Today is 10 years since the announcement that shook Australia & destroyed an industry. And killed Holden.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by CyberWasp

Yes, Ford had the Territory all lined up to be exported to Thailand after the signing of the Free Trade Agreement.
Then Thailand slapped Tariffs on the import of vehicles with engines over 3.0lt.

Who makes deals like this and says or does nothing.

All this country has ever needed is a government that actually works for the best interests of its people. I don't know who they work for but it not the people that vote here. Both sides are the same.

The lack of response from the Howard Government at that time still burns me...they could have argued against it and instead the Thai government openly targeted local OEM suppliers to set up overseas. The Territory became similarly priced to a BMW X5 in Thailand and killed it's chances immediately. I think 100 were shipped over.

Just think, if they could have sold 500/month to Thailand and possibly same or more to South Africa, add NZ and some more RHD countries plus Australian sales and you could have had 5000 units built a month and maybe still ongoing production here with updates drawing on Ford's global tech just as Ranger has received.

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Originally Posted by CyberWasp

Yes, Ford had the Territory all lined up to be exported to Thailand after the signing of the Free Trade Agreement.
Then Thailand slapped Tariffs on the import of vehicles with engines over 3.0lt.

Who makes deals like this and says or does nothing.

All this country has ever needed is a government that actually works for the best interests of its people. I don't know who they work for but it not the people that vote here. Both sides are the same.

Something's not adding up here for me.

I just did some quick (read basic) searching and the DFAT website says this about Thailand's import taxes for Australian cars (a combination of two points to put it into the correct context):

Upon TAFTA's entry into force on 1 January 2005, Thailand immediately eliminated tariffs on large passenger motor vehicles (engine capacity of over 3000cc) and goods vehicles, previously at 80% and 60% respectively. For other passenger motor vehicles, Thailand immediately reduced the previous 80% tariff to 30%, before phasing this down by 6% each year to zero in 2010.

and yet this story in 2013 says that:

by the time local taxes that discourage the import of large-capacity engines and skew the market to locally built cars, the Territory sells in Thailand for about $AUD100,000, compared with less than $70,000 for the range-topping, feature-rich Titanium sold here with a turbo-diesel V6 powerplant.

Both of those can't be true (or at least, not at face value). Any one here know more info about this?

The reason I looked into it a little further is that, whilst the Thailand Australia Free Trade Agreement (TAFTA) may not have been good for our vehicle manufacturing businesses, the TAFTA would have to have been thought to bring us more benefits overall than it would have cost us, right? At least in theory. Practice may actually deliver something very different, of course.

[FTE217]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

The lack of response from the Howard Government at that time still burns me...they could have argued against it and instead the Thai government openly targeted local OEM suppliers to set up overseas. The Territory became similarly priced to a BMW X5 in Thailand and killed it's chances immediately. I think 100 were shipped over.

Just think, if they could have sold 500/month to Thailand and possibly same or more to South Africa, add NZ and some more RHD countries plus Australian sales and you could have had 5000 units built a month and maybe still ongoing production here with updates drawing on Ford's global tech just as Ranger has received.

DR, all due respect you or any of us have no clue what the backroom issues we're arising in the first place.
The Gov on one hand tries to build relations and business, on the other hand our beloved Ford US was and long before wanted to get out of here.
When the Thai Terri export deal was announced Falcon sales we're plummeting, what kind of feedback do you think our Gov was getting then, next thing Ford announced within weeks of the deal 440 line workers were being put off preparing to reduce output by 30%.
In the meantime Ford we're building the new Thai plant.
Ford was doing alot of reshuffling globally, be pretty hard for any Gov to turn the tide.
Ford switched Focus made in Germany to Thailand, Escape was heading to Thailand and low and behold Ranger.

So as mentioned we know nothing what really went on but in their position and reviewing I sure wouldn't have poured more $$$ or effort into a scenario that didn't look that promising long term.
That was 2012 Ford US had already laid their path long before the Terri Export HOPE, 2016 closure was set in stone in the boardroom so long ago it just couldn't come soon enough for them.

[XR Martin]

My understanding is that Thailand put some sneaky tax on the Territory which was a surprise to Ford Oz.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by arm79

Flipside question... Would the cars had been as good as they were if they had industry protection?

The reduction in tariffs was designed to foster competitiveness and engineering excellence. They were as good as they were because they had to compete with the world. But if they were the only thing affordable on the market there was a great chance they would be poorly developed lacklustre vehicles.

Pommie car manufacturing is a testament to that.

And say I that owning 2 piece of **** lemon BF vehicles.

There was a middle ground there somewhere, where the manufacturers needed to be more competitive, but also have enough of a tariff barrier to help protect them. They got more competitive, but by then the whole protection barrier was gone. The stupid thing was, that most other countries tariff barriers stayed in place, so they got screwed both ways.

The button plan should have been reviewed and re-evaluated every 5 years or something, not just a set and forget plan that ultimately killed the industry, because no one cared about reviewing it.

Originally Posted by FTE217

DR, all due respect you or any of us have no clue what the backroom issues we're arising in the first place.
The Gov on one hand tries to build relations and business, on the other hand our beloved Ford US was and long before wanted to get out of here.
When the Thai Terri export deal was announced Falcon sales we're plummeting, what kind of feedback do you think our Gov was getting then, next thing Ford announced within weeks of the deal 440 line workers were being put off preparing to reduce output by 30%.
In the meantime Ford we're building the new Thai plant.
Ford was doing alot of reshuffling globally, be pretty hard for any Gov to turn the tide.
Ford switched Focus made in Germany to Thailand, Escape was heading to Thailand and low and behold Ranger.

So as mentioned we know nothing what really went on but in their position and reviewing I sure wouldn't have poured more $$$ or effort into a scenario that didn't look that promising long term.
That was 2012 Ford US had already laid their path long before the Terri Export HOPE, 2016 closure was set in stone in the boardroom so long ago it just couldn't come soon enough for them.

Focus was supposed to be built here too. But that plan was also pulled.

The real nail in the coffin for Falcon was the GFC, cause that alone killed off the Global RWD platform that would have secured Falcon and Territory's future, or at least extended it, and allowed potential exports.

[Syndrome]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

Toyota was the only Aussie automaker which was financially viable post-GFC.

Both Ford & Holden were at the mercy of their US parents. Ford weren't permitted to build any LHD cars & therefore gain any real export marketing opportunities. GMH had huge export markets & were exporting more than 50% of there total production, but GM (US) took that off them during the GFC, replacing Aussie-built RWD cars with their FWD rubbish in those markets, leaving Holden the crumbs.

Toyota had no such constraints.

Result being that both had not enough volume sales to exist in such a small market.

Dr Terry

And once one of the US car makers decided to end Australian production the other was always very likely to follow.

Ford Australia to head office. "we need 1 billion dollars to update the Falcon". Head office "wouldn't it be cheaper to import a RHD version of one of our existing models?" FoA "but GM are doing it for the Holden. We have to compete with them". Head office "okay do it"

Holden to head office. "we need 1 billion dollars to update the Commodore". Head office "wouldn't it be cheaper to import a RHD version of one of our existing models? Holden "but Ford are doing it for the Falcon. We have to compete with them". Head office "okay do it"

[CyberWasp]

In regards to the Territory in Thailand, 7th October 2013

Writing for the Bangkok Post today, motoring news editor Richard Leu said fitting the Territory with the 2.7-litre turbo-diesel V6 instead of the 4.0-litre in-line six-cylinder engine shaved about $17,000 off the price tag, as the oil-burner attracted only a 40 per cent excise – the petrol version would have attracted a 50 per cent excise. Thai-built utes such as the Ford Ranger, Mazda BT50 and Holden Colorado attract only a 20 per cent excise.

https://www.goauto.com.au/news/ford/...-07/22496.html

I am not saying it would have been a run away success or would have saved Ford. It seems the vehicle was not to their tastes going by the article.

All I am saying is, an agreement is signed and our vehicles are slapped with a higher excise than the local ones.

We could have made Rangers here but then we would find that we couldn't export them to the USA because of their taxes.

Other countries governments seem to stick up for their locals more than ours do. Once again not picking on either side but in general

[b0son]

Originally Posted by CyberWasp

Writing for the Bangkok Post today, motoring news editor Richard Leu said fitting the Territory with the 2.7-litre turbo-diesel V6 instead of the 4.0-litre in-line six-cylinder engine shaved about $17,000 off the price tag, as the oil-burner attracted only a 40 per cent excise – the petrol version would have attracted a 50 per cent excise. Thai-built utes such as the Ford Ranger, Mazda BT50 and Holden Colorado attract only a 20 per cent excise.

This was the scam. The tarriffs were reduced, but nobody here expected the cars to be slapped with an excise instead, which doesnt appear to have been accounted for under the FTA.

[Sprintey]

10 years on we get to be the only OECD top 20 economy without a car industry, iirc.

What did we get for losing the industry? 35K top spec Yaris. 40+K top spec Corolla (lol).

Defence policy has supported manufacturing, particularly in SA, so there's that.

And shoutout to HSV's line which I think is modifying the big US pick ups and running 24/7 - manufacturing surviving here. Also mention Nissan making electric motors in Dandenong.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

10 years on we get to be the only OECD top 20 economy without a car industry, iirc.

If you exclude startups not yet in production, or small-scale niche product, there are several other countries without manufacturing. Either they are large economies, manufacturing in large scale, or countries with comparatively low wages, making on behalf of those larger nations.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

10 years on we get to be the only OECD top 20 economy without a car industry, iirc.

What did we get for losing the industry? 35K top spec Yaris. 40+K top spec Corolla (lol).

Defence policy has supported manufacturing, particularly in SA, so there's that.

And shoutout to HSV's line which I think is modifying the big US pick ups and running 24/7 - manufacturing surviving here. Also mention Nissan making electric motors in Dandenong.

And Kenworth trucks since 1971 with no subsidies.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

And Kenworth trucks since 1971 with no subsidies.

The subsidies arent applied at the manufacturing level, they're applied at the usage level. You can bet we'd still be driving falcadores if we were getting subsidised fuel for aussie cars.

[Franco Cozzo]

We had an attempt here from Vietnamese car manufacturer Vinfast, then they randomly pulled out of the country completely.

We've got defence manufacturing, I reckon Thales should do a civilian version of the Ute variant of the Hawkei.

[Ford Falcon XR6]

Simple solution would have been to heavily tax all overseas made cars. And redirect that tax money to locally build the cars people wanted at affordable prices. The import taxes on foreign made car could have been used to sustainably subsidise our higher manufacturing costs.
But that would affect the mega profits of the big manufacturers and our government would never step on the toes of big corporations. We live in a world ruled by the super wealthy and their corporations governments are puppet who push their agendas. Manufacturing well made products in Australia reduces profits so we don’t do it plain and simple. Not just us who miss out the countries who do manufacture pay their workers stuff all for long hours in poor conditions. We are still more fortunate then them…

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by b0son

The subsidies arent applied at the manufacturing level, they're applied at the usage level. You can bet we'd still be driving falcadores if we were getting subsidised fuel for aussie cars.

WTF are you talking about. The manufacturer doesn't get it.

[Franco Cozzo]

My idea was they should have done two things:

Novated leases - only on Australian manufactured cars
Government fleets - had to be Australian manufactured trucks/cars
Registration discounts for Australian made cars for everyone (free for first three years, then at the health care card rate afterwards)

That way you incentivised them at a consumer level,

Thats actually three things but we'll pretend its only two.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

My idea was they should have done two things:

Novated leases - only on Australian manufactured cars
Government fleets - had to be Australian manufactured trucks/cars
Registration discounts for Australian made cars for everyone (free for first three years, then at the health care card rate afterwards)

That way you incentivised them at a consumer level,

Thats actually three things but we'll pretend its only two.

You think that would have been a requirement.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

You think that would have been a requirement.

I know right, someone else summed it up perfectly when they mentioned our government isn't working for our own interests or something along those lines.

I mentioned that Thales should make a civilian version of the ute variant of their Hawkei,

This is what I'm referring to:







This thing is manufactured in Bendigo

Its basically VDJ79 on roids, maybe make the tray a bit bigger and take out all the military stuff, it would fit under LR category I reckon.

They can make 2x a day under full rate production on their Bendigo production line I think, I had to go up there, investigate all our stock and rectify the stuff that was made wrong on their premesis.

They gave me a tour of all the production facilities and the maintenance for my troubles

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I know right, someone else summed it up perfectly when they mentioned our government isn't working for our own interests or something along those lines.

I mentioned that Thales should make a civilian version of the ute variant of their Hawkei,

This is what I'm referring to:

image

image

image

Its basically VDJ79 on roids, maybe make the tray a bit bigger and take out all the military stuff, it would fit under LR category I reckon.

They can make 2x a day under full rate production on their Bendigo production line I think, I had to go up there, investigate all our stock and rectify the stuff that was made wrong on their premesis.

They gave me a tour of all the production facilities and the maintenance for my troubles

It looks a little wide.....bonnets a waste of space.
and the usual no one would buy that, and there's no room in underground car parks.
I would just like a manufacturer to build a cabover Australian truck of about 6 tons payload. You know like ACCO/RFW used to build.

Failing that a short nose T180.

[anobserver]

The factories here could only build what head office allowed them to.

When Foa built a credible threat to the explorer, it was blocked from export and suffered the lag (sorry) in homologating a diesel. Then we got the ancient single turbo engine that was cheaply licensed.

The Commodore was exported to the us, but seemingly wasn't supported and didn't do well. Positive reviews didn't translate to sales.

Another big issue was global overcapacity. The smaller factories here weren't capable of building in big numbers, and transitioning to a service economy meant it was more profitable to shift manufacturing elsewhere.

Add to that the loss of fleet sales, loss of taxi sales, novated leasing allowing increased vehicle choice, unnecessary govt hostility towards jobs, apathy at protective tariffs, and now we have the 35k Corolla and 70k Hilux/Ranger.

The Button plan was a little too successful.

We could have demanded suvs and dual cabs be built here instead. But buying and selling houses to each other (fuelled by the immigration ponzi scheme) is much more profitable for the Triguboffs and Norman's of the world.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

It looks a little wide.....bonnets a waste of space.
and the usual no one would buy that, and there's no room in underground car parks.
I would just like a manufacturer to build a cabover Australian truck of about 6 tons payload. You know like ACCO/RFW used to build.

Failing that a short nose T180.

The closest thing you'll get to the T180 in our market is the GAZ Sadko Next - except the sanctions on Russia put an end to that before it even got started

[roKWiz]

Thanks so much World Trade Organization.

Pity we couldn't stick to being self sufficient, yeah, yeah I know all the bs reasons we have to be a global trading partner only thing is we a constantly being screwed over.

I really don't need a Chinese made cat crapper but an Aussie vehicle would be nice.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

WTF are you talking about. The manufacturer doesn't get it.

No, but subsidizing the fuel that goes into them encourages their continued use, which encourages their sales. Remove that, and maybe a lot of stuff that could go by train, would.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by b0son

No, but subsidizing the fuel that goes into them encourages their continued use, which encourages their sales. Remove that, and maybe a lot of stuff that could go by train, would.

I don't think they deliver your Woolworth's order to your door by train.

Everything you own came in a truck.

[Ford Falcon XR6]

Originally Posted by anobserver

The factories here could only build what head office allowed them to.


We could have demanded suvs and dual cabs be built here instead. But buying and selling houses to each other (fuelled by the immigration ponzi scheme) is much more profitable for the Triguboffs and Norman's of the world.

This is spot on we just get fed the same regurgitated lie by the mainstream media that local manufacturing ended because we weren’t buying the cars we built. None of these “independent” journalists ever put the question to the manufacturers why don’t we then make the cars people are buying. They just shift the blame onto the peasants.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

I don't think they deliver your Woolworth's order to your door by train.

Everything you own came in a truck.

Also the lead time on deliveries would be significantly worse if you switched to moving the bulk of freight interstate by rail.

It's good for moving bulk goods like minerals and wheat and that sort of stuff but general freight I don't think it would work really well that the consumer would put up with it.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Also the lead time on deliveries would be significantly worse if you switched to moving the bulk of freight interstate by rail.

It's good for moving bulk goods like minerals and wheat and that sort of stuff but general freight I don't think it would work really well that the consumer would put up with it.

I can remember good ol Vicfast parcel by rail, they lost on average 40% of the stuff they were suppose to deliver.
Anyone remember the story of the Corvette going missing from one of their depots ?

Though I reckon bulk car carrying from the ports would be ideal for trains.

I'll be keeping an eye on the uptake as I live next to the main line of the inland rail route. I count around 4 interstate freights train through here on average each way per day.

[Charliewool]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Thanks so much World Trade Organization.

Pity we couldn't stick to being self sufficient, yeah, yeah I know all the bs reasons we have to be a global trading partner only thing is we a constantly being screwed over.

I really don't need a Chinese made cat crapper but an Aussie vehicle would be nice.

Self sufficient? Lol… Build our own vehicles? Ha Ha!
Can’t even build our own oil filters in Australia anymore!

When the “biggie” begins (and it WILL!)
Watch us fold!..
Our reserves of fuel…
Petrol.. 24 days from 1 July 2023. Increasing to 27 days in 2024.
Diesel fuel.. 20 days from 1 July 2023.
Look at virtually any item on the supermarket shelves!… Made in Australia?? Nope! All now imported!
(Not that we can afford to buy much anyhow, I spose?)

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Charliewool

Self sufficient? Lol… Build our own vehicles? Ha Ha!
Can’t even build our own oil filters in Australia anymore!

When the “biggie” begins (and it WILL!)
Watch us fold!..
Our reserves of fuel…
Petrol.. 24 days from 1 July 2023. Increasing to 27 days in 2024.
Diesel fuel.. 20 days from 1 July 2023.
Look at virtually any item on the supermarket shelves!… Made in Australia?? Nope! All now imported!
(Not that we can afford to buy much anyhow, I spose?)

Or nails ??? Yes now, but not then, when we didn't have WTO controlling everything we now do.
No wonder England got out of the European BS.
If we want a level playing field for all free trade between every country why not introduce a world currency as well, dollar for dollar.
Why have currency exchange on goods.

Covid really opened our eyes to how vulnerable we really are to outside control of our industries.

As for this I find plenty in IGA, another reason not to give all your money to ColesWorth who just love big import companies they do deals with.

Just because you don't see it, it doesn't mean it not available.

Even the soy milk I drink is made only 30kms away locally in Baranduda (not delivered by train.)

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

If we want a level playing field for all free trade between every country why not introduce a world currency as well, dollar for dollar.

We do, every time you buy something from a Chinese supplier, you need to pay for it in USD

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Covid really opened our eyes to how vulnerable we really are to outside control of our industries.

I don't think it did, because nothing has been done to shore up our supply chain, the wiper blades, arms and electronic control system controlling that wiper system on that Thales Hawkei come from China.

All that happened was everyone jumped up and down, sent angry emails then went back to normal when supply from overseas increased again and back to offshoring everything to save a couple dollars here and there.