Wire or Concrete

[AC]

Being on nights over the weekend i didnt get to see much or/any the news.
But this morning i see this...

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegrap...28-421,00.html



Im not sure how much or if the wire barrier fence contributed to the guys death or not, but i know while i was on 2 wheels these wire barrier fence's gave me a bit of concern about what might happen if you were to come off going down the motor way or any newly upgraded road. Those wire barrier fence's would rip through anything, even metal at any half decent speed.

So i ask you all.
What you prefer, Wire... Or Concrete?

Opinions on the wire barrier fences ?

[Ringo]

Wire - at least it absorbs some of the impact.

This is tragic stereotypical accident. Young person + High Performance Car = Accident of some sort and don't the papers just love it.

[FPV GT]

Its six of one, half a dozen of the other.
As for a bike, I would suspect either one would not be good.

Regards
Paul

[The Monty]

Id rather the concrete. I wouldnt like to hit either on a bike, but if it were the wire, and an arm or leg went through as you went past a post, it would rip it clean off. Id rather solid concrete barriers along the sides and middle of every highway in Australia.

[Interceptor]

my preference is for well maintained armco

[Paull]

My preference would be keep clear of both!

[gtfpv]

DO YOU THINK BETTER PREVENTION WOULD BE NO 12 HOUR MIDNIGHT SHIFTS?? perhaps the concrete would've produced the same result .

but i think a better argumant would not be youth or speed or the type of barrier . road safety has a lot to do with our lifestyle .

[Keepleft]

Wire rope barrier is the 'softest' barrier method.

In this example, the vehicle was reportedly 'at high speed'. Typically a car is captured by wire rope, or minimally deflected. Many variables including speed etc.

Had the barrier not been installed, the vehicle would have in all likelihood crossed into opposing lanes, certainly better to have a crash, or series of them, going in the one direction, rather than the alternative offset/head-on type.

Traditional steel guardrail remains banned in 7 of the US states (2002). 'Jersey', the concrete barrier item leading this poll is minimally used at critical points only, including where the median is 0.5-1.0 metres, eg F6 South.

In the US, wire rope systems are replacing both and are being installed to new interstate system mendians. They will not prevent all crossovers, but do reduce the total number dramatically.

No barrier system is failsafe. Motorcyclist 'fears' with wire-rope systems are generally unfounded. This group represents typically 2.2% of total registrations and perhaps comprise a generous maximum 10% of all travel. Try though you might, you cannot achieve a cheese-cutter effect on 'cable'. The British parapet safety folk at the UK highways agency advise they are yet to have a fatal with their Brifen barrier in over 30 years of use.

Australia uses two types (brands), each competes in this market and each has certain characteristics.

Make no mistake, calls to raise speed-limits on undivided freeway-length roads will not be actioned - unless the road has full length median barrier, as in that rotten Europe (again:-) where the lessons of integrated high-speed travel are learned.

Brifen OZ:
http://www.brifen.com.au/
Brifen World:
http://www.brifen.com/
Brifen US:
http://www.brifenusa.com/
Brifen UK:
http://www.brifen.co.uk/
Suid Afrika:
http://www.highwaysafety.co.za/

AUS alternative barriers:
http://www.ingalcivil.com.au/index.php

Now, it doesn't take much engineering effort for the road authorities to placate motorcyclists:-
http://www.ingalcivil.com.au/products.php?id=11&leaf=y
Another way of achieving similar is to allow the planting of low height native shrubbery to 'soften 'the install AND resultant impacts.

Funding funding funding $$$. Dammit, - we need MORE DOLLARS!

[4Vman]

My preference is to drive safely and not need either and keep it on the black stuff...

[FORD3V]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

My preference is to drive safely and not need either and keep it on the black stuff...

Im pretty sure that would be everybodys preference,But unfortunately accidants happen.

[MAGPIE]

I've seen cars go straight through those wire barriers and collide with vehicles coming the other way, so what's the point !

Concrete is far superior imo

[S3SR]

i voted concrete..... but there should have been those steel barriers too as an option

firstly wire is like a cheese grater for a bike rider
secondly high tensile... would it cause serious injury when it snaps? i dunno to be honest

concrete is good at certain speeds but on highways itll do more damage then good

steel barriers .... arent they around most highways anyway..... and most of the impacts are absorbed

a combination of all of them in certain places would be ideal

[AnthonyQLD]

My vote is for concrete

[Fairlane]

Preference for Steel Armco here and concrete in vital locations. Dont like the plastic wire barriers one bit.

Suppose they are better than the Wooden post/chicken wire still found on a lot of rural roads.

[eldreamin]

Being a motorcyclist as well means that the steel wire really does worry me. I just see it as being more dangerous than concrete. I just think that the impact of a human body spread out over a greater flat area rather than a concentrated area seems better to me.

ALTHOUGH my preference is also to stay on the road and hit nothing.

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by S3SR

i voted concrete..... but there should have been those steel barriers too as an option

firstly wire is like a cheese grater for a bike rider
secondly high tensile... would it cause serious injury when it snaps? i dunno to be honest.

You write, chatter but take nothing in.

The guardrails are used, in places and situations.

Originally Posted by MAGPIE

I've seen cars go straight through those wire barriers and collide with vehicles coming the other way, so what's the point !

Concrete is far superior imo

I know of one incident in QLD, where was your example?

What brand?

NB - I have NO shares or relationship with any manufacturer.

[MAGPIE]

Originally Posted by Keepleft

I know of one incident in QLD, where was your example?

What brand?

NB - I have NO shares or relationship with any manufacturer.

AKL, NZ

NFI, looking for the brand name was the last thing on my mind

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by MAGPIE

AKL, NZ

NFI, looking for the brand name was the last thing on my mind

Okay, take into account the kilometres where the barrier is installed. let me then 'imagine' we have had twenty trucks crossing the barrier and killing your local MP each time. This figure would still be damned good.

The question is then - how many 'impacts' has the barrier had and in doing so prevented crossover events?? Rem a 'road death' is put at A$2,3m now according to BTRE.

I can tell you 'heaps', certainly on the F3 section in a given year. RTA don't count impacts per se such is the number.

At the end of the day, this stuff, for the majority of traffic is the softest option.

We HAVE had more fatalities with Jersey than with wire-rope despite having more kilometres of wire-rope installed.

Each 'system' has its value, none is overlooked and again, none is failsafe.

[MAGPIE]

Originally Posted by Keepleft

Okay, take into account the kilometres where the barrier is installed. let me then 'imagine' we have had twenty trucks crossing the barrier and killing your local MP each time. This figure would still be damned good.

I was talking about cars going through them not trucks, if a small 4 door jap sedan can go through it then across four lanes and into armco what is the point, put a proper concrete barrier in place.

My guess is it's down to cost as per usual.

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by MAGPIE

I was talking about cars going through them not trucks, if a small 4 door jap sedan can go through it then across four lanes and into armco what is the point, put a proper concrete barrier in place.

My guess is it's down to cost as per usual.

My QLD example was a semi trailer (fatal with opposing traffic cars). Find a link to this 'car' event you highlight if you can, I'd like to see it. If you mean to say a car rolled over the barrier, then that might be feasible, or if the car impacted an already previously impacted barrier length. That said, we've had cars cartwheel along the jersey median on the F3 at the Hawkesbury River Bridge (Torana, a fatality) and trucks 'punch' through and over it. A WRX a year or so punched a hole in jersey at Bulli, killing the driver.

Guardrail tends to be flattened, wire rope catches em. Again, each system has its merits, but the reality is road authorities prefer to use wire-rope systems, followed by guardrail then the last resort, jersey.

[fordxrtfan]

IMO I would say concrete rather than the wire only cause I've seen firsthand what a mess it makes of a human - not to say concrete wouldnt injure someone but I'm sure concrete would enable a person to keep more limbs! (Just my opinion though)
BUT each system does have its own merits

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by FORD3V

Im pretty sure that would be everybodys preference,But unfortunately accidants happen.

I dont like the word "accident" because it implies "no ones at fault" but Yes... baring vehicle mechanical failure barriers are there to protect the innocent from the stupid..

[Vdouw]

I hit a metal guard rail sideways at about 130km/h at point of impact. I prefer that the most. Concrete though is designed to stop the car from both bouncing off or going over into oncoming traffic and the car takes most of that impact. Wire is designed to catch the car and the post should snap off. So they are all safe but i do agree that if you hit it hard enough, wire will start to cut into the car a fare bit but hey if you hit it at that great speed
A) your going so fast its doesn't matter what you hit
B) Your car is quick and you should be taking it to the track to find out how quick
C) YOUR AN IDIOT LIKE ME

[mcnews]

Originally Posted by Keepleft

Wire rope barrier is the 'softest' barrier method.

In this example, the vehicle was reportedly 'at high speed'. Typically a car is captured by wire rope, or minimally deflected. Many variables including speed etc.

Had the barrier not been installed, the vehicle would have in all likelihood crossed into opposing lanes, certainly better to have a crash, or series of them, going in the one direction, rather than the alternative offset/head-on type.

Traditional steel guardrail remains banned in 7 of the US states (2002). 'Jersey', the concrete barrier item leading this poll is minimally used at critical points only, including where the median is 0.5-1.0 metres, eg F6 South.

In the US, wire rope systems are replacing both and are being installed to new interstate system mendians. They will not prevent all crossovers, but do reduce the total number dramatically.

No barrier system is failsafe. Motorcyclist 'fears' with wire-rope systems are generally unfounded. This group represents typically 2.2% of total registrations and perhaps comprise a generous maximum 10% of all travel. Try though you might, you cannot achieve a cheese-cutter effect on 'cable'. The British parapet safety folk at the UK highways agency advise they are yet to have a fatal with their Brifen barrier in over 30 years of use.

Australia uses two types (brands), each competes in this market and each has certain characteristics.

Make no mistake, calls to raise speed-limits on undivided freeway-length roads will not be actioned - unless the road has full length median barrier, as in that rotten Europe (again:-) where the lessons of integrated high-speed travel are learned.

Brifen OZ:
http://www.brifen.com.au/
Brifen World:
http://www.brifen.com/
Brifen US:
http://www.brifenusa.com/
Brifen UK:
http://www.brifen.co.uk/
Suid Afrika:
http://www.highwaysafety.co.za/

AUS alternative barriers:
http://www.ingalcivil.com.au/index.php

Now, it doesn't take much engineering effort for the road authorities to placate motorcyclists:-
http://www.ingalcivil.com.au/products.php?id=11&leaf=y
Another way of achieving similar is to allow the planting of low height native shrubbery to 'soften 'the install AND resultant impacts.

Funding funding funding $$$. Dammit, - we need MORE DOLLARS!

The wire rope barriers have been banned and their removal enforced in some countries and there are moves for them to be banned throughout the whole European Union. The countries which haven't removed them often cover them with a plastic barrier which protects motorcyclists. They are a pox on our roads and anybody with an IQ in double digits can see what they mean to a motorcyclist. Concrete barriers are much friendlier to us, as we hit and slide rather than hit then have an arm ripped off, a leg ripped off and then our heads ripped off.

[FORD3V]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I dont like the word "accident" because it implies "no ones at fault" but Yes... baring vehicle mechanical failure barriers are there to protect the innocent from the stupid..

Usually when a vehicle collides with another object it is called an accident,sorry you dont like my terminology,we dont live in a perfect world and for whatever reason "accidents" do occur.

[AC]

Originally Posted by mcnews

The wire rope barriers have been banned and their removal enforced in some countries and there are moves for them to be banned throughout the whole European Union. The countries which haven't removed them often cover them with a plastic barrier which protects motorcyclists. They are a pox on our roads and anybody with an IQ in double digits can see what they mean to a motorcyclist. Concrete barriers are much friendlier to us, as we hit and slide rather than hit then have an arm ripped off, a leg ripped off and then our heads ripped off.

Obviously you are/were a two wheeled terrorist like myself :evil3:
Me, formerly one for the moment until i can get a Busa :
Was a sad day last weekend when i packed my riding gear into storage. :(

Anyway...

I did vote concrete, Wire barriers concern me a fair bit.
Although ive never seen the result of it in an accident yet.
I can imagine what it might do to a person, or car...

I have how ever seen the aftermath of concrete barriers in road works.
Last year i witnessed an accident on Windsor Rd, Sydney where they are upgrading it between McGraths Hill and Rouse Hill. The guy in front of me fell asleep at the wheel on the way home from work one morning and drifted into the heavy on coming traffic. Being that we were in single lanes(one each way) the accident was relativly contained. He clipped the first car and pretty much head on into the next and the 3 behind nose to tailed each other.

Being that i saw the guy was all over the road id backed off considerably and sat back and took it all in... I tried flashing lights and getting on my horn to no avail. Maybe if i had my frieght train horn that i wanted it might have scared crap out of him and woken him up, the old factory XC horn dont work too well anymore...

Moral of the story, I know i was sitting on about 70 odd km/h that morning and the on coming traffic was going faster. Also being single lanes each way with concrete barriers either side, It worked out well and no one was overly hurt, the guy infront of me was in shock and a few teenie gurls cried alot.

I think the morning traffic suffered more...

[DirtyHarry]

Originally Posted by Keepleft

Wire rope barrier is the 'softest' barrier method.

.....Motorcyclist 'fears' with wire-rope systems are generally unfounded.....

Read this:

Berg Grzebieta Zou (Monash University) - Motorcyclists and Crash Barriers

A couple of quotes from the report:

Page 11:

In all simulations the motorcycle slides along the wires until it hits a post, squeezing and trapping the rider’s leg against the wires as it does so. The post contact causes the motorcycle’s front wheel to snag lifting the front of the motorcycle up and throwing the rider’s torso and head forward. Because the rider’s leg is trapped between the motorcycle and the wire ropes and the foot snags in the ropes, the head and torso slap into the front of the rising motorcycle. Eventually the leg becomes free as the motorcycle rotates and the rider is then catapulted over the barrier. This is a different result to the concrete barrier where the rider was thrown over the barrier with relatively little snagging or deceleration.

In both the 60 km/h and 80 km/h impact speeds at an angle of 25º, the motorbike throws the rider into the air with the rider hitting the ground head first. Hence the high HIC.

One of the motorcycling community’s key concerns with wire rope barriers was the possibility of a rider’s limb(s) becoming caught in the barrier during a collision. The simulations seem to indicate that this snagging effect occurs for both the rider’s leg nearest the barrier. However of greater concern is the snagging of the motorcycle’s front wheel on the barrier’s posts.

Page 12:

Simulations of the wire rope barrier collisions showed that regardless of angle or speed it is unlikely that the motorcyclist will clear the barrier very cleanly. In many cases the motorcyclist’s extremities became caught between the wires. This results in the rider being subjected to high decelerations and possible high injury risk secondary impacts into the road.

In all the simulated wire rope barrier collisions, the wires guided the motorcycle into the posts leading to heavy contact with the post. The motorcycle and the rider were subjected to large decelerations because of this snagging effect and hence elevating the injury risk for the rider.

[DirtyHarry]

On the other hand - from Brifen's web site - this has to be one of the coolest videos I've ever seen:

Car Saved from Canal

The crash appears to have been staged - who would volunteer to be the test driver?

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by DirtyHarry

Read this:

Berg Grzebieta Zou (Monash University) - Motorcyclists and Crash Barriers

A couple of quotes from the report:

Page 11:



Page 12:

I too am a motorcyclist and voted for the concrete barriers.

KeepLeft, you may have quoted that the British haven't had a death with there Brizen system. Do they use this system exclusively or others as well. Just how many severe road traumas have been caused by these wires.

The road toll isn't just about the number of deaths the RTAs of Australia preside over, but also the trauma (both short and long term) too.

The study that Dirty Harry has provided is just one example of the actual harm that they cause and it's from an independant source. Not from the manufacturer of a wire system with their own agenda.

Much of Europe is moving away from them as they have realised that it was a tragic mistake. Just because the US is moving towards them en-masse as you suggest doesn't mean it's the right idea (they aren't the brightest group of people!)


You have also stated that 'how many hits have they had? The RTA doesn't even bother counting' which suggests that this is another piece of infrastructure that requires maintenance (particularly in comparison to the concrete barriers) and doesn't really get it anyway. How effective long term both in cost and intended purpose will they truly be? Seems to be only a short term budget orientated fix. aka Quick they're cheap, put them up, make it look like we are doing 'something'...

I agree with your sentiments and clearly feel that you want the best outcomes for motorists but i believe you are wrong for the above reasons.

[fou_bleu]

I think i'd rather have bruses than a broken neck, so wire.