Future of Targa rallies in doubt

[Rallye Sport]

Following on from another tragic death in Tasmania this year Motorsport Australia is putting a hold on targa rallies being sanctioned by them.

"While many competitors acknowledge that motorsport is dangerous, we cannot accept that death is an outcome of competition as has been suggested to us,"

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-05-...gate/101070122

Although this may not spell the end for Targa Tasmania it could be a very different style of event in the future.

[Franco Cozzo]

Newsflash - Motorsport is dangerous.

[fiestaz]

One day, we will all end up sitting at home not allowed to do anything incase we die…

Sit around waiting or die trying.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by fiestaz

One day, we will all end up sitting at home not allowed to do anything incase we die…

Sit around waiting or die trying.

Sounds exactly like 2020 and 2021 in Victoria

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Rallye Sport

Although this may not spell the end for Targa Tasmania it could be a very different style of event in the future.

There'll be a speed limit...

[Rallye Sport]

Originally Posted by b0son

There'll be a speed limit...

Or a regularity / dial your own time style event.

[Tassie f100]

Originally Posted by b0son

There'll be a speed limit...

Pretty sure there were speed limits set after last years 3 fatalities

[GasoLane]

It's a good thing that CAMS/Motorsport Australia don't sanction the Isle of Man TT

[Citroënbender]

Shhh… Nanny Government will ban Aussies from travelling to spectate, and criminalise its viewing.

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by GasoLane

It's a good thing that CAMS/Motorsport Australia don't sanction the Isle of Man TT

it is a good thing that CAMS/Motorsport Australia has a competitor in that market, AASA was started by Bob Jane (Calder) Mick Ronke (Winton) and John Tetley (Qld Raceway) to give CAMS/Motorsport Australia some competition. AASA was (last I heard) sanctioning more events than CAMS/Motorsport Australia.

AASA is still around and very busy sanctioning events, they were doing some tarmac rallies in the past, I am not sure if they still do. I guess a check of their website would tell me

EDIT: Yes there is mention of 'tarmac rallies' on their web page

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by Rallye Sport

Or a regularity / dial your own time style event.

which are very competitive events, I have competed in quite a few 'regularity' race events

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

it is a good thing that CAMS/Motorsport Australia has a competitor in that market, AASA was started by Bob Jane (Calder) Mick Ronke (Winton) and John Tetley (Qld Raceway) to give CAMS/Motorsport Australia some competition. AASA was (last I heard) sanctioning more events than CAMS/Motorsport Australia.

AASA is still around and very busy sanctioning events, they were doing some tarmac rallies in the past, I am not sure if they still do. I guess a check of their website would tell me

EDIT: Yes there is mention of 'tarmac rallies' on their web page

We run events under both permits but mostly under MA given we have had a fatality on track and their Insurance covered us very well (family of the driver tried to sue all of us even though they signed their waiver). Haven't tested AASA just yet (though I wish we didn't have to test it ever) and waiting to see how someone else goes in the unfortunate event. Not sure if they can do a Targa level event just yet.

Big fan of what AASA do though I do have some reservations on some of their processes (too relaxed with safety at times)! I hate the monopoly that CAMS/MA had. Was about to be part of an executive level at MA but they throw the book at you if you attend a AASA event (as what happened to one person a couple of years ago). Had to step down from there because of that.

The problem Targa had is that they were given recommendations that they didn't put into play. Thats what has come back to bite them.

[Polyal]

I am lost for words for this, at what point do we start fighting back?

True, this style of motorsport is probably one of the more dangerous but everyone signs up for it.

Im not privy to what Targa has and hasnt done and if they had recommendations to follow and didnt after 3 deaths then thats not a good look.

But, where does it end? Hill climbs or any other event not at a dedicated circuit?

[Franco Cozzo]

Anyone who raced at AFF Heathcote (I don't think me and the 14 second + crew count as 'racing' as much as a leisurely Sunday drive ) would have signed the very faded piece of paper that basically says 'if you stack your car and die its not our fault - autograph here please'

I think I might still have the ticket thing they give you which also clearly states 'motorsport in dangerous'.

I think it comes with the territory, if they start legislating away at Targa Tasmania then its the death warrant for it, if anything we don't have enough outlets where you can do these types on events, motorsport itself has become a very niche (and frowned upon) hobby and its not getting any easier for us plebs to get involved.

If you make it too hard and push everyone away I reckon you're just encouraging stuff like 'Northern Skids' to pop up as a result.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Anyone who raced at AFF Heathcote (I don't think me and the 14 second + crew count as 'racing' as much as a leisurely Sunday drive ) would have signed the very faded piece of paper that basically says 'if you stack your car and die its not our fault - autograph here please'

I think I might still have the ticket thing they give you which also clearly states 'motorsport in dangerous'.

I think it comes with the territory, if they start legislating away at Targa Tasmania then its the death warrant for it, if anything we don't have enough outlets where you can do these types on events, motorsport itself has become a very niche (and frowned upon) hobby and its not getting any easier for us plebs to get involved.

If you make it too hard and push everyone away I reckon you're just encouraging stuff like 'Northern Skids' to pop up as a result.

We are about to lose one of our tracks around Sydney due to noise regs. People moved in next to the track them complained about the noise. They are down to just 30 days of trading a year and no more than 90 dB which is a joke. People have moved their exhausts to the other side to prevent tripping the meter.

EVs might get to use the track but there are so few EVs on track at the moment and it would be a sad day if we can't get ICE on that track.

Killing the sport and making SMSP a monopoly in the Sydney area so they can charge whatever fees they want to hire the track or compete at it.

Use to be $80-$110 for a track day there till a certain club took over proceedings... Went to $250 overnight and then to $350. Such a joke.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by kypez

We are about to lose one of our tracks around Sydney due to noise regs. People moved in next to the track them complained about the noise. They are down to just 30 days of trading a year and no more than 90 dB which is a joke. People have moved their exhausts to the other side to prevent tripping the meter.

EVs might get to use the track but there are so few EVs on track at the moment and it would be a sad day if we can't get ICE on that track.

Killing the sport and making SMSP a monopoly in the Sydney area so they can charge whatever fees they want to hire the track or compete at it.

Use to be $80-$110 for a track day there till a certain club took over proceedings... Went to $250 overnight and then to $350. Such a joke.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

Its the same thing with Essendon Airport, Sandown Raceway and Calder Park here in Melbourne, where entire suburbs popped up around them, then the people who buy in there at cheap prices complain about the noise, these people have a vested interest in these things disappearing because the values of their properties will go up if these venues make like a tree and leave.

Thats another hidden consequence of asset/house prices being so high it gets to a point where you start losing entire industries when they're sitting on large commercial properties which can be rezoned as high density residential at a stroke of a pen.

Whoever owns SMSP - whats the value of the property they occupy? Surely they'll get to a point where their extortion prices push people away then they go oh well now we turn into houses.

Who is that cricketer who died from being hit by the ball? Maybe we should stop all cricket games because its 'dangerous'.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Whoever owns SMSP - whats the value of the property they occupy? Surely they'll get to a point where their extortion prices push people away then they go oh well now we turn into houses.



Who is that cricketer who died from being hit by the ball? Maybe we should stop all cricket games because its 'dangerous'.

It's owned by the State Gov but operated by a club who have exclusive rights to the circuit.

Phil Hughes

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[Polyal]

Originally Posted by kypez

We are about to lose one of our tracks around Sydney due to noise regs. People moved in next to the track them complained about the noise. They are down to just 30 days of trading a year and no more than 90 dB which is a joke. People have moved their exhausts to the other side to prevent tripping the meter.

EVs might get to use the track but there are so few EVs on track at the moment and it would be a sad day if we can't get ICE on that track.

Killing the sport and making SMSP a monopoly in the Sydney area so they can charge whatever fees they want to hire the track or compete at it.

Use to be $80-$110 for a track day there till a certain club took over proceedings... Went to $250 overnight and then to $350. Such a joke.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

To be fair I am about to sign up to a track day club and its $300 a go, which I actually thought was reasonable considering the next to zero safety gear I need.

Car has to pass inspection and I need a helmet, then I am on my way to understeering into a corner and hoping my standard seat belt and airbag help....how does that work.

We are all preaching to the converted here, but, step by step insurance companies and nannies are taking things away. I just dont know how we turn around and say you know what, f you, I am doing it anyway.

I dont know the specifics of these crashes but you can have a soft roll over and still end up dead if you hit the right thing.

This burns me, Targa like any race has had deaths but you look at the history and really its as dangerous as anything else and no amount of money or skill can save you sometimes.

Bah!

Another case of corporate needing to look like they are doing something and its to hard to use logic or facts.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Polyal

To be fair I am about to sign up to a track day club and its $300 a go, which I actually thought was reasonable considering the next to zero safety gear I need.

Car has to pass inspection and I need a helmet, then I am on my way to understeering into a corner and hoping my standard seat belt and airbag help....how does that work.

We are all preaching to the converted here, but, step by step insurance companies and nannies are taking things away. I just dont know how we turn around and say you know what, f you, I am doing it anyway.

I dont know the specifics of these crashes but you can have a soft roll over and still end up dead if you hit the right thing.

This burns me, Targa like any race has had deaths but you look at the history and really its as dangerous as anything else and no amount of money or skill can save you sometimes.

Bah!

Another case of corporate needing to look like they are doing something and its to hard to use logic or facts.

What will happen is it will just happen on the suburban streets, you already see it occurring more and more in Melbourne in particular, we've seen some pretty decent offences happen recently in the past few months and over the past year.

There you go, now you have no fire team, no medical staff, no track facilities and on public roads that aren't closed where there is risk of people minding their own business getting caught up in accidents - all because they incentivised it by making it too hard to do the right thing.

With motorsport, the danger is one of the attractions to it as a participant or a spectator, that feeling of living on the edge of control, or with NASCAR watching someone strap themselves into a brick and do 300km/h around a circle with 50 other people and when one stacks it takes out half the field.

You know as a participant in these things its dangerous and what the risks are, you just make a judgement call on it, let the people who knowingly participate do what they do and make the events as accessible as possible rather than going the other way.

People are going to do something they want regardless, you might as well as give them the best chance and place to do it and make it easy to access, its basic human nature.

[Rallye Sport]

I don't think we'll be seeing any 'outlaw' Targa style events popping up in the industrial areas on a Thursday night
They're just taking a step back at the moment to assess it.

They banned Group B rallying back in the 80's, it didn't stop the sport, they didn't take to the streets, it just evolved into something else.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Rallye Sport

I don't think we'll be seeing any 'outlaw' Targa style events popping up in the industrial areas on a Thursday night
They're just taking a step back at the moment to assess it.

They banned Group B rallying back in the 80's, it didn't stop the sport, they didn't take to the streets, it just evolved into something else.

I'm not saying it'll be a targa event, it'll be this which already goes on:



The more you take away and make it harder for the proper options the more you incentivise the above.

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by kypez

We run events under both permits but mostly under MA given we have had a fatality on track and their Insurance covered us very well (family of the driver tried to sue all of us even though they signed their waiver). Haven't tested AASA just yet (though I wish we didn't have to test it ever) and waiting to see how someone else goes in the unfortunate event. Not sure if they can do a Targa level event just yet.

Big fan of what AASA do though I do have some reservations on some of their processes (too relaxed with safety at times)! I hate the monopoly that CAMS/MA had. Was about to be part of an executive level at MA but they throw the book at you if you attend a AASA event (as what happened to one person a couple of years ago). Had to step down from there because of that.

The problem Targa had is that they were given recommendations that they didn't put into play. Thats what has come back to bite them.

AASA did the Mt Buffalo one a few times, I know they did a S.A. one which had a big claim

For yeasrs V8Supercar teams used AASA sanctioning for testing

When I was involved both AASA and CAMS were using the same insurance underwritter

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

AASA did the Mt Buffalo one a few times, I know they did a S.A. one which had a big claim

For yeasrs V8Supercar teams used AASA sanctioning for testing

When I was involved both AASA and CAMS were using the same insurance underwritter

Not at the moment that I could see; different underwriters unless its changed again since I last looked at it.

I'm happy to use AASA; their permits are cheaper too. At the moment, I'm locked into hosting the State Supersprint Series which is a MA product with our club so its all MA. However, when we used to partake in the InterClub, we ran AASA.

Our come and try days, track days, etc, are run under AASA.

[Tassie f100]

Originally Posted by kypez

Not at the moment that I could see; different underwriters unless its changed again since I last looked at it.

I'm happy to use AASA; their permits are cheaper too. At the moment, I'm locked into hosting the State Supersprint Series which is a MA product with our club so its all MA. However, when we used to partake in the InterClub, we ran AASA.

Our come and try days, track days, etc, are run under AASA.

What was the outcome of the family seeing your group.As I understand most waivers aren’t really legal in that they are basically a bluff to stop sueing

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Tassie f100

What was the outcome of the family seeing your group.As I understand most waivers aren’t really legal in that they are basically a bluff to stop sueing

Good Question. CAMS (at the time) and their insurance/lawyers took it to court. It was a very long and drawn out process but in the end, it didn't cost the club a cent and we all kept our houses (the lawsuit was for several million dollars). Can't remember if there was any financial settlement but I doubt that happened. Out of goodness, they didn't look to recover court costs either in the end.

I felt sad for the family... It would be heartbreaking for them and it was for us to lose someone at the track at one of our events. But Motorsport is dangerous... We all accept that risk when we get on track.

[Rallye Sport]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I'm not saying it'll be a targa event, it'll be this which already goes on:



The more you take away and make it harder for the proper options the more you incentivise the above.

As you say already goes on, has done for years.
Any motorsport reforms won't lead to real racers taking to the street, hasn't in the past and wont in the future, but lets not let that get in the way of some old fashioned sensationalism

[hawke]

“To be fair I am about to sign up to a track day club and its $300 a go, which I actually thought was reasonable considering the next to zero safety gear I need”.

I’m doing a practice day at Winton next week for $190, and the remaining race weekend for $350. A few weeks ago, I did a whole day at SMSP for $190.

Where do you pay $350 for a day?

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Rallye Sport

As you say already goes on, has done for years.
Any motorsport reforms won't lead to real racers taking to the street, hasn't in the past and wont in the future, but lets not let that get in the way of some old fashioned sensationalism

Fake racers still kill themselves, so stop incentivising people to become fake racers by taking away opportunities or putting barriers in the way to be a 'real racer'.

Its also never been to the extent it happens now in Melbourne, the rules are harsher than ever but its still happening, maybe there's a reason for it.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by hawke

“To be fair I am about to sign up to a track day club and its $300 a go, which I actually thought was reasonable considering the next to zero safety gear I need”.

I’m doing a practice day at Winton next week for $190, and the remaining race weekend for $350. A few weeks ago, I did a whole day at SMSP for $190.

Where do you pay $350 for a day?

SMSP standard rate for a track day for non members is typically $350

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

[Rallye Sport]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Fake racers still kill themselves, so stop incentivising people to become fake racers by taking away opportunities or putting barriers in the way to be a 'real racer'.

Its also never been to the extent it happens now in Melbourne, the rules are harsher than ever but its still happening, maybe there's a reason for it.

No opportunities are being taken away.
I've been through regulation changes. When we were told fit intrusion bars we did so. Too loud? Fit another muffler. No one ever pushed the civil liberties barrow or ended up taking it to the streets.
Barriers are the same as hurdles, made to be jumped, just depends on how much you want it.