Electronic rust prevention

fordtorque · 08-03-2010, 09:15 AM

Gooday , has anyone had experience with the electronic rust prevention gadgets that fix to the firewall and are supposed to halt the oxidisation. My F truck is starting to show signs of nonsense in all the usual areas. How does it compare with the usual yearly dose of fisholine. Regards from QLD.

Ohio XB · 08-03-2010, 10:42 AM

A co-worker bought a Buick with the factory electronic rust preventer option and in 10 years did not have one speck of rust, and I live in the "Rust Belt" of northeast Ohio.

I'm considering one too.

Steve

Bushbasher · 08-03-2010, 11:03 AM

I have one on both our cars and neither has shown signs of rust, even the exhausts and paint stopped deteriorating, mind you I have only had the wagon for 3 years and the 'lane for 1yr but so far so good. I think the theory goes something like:- Rust/paint oxidization is the breaking down of electrons or the metal/paint surfaces shedding electrons and the ERPS pumps free electrons into the body and chassis of the vehicle and it's those free electrons that the surfaces shed thus leaving the original material with it's original electrons in place, so therefore no degradation. I believe they don't stop oxidization 100% but slow the process down to the point of being negligible. You can pick them up on Ebay for under $200 and it's cheap anti rust insurance. So far, I'm a believer

.

Bushbasher

**cs123** · 08-03-2010, 12:10 PM

If these units are sacrificial anodes I don't see how they can work on a car.

I'd suggest you look for a company with a product that is scientifically proven, with published results.

Stay away from any company that offers testimonials in place of hard data.

gtxb67 · 08-03-2010, 12:45 PM

i have the arma brand on the coupe. when it was installed, there was a bubble on my left quarter (above the sill) and slight bubbles appearing on the bonnet. that was in jan 04. from then until july 07 the bonnet remained the same. the bubble on the quarter grew slightly, but when it was cleaned out the rust hole was only the size of a 5 cent piece. since then nothing has come back

i have confidence in it and will never take it off

it is only a single module near the battery. when i checked out the erps brand, there had to be pads on all of the panels (six in all for the coupe), wheras the arma brand is much easier to fit

fordtorque · 08-03-2010, 01:14 PM

Yeah cs123, I think bushbasher kinda nailed the scientific side of it, from what I've read about these units. I dont think there are any sacrificial anodes involved. Need to do what ever I can as I dont intend selling the truck. Have been useing the normal methods of rustproofing over the years but its hard to get it into the areas where there is double panneling. Thanks for the replies thus far fellas. Great site .

mik · 08-03-2010, 01:16 PM

i remember seeing a place advertising these some years ago, it showed a salt mine and the rust damage to previouse vehicles, and the current vehicles rust free.

gtxb67 · 08-03-2010, 01:20 PM

one way that may?? work is to use an earthing strap - it has been suggested to me, but obviously i am not going to try it on the coupe. my understanding is that with the battery connected there is a small amount of charge running around the car (why we sometimes get zapped when touching it). the electronic devices put a neutral charge over the car and that helps to slow down/stop the rust

my old panel beater once suggested that if you leave the car for any length of time, disconnect the battery, so there is no charge and then the chances of rust are minimal. i do know that when i did that none of the rust ever got worse (however it was stored in country victoria, which is normally dry, but it had enough rust spots on it to make me worried)

Quicksand · 08-03-2010, 01:47 PM

The mythbusters tested this in their 'Salsa Escape' episode

http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2005/02/m...ape_dynam.html

My friend optioned it on his Holden Astra several years ago.

ChemicalHorizon · 08-03-2010, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fordtorque

Yeah cs123, I think bushbasher kinda nailed the scientific side of it, from what I've read about these units. I dont think there are any sacrificial anodes involved. Need to do what ever I can as I dont intend selling the truck. Have been useing the normal methods of rustproofing over the years but its hard to get it into the areas where there is double panneling. Thanks for the replies thus far fellas. Great site .

I dont think nailed is the right word to use...

2Fe => 2Fe2+ +4e- (anode reaction)

O2 + 2H2O + 4e- => 4OH- (example cathode reaction)

It sounds like your talking about Impressed Current Cathodic Protection, which depends on a supply of high energy (relative high energy) electrons to stifle anodic reactions at the metal surface. Low energy electrons are picked up at a non-reactive anoide bed, and are given additional energy by the action of a rectifier to be more energetic than the electrons that would be produced in teh corrosion reaction.

The energy for the "electron energy pump" is provided by ordinaary AC current. The effect is the structure being protected in the same was as that derved from sacrificial anode protectino systems, however the anode need not be consumed.

Materials used are usually graphite, or high silicon cast iron.

In general, they dont work all that well in cars....submerged pipes however...that where it does work.

**cs123** · 08-03-2010, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fordtorque

Yeah cs123, I think bushbasher kinda nailed the scientific side of it, from what I've read about these units. I dont think there are any sacrificial anodes involved. Need to do what ever I can as I dont intend selling the truck. Have been useing the normal methods of rustproofing over the years but its hard to get it into the areas where there is double panneling. Thanks for the replies thus far fellas. Great site .

Just be careful. http://www.carsavers.com/tipconsumer.htm

Other have said it. Sacrificial anode works well in specific applications, but I don't know how it can work on cars. I believe the little boxes that pulse "energy" through your car are up there with Hilcones and polarisers. If a $5 box of parts can do this then why don't all manufactures do it.

Just my opinion though as I am not a materials engineer. I'd be looking at established methods of rust containment first.

Google "electronic rust prevention scam" and have a look at what many people are saying.

Sorry to be a nay sayer.

gtxb67 · 08-03-2010, 02:38 PM

i understand the non believers - and i cannot state as a fact that mine does work

my coupe has never been rebuilt - only maintained. the plenum has not been touched, the rear wheel arches have not been touched, nor has the roof gutters and many other areas that coupes rust. this may suggest my car was sealed very well when it was built - it has certainly been treated very well over the last 22 years

when i purchased mine i painted killrust inside the doors (never rusted) and quarter panels etc. obviously the three areas i mentioned could not be done properly. over time little bits of rust would pop up. around the boot rubber, small pieces started in the door jambs etc. i was happy to spend on average around $200 a year on panel work (generally every three years some small things would get done). by august 2003 the bill was $1200 which was probably over the $200 a year budgeted by a fair way. my point is it seemed like it may have been getting out of control. within 6 weeks, a bubble appeared on the left quarter above the sill and by january 2004 i purchased the arma rust prevention module. since then no rust has been sighted. from my own personal experience i would suggest that it does work - it certainly doesn't promote rust, which was my only concern when buying it

all in all i am very happy with it and would recommend it

Fev · 08-03-2010, 04:59 PM

As an Escort owner - i think i really need to buy one of these heheh. Whats a good reputable item at a reasonable price? I see the Arma brand is used by some people. Best place to get it from in Sydney? Doesn't seem to be an Arma store in NSW

Kryton · 08-03-2010, 05:06 PM

Maybe someone that has one would like to do a test to prove or disprove the concept.

2 identical pieces of steel left unpainted outside in the weather, one with the rust prevention unit hooked onto it and the other without.

2 weeks should be enough to see what the outcome is.

gtxb67 · 08-03-2010, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davway

Maybe someone that has one would like to do a test to prove or disprove the concept.

2 identical pieces of steel left unpainted outside in the weather, one with the rust prevention unit hooked onto it and the other without.

2 weeks should be enough to see what the outcome is.

maybe: but from memory the erps system never pretended to stop surface rust. i believe they actually stated that it needed a coating of some sort (either paint or oxidization) to work
from my own personal experience the rust has stopped on my car. that does not prove anything i know, but i was quite happy to try it out as long as it did not promote rust. if it didn't work i had blown less money on it than other items for the car. if it did, i was ahead by miles - both monetary and with peace of mind
i certainly am a satisfied customer - but the car still stays under cover at virtually all times. previously though, staying under cover at virtually all times did not prevent rust

ohzone · 08-03-2010, 06:44 PM

I have seen on two different occassions these units removed from cars and rust occurring around the self tappers that secured the units, I don't think they work on cars to any great degree.
Keeping the nooks and crannies of your car clean of dirt, leaves and bugs would have a more benificial effect.

**DJR-351** · 08-03-2010, 06:53 PM

A shipping company i worked for in Darwin fitted these types of devices to 4 brand new Cat loaders, we used them for loading/unloading cargo from landing barges we used to deliver freight to the coastal communities around the top end. Within 12 months all the panel work was rusting through, hinges where sizing up and breaking and to top it of the electrical terminals on the electronic units corroded through and broke of (the units themselves were corroding).
The shipping company was involved in a court case with the supplier of the units, due to the $300k price tag of the loaders, but i left before any decision was made so i don't know the outcome.

The loaders where working in salt water most of the time and when out at sea they would cop a drowning if the sea was rough (always washed down with fresh when back in port), so the environment was probably a bit extreme.
They maybe ok in an environment free from salt water, but i would not rely on one for my 4WD on the beach, lots of fisholene and freshwater washdowns has worked best for me....

ChemicalHorizon · 08-03-2010, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtxb67

maybe: but from memory the erps system never pretended to stop surface rust. i believe they actually stated that it needed a coating of some sort (either paint or oxidization) to work
from my own personal experience the rust has stopped on my car. that does not prove anything i know, but i was quite happy to try it out as long as it did not promote rust. if it didn't work i had blown less money on it than other items for the car. if it did, i was ahead by miles - both monetary and with peace of mind
i certainly am a satisfied customer - but the car still stays under cover at virtually all times. previously though, staying under cover at virtually all times did not prevent rust

You cannot rust (or oxidise...you seem to be getting them abit confused, oxidation of iron is often called rusting) anywhere except on the surface of the metal. Oxidation starts through paintwork generally via pin hole breaks or cracks in the paint...i.e. a surface!

The WORST thing about rust under paint, or via pinholes is that you often never remove the agents facilitating the reaction. Hence why they are bloody hard to stop once they start. Sounds like they are even telling you the best way to prevent rust is to have a protective surface coating??

If it never pretended to stop surface rust, then its pretending to stop ANY rust, because thats the only sort you can have.

Lets just make cars from stainless steel already?

Road_Warrior · 08-03-2010, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChemicalHorizon

Lets just make cars from stainless steel already?

Your DeLorean is waiting.

Whitey Ford · 09-03-2010, 09:08 AM

Territory owners all know about the rust problem on the tailgate striker area of the boot.

Many owners had optioned the electronic rust protection and the rust still formed. I believe at least one member of AFF got the value of the rust protection refunded as it did not work.

As was mentioned previously, the technology works in some applications, but cars are not one of those applications.

Besides, modern cars are all treated prior to painting. You won't get rust on an undamaged modern car unless there is a fault in the treatment process (as with the Territorys). If there is a fault with the treatment process, that is covered by Ford's 5 year corrosion warranty.

wicksy · 09-03-2010, 09:47 AM

when i use to work at tint-a-car, we use to fit the electronic rust preventers, and had cars come back with rust on them haha or the units rusted themselves,

**aussiblue** · 09-03-2010, 08:38 PM

The highly respected Bosh/SAE Automotive handbook suggests that anodic (rather than cathodic) electronic corrosion protection, while more difficult to achieve, should in theory work and provide "excellent protection for the metal."

Most people are more familiar with the type of cathodic protection which relies on a sacrificial anode and a conductive medium such as salt or hard water to work but either cathodic or anodic corrosion protection can use an external voltage source to provide a current instead. With anodic protection the object is to move the potential of the corrosion threatened electronic electrode into the passive range (not further or it will cause corrosion -hence the difficulty) with cathodic protection the object is to prevent an anodic current flow.

The practical difficultly with electronic protection is that unless there is some means of monitoring and automatically adjusting the current density or potential to ensure you are getting the anodic or cathodic state you desire it might make things worse rather than better. There is also the difficulty of ensuring the current flows through all the parts you want to protect and some who sell these devices also package it with a conductive coating that is sprayed on (but then why not simply just spray the whole car with with probably cheaper and more effective deodorised fish oil?).

Also see http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_100606/article.html although they also seemed to have forgotten about the lesser known option of anodic protection.

Also see: http://www.automotivehelper.com/topic219494.htm

Quote:
"There have been two very good papers presented on the lack of scienific basis for using CP in this application:

Baboian, R., CATHODIC PROTECTION OF AUTOMOBILES, DOES IT WORK, NACE
Paper, Corrosion/87, 1987 and Materials Performance, Vol. 26,
no. 7, 1987.

Baboian, R., STATE OF THE ART IN AUTOMOBILE CATHODIC PROTECTION, PROCEEDINGS OF THE 5TH AUTOMOTIVE CORROSION AND PREVENTION CONFERENCE, SAE p-250, Society of Automotive Engineers, 1991 and SAE Transactions, Sept, 1992.

The Federal Trade Commission has taken a firm stance against firms that make claims of protecting cars by this technique."

Again the subject of anodic rather than cathodic electronic protection isn't mentioned.

gtxb67 · 09-03-2010, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChemicalHorizon

If it never pretended to stop surface rust, then its pretending to stop ANY rust, because thats the only sort you can have.

surface rust is where it starts. it then penetrates the metal and eats away at it and then it is no longer surface rust but a hole

i read the booklet on erps many years ago, so may have forgotten some things, but the book suggested that the pulse the system put throughout the car would not work on bare metal. it need paint or surface rust to carry the pulse throughout the car

if people do not believe they can work - then that is great
if my car has suddenly stopped having problems through coincidence and i am blissfully unaware of the real reason it has not had any more rust - then that is great too

i am very happy with mine and will continue to use it and if our resident scientists cannot explain it then who cares, there are many things science cannot explain because too many people only look at what they have been taught - others however try to think outside the square and sometimes they can re-write the book

having said all of this, i am not going to leave my car out in the weather, just because it has an anti rust system on it. if it works only a small amount, then that amount combined with the fact it is out of the weather will help to protect my car for years to come. i would certainly not consider getting one as the only preventative measure

JK EX CHASER · 09-03-2010, 10:38 PM

My experience was with a ford festiva I service for years had rust prevention unit. after the warranty had runout i seen the car in a workshop on the hoist ,i could not believe what iv seen every bolt on the car had rust.The bolts that had rusted were never painted .

dave351cid · 09-03-2010, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wicksy

when i use to work at tint-a-car, we use to fit the electronic rust preventers, and had cars come back with rust on them haha or the units rusted themselves,

lol.. yep. i used to see newish cars with the taint-a-car units on that were rusting quite often. i used to do rust protection as part of my business for 9 years and did a lot of research into the electronic systems. even through all my contacts in the industry i could not find anyone who could explain how the Taint-a-car unit was supposed to work. they defy any of the reconised electrical theoris .

as mentioned above the sacroficial cathodic systems only work when the part to be protected is submersed in an electrolite (they have been widely used in the marine industry for close to a centry).

the anodic systems are the ones designed for use on dry or free standing vehicals and constructions. as already stated they use the paint or an existing layer of oxidisation ( surface rust) to carry negative charged electrons to neutralise the electrical potential in the normally positivly charged metal. this inturn will help to prevent the electrolisis reaction that is needed to form rust.

the two prominent makers of this style of system was/is "E.R.P.S." and "Couplertec" . my prefered was the E.R.P.S. system .

if you do the research they dont claim to work magic but to help slow a natural process .

when i bought my BA ute new i fitted the E.R.P.S. as well as applying some chemical coating where i could inside of body panels.

chemical coatings will never be able to protect all areas due to access restrictions and electronic systems also have limitations so with both you should be pretty well covered.

my ute is only a few months off 7 years old now, within 20km of the coast and has had very little time under cover, and is showing no signs of rust.

i fitted hundreds of E.R.P.S. systems when i had the shop and the only compliants / warrenties i had was the little red LED power light would sometimes fail. when tested the systems were still working.

Martyvan · 09-03-2010, 11:49 PM

ive got a couplertec on my pajero.... a bloke at work had a similar system (ERPS?) and he dipped his car in the salt water VERY regularly..... boats/beach etc.

a scratch on his bonnet never oxidised after 5years of ownership... guess you cant argue with that?

Bushbasher · 11-03-2010, 08:50 AM

Yup, Couplertec here too on the missus' wagon and one called EvriGuard on the Fairlane. Apart from being cheaper, the Evriguard one has 2 contact points, one front and one back where as the Couplertec just goes from one side of the engine bay to the other. I couldn't say one is better than the other but they both work on the same principal and niether of my cars is showing signs of oxidisation anywhere.

Bushbasher

snowcone · 11-03-2010, 10:39 AM

Might have a lot to do with how the car is made and originally painted. I just sold my 1991 Toyota Soarer (grey import) that I have had for over 8 years and these have a fully galvenised body and there was not the slightest bit of any kind of rust anywhere on the car - not bad for 19 years old

irish2 · 11-03-2010, 06:17 PM

Electronic rust protection must have some merit. It is used to prevent rust in chiller tanks. The system is however run off mains and self adjusts.

dave351cid · 11-03-2010, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irish2

Electronic rust protection must have some merit. It is used to prevent rust in chiller tanks. The system is however run off mains and self adjusts.

the rep from E.R.P.S. was telling me one day that they had fitted a system to the Lucinda warfs near ingham qld and were doing a quote up to build a unit to protect the sugar sheds onshore. this is i think the longest steel piered jetty in australia, something like 7km long.