holden crashed and burned after the turnover in management since he left in 2003.

He seemed to have a long term vision while the rest seemed to be very short sighted.

It is interesting to note the profit and loss in Holden over the last 20 years. A great deal of that is attributable to the GFC, high AUD, the development costs of the VE, and the cutting of Government support as well being the final nail . It was a perfect storm.

The scenario where that didn't happen would be interesting to see where Holden would be now. It might have been kicking the can down the road but we did ride out the GFC pretty good and the AUD is a lot lower than it was then.

No doubt that the Commodore volume sellers were declining but with a better overall range and perhaps with more locally built models that catered to the market shift and also an export market we could be looking at a very different situation.

At this point all we get from looking back is a sore neck

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Adamz Ghia

They had it best between 1999 and 2004, when they had VT to VZ, and the rest of their range was Euro sourced. It wasn’t until they started sourcing from Daewoo and change model names that it all started to turn to crap.

The TS Astra was a half decent little runabout with a few couple issues but nothing major, they went well too.

The following AH Astra porked up a bit.

Good to see we're all on the same page on the Alloytec, absolute boat anchor in stock form, though I made good money out of them replacing faulty oil pressure senders.

[Sprintey]

Here's one for Rokwiz:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...ype_(1979).jpg

If only...


Edit: TS Astra was good too, niece used to have one, I'd be white knuckled hanging on as she drove it 20cm from the bumper of the car in front

[Sprintey]

Here's a quote from Franco's link to original article:


"Holden tried to reinvent itself as a new-age brand, even though it had showrooms full of old models.

Instead of using straight-talk in its advertisements to Australian new-car buyers, Holden embarked on a truly bizarre series of TV ads, including one campaign that glorified a bunch of art thieves in a mock car chase, another with a chef making spring rolls, and a billboard campaign that dared people to buy a Holden if they had “nothing to prove”.


Although some of the ads won accolades for artistic flair, if new-car sales charts are the scoreboard, none of the ads hit the mark – nor did they tell consumers anything about the vehicles.

Holden, the company that had built its reputation on “football, meat pies, kangaroos and Holden cars” was suddenly trying to go metro or hipster, or a bit of both. It was an own goal. Traditional buyers were turned off by this new contrived Holden image, and would-be buyers saw Holden as being try-hards or, at the very least, insincere.

As one dealer put it: “We were at the stage where we just needed to sell some bloody cars, and what Holden did was put up a bunch of TV ads that meant nothing to anybody. They needed to simply say: ‘Here is the car, this is how much it costs, here are the features it has that the others don’t’. At least that way we might have got some people in the door.” "



Basically, that's 'get woke go broke'. But there's a comment after the article that points to the people doing the marketing shifting in their demographics/views, and not backing or believing in what they were marketing. It coincides with some truly appalling Ford marketing of that era, talking fingers, I'm looking at you.

The takeaway is, I guess, employ marketers who are passionate about your product, or you will get nuptys.

[Citroënbender]

The phrase “perfect storm” gets a lot of usage these days.

Are we simply getting too slack in our “forecasting”?

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

The phrase “perfect storm” gets a lot of usage these days.

Are we simply getting too slack in our “forecasting”?

The propagandist in me wants to yell climate change, then try and sell you some climate change preventative solution that I'm sponsored by

I'm with you there, this ain't no 'perfect storm', this is text book sexy fingers GM where they **** everything they touch.

[Sprintey]

Funny, the 'perfect storm' bit had me imagining the perfect storm of smug from George Clooney's acceptance speech joining up with the hybrid car smug storm over South Park, and moving on to hit San Fransisco's smug storm, making that city disappear up its own a#$%hole.

edit: best link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnFAAdOBB1c

[oldel]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

The takeaway is, I guess, employ marketers who are passionate about your product, or you will get nuptys.

What if marketing wasn't the only problem? Say for example the problem was the product? A lot of people got burnt on bad GM products like opel astras and daewoo cruzes.
What could holden use - no longer Australian but they sold German and Korean cars.
"hey, we're another seller of Korean and German cars that aren't very good?"

Face it, the less talked about the product in ads, the better. It's not "get woke be broke" it's sell poor stuff poorly because someone needs to be paid somehow and that crap needs to be shifted somehow.
No one could be passionate about the product, most holden buyers straying from the commodore got burnt, no longer much to do with an Australian brand so it would be cynical to use history.

Nah, to be successful first off you need a good product that can compete. Commodore could in the weak sedan and wagon market, but it is a weak market so it had to go. I know people hate the new commodore being called the commodore but I'd go further and say they shouldn't have had it at all. Have no sedan - save their money. No point having a sedan these days unless you're toyota and it's a camry - just ask ford, nissan, mits etc. They don't sell today unless camry, or german (and that's tiny numbers, but that's where the cops and pollies went so they do sell). Point is don't bother, even GM are working that out with caddies and ford are too with mondeos, taurus etc in US/AU.

Ignore the small car segment, no money, so they make crap that hurts rep anyway.

Just import massive amounts of SUVs and trucks, preferably from the USA not Korea. If they just had a small truck and SUV, a large truck and SUV, and a perforance car they would be killing it and have products to talk about, get attention and market well.
If you're reading this GM - I'm available for hire ;-)


E: But anyway, nothing would have worked, as they were a GM owned company and GM was getting rid of all RHD markets UK, SA, Sth asia etc. They only cared about Nth America, Sth America and China.

[Sprintey]

Hi oldel, agree with much you wrote about the market shifts, all the more reason they needed to spring a "Territory" off their platform.

The product less talked about the better? No, disagree, you need to outline what your product is, what it features and how it can add to a customer's life. If you can do this quickly and simply - visually too - products targeting Australian males will work. Target a bit of emotion/sentimentality and bingo. This is the country of "The Sentimental Bloke," after all.

eg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1ZcdEs6YgU

Look at all the dot points of features, see the driver having a manually shifting the auto transmission (this was new). Perfect. And, that genuinely was a good product when launched, more power, more features, new stuff, good looks etc. How it aged maybe a little different...

The marketing didn't help after 2008 or so. If I was in the target market - young adult in 2000, middle age in 2020 and Aussie car fan; and most buyers for Falcon/Commodore are male, then they missed the mark with wishy-washy advertising after about 2008 or so. Holden likewise in the 2010s.

Because this is a Holden thread, here's one from the most recent glory days:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kryaTJNMgE

And in terms of good product, some brilliant product was launched by an Australian company into this environment of declining sedan-based sales in this time: Ford.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mf-qz0FyOsA

Look at all the cool stuff you can do with your family!

It got funnier:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRjUXTmb1tE

And my partner, who had the normal non-Turbo, loved that one. So did the kids - ca-ching - new generation amused and hooked. What unique feature does that show? By eating the sports cars it uses metaphor to show something they weren't allowed to show - that the Turbo had honk!

Ford did a very good Territory ad too, where they showed its towing capacity by going up into the Otways above Apollo Bay, making a ski slope with ice they towed up the incline, and then snowboarding down it - can't find that though.


Agree also with you that masses of SUVs and trucks from the USA is the way for GM (and Chrysler - and would be a feather in Ford's hat). Enter: RAM, Silverado, F150, Expedition, Explorer, Aviator etc etc

[Syndrome]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

It's very interesting to read about Peter Hanenberger and how Holden crashed and burned after the turnover in management since he left in 2003.

Peter Hanenberger, like Geoff Polities, understood the Australian car market and the Australia new car buyers.

[lra]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Hi oldel, agree with much you wrote about the market shifts, all the more reason they needed to spring a "Territory" off their platform.

When you look at what they had planned before GM used the GFC excuse to pull their pants down .......... Nullabor SUV, Monaro, super cab ute using the Monaro doors, and Torana, with USA exports ........... well, who knows what could have been.

As for anyone who wants to buy a GMSV vehicle, I would rather recommend them a sporty MG SUV, or a Great Wally ute, based on previous customer service, and future spares support.

[Dr Smith]

If a factory needs 120,000 units to make any reasonable money even here with our higher wages, rising energy costs (this one confounds me) than what cars could be built here that meet that build rate and sell in high enough numbers domestically. The biggest selling vehicles (utes) here sell 3500-4000 each per month, so that's upto 48,000 per year in a good year.

You either need exports and then that means you have to make money selling from here and up against other government supported plants.....look at Thailand and what it has now become after the "so called" FTA...or you need a plant that can somehow build two or three different models to reach 120,000 units a year....and how does a local plant even try to go about building a Ranger type, a CX-5 type, a Camry type and a Kluger type to reach 120,000 units based on our top selling models.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

rising energy costs (this one confounds me)

a bit off topic, but there are a few factors that go into this:

1. If you look at the breakdown in power costs, the bulk of the charge is "overheads". Reticulation, Maintenance, and Administration. So even if the cost of generation stays steady, all those other costs increase. It doesn't help that in many cases it's run by huge inefficient bureaucracies. Privatisation doesn't help, because they simply try to gouge the customer to the maximum extent allowed.
2. The cheapest sources of power are Hydro (if available) and Brown Coal. Unfortunately the Hippies hate both, so our growing power needs are being fed by increasingly expensive alternative technologies.
3. The Hippies preferred sources, Solar and Wind are not yet economically viable (without government subsidy) so in real terms the power is more expensive.
4. In some systems, commercial users are effectively subsidising the uptake of domestic solar
5. Gas is a major source of power for some grids, however whilst abundant the price is tied to export parity, so global demand, and the FX rate effect prices

[oldel]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Hi oldel, agree with much you wrote about the market shifts, all the more reason they needed to spring a "Territory" off their platform.

The product less talked about the better? No, disagree, you need to outline what your product is, what it features and how it can add to a customer's life. If you can do this quickly and simply - visually too - products targeting Australian males will work. Target a bit of emotion/sentimentality and bingo. This is the country of "The Sentimental Bloke," after all.

This failed after they got rid of the RWD commodore. To make such sales work after dropping the VF was impossible. They needed a hero car, that was gone after the v8 commodore.
Meanwhile at ford some young bloke might have lusted after a xr5t in their heart and went to ford, then the head and reality rules and they bought a fiesta. Some older guy might visit ford to look at the xr6t, but bought a standard falcon to be sensible. Some older family man might have looked at the awd turbo terry, but bought a mondeo wagon (unlikely, not many sold but you get the point.)

Then ford put a lot of marketing into the ranger and hit paydirt in this post sedan/ post small car era. (there's small cars but they are dominated by the koreans and japanese: US companies can't compete)

holden had no hero cars, they just had garbage that got lost in the market and people bought hyundais or whatever instead.
If they had a truckload of big GM products they would have their niche and heros and could sell lower class and cheaper stuff to the dreamers that visited holden dealers. Instead they just had GM korean cars and rushed in the race to the bottom so there's no point talking about the cars that offer nothing.

[mondeomatureguy]

Hi guys,
Ive been into cars ever since i was a young guy under ten years old.
My late Father worked for a Holden Dealer in Sydney If find it so sad that Holden has gone but also that we dont build any cars now in Australia.

Sure its cheaper to build cars overseas, but i think we built some great cars in Australia once and they were built for Australian roads and they didnt fall apart or cost a fortune to fix.

If you asked Allan Moffat or the Late Peter Brock when they were racing cars "if they ever think that Holden or Ford will ever stop making cars in Australia"?

Their reply would have been "of course not"!