Does Holden have an advantage after local assembly stops?

FalconXV · 03-02-2015, 06:15 PM

Reading the new Top Gear (speculative) article about HSV's next Commodore, I think Ford may lose alot of business after 2016.
I'm trying to work out if there's any scope to "Australianise" the Mondeo after the "Commodore" comes out, and there isn't really.

That the market is shrinking is well and truly documented. That the new Commodore isn't going to be a substitute for the current model is also no secret. But with them making an effort to engineer, and tailor it to our market, surely 50-70% of current VE/VF customers will consider giving the new one a go come trade-in time. And if it is faster, better they'll be onto a winner.
Especially since there'll be a performance variant, HSV or otherwise.

Clearly GM has built a business case for a unique variant of their next car to be built at Russelsheim( or China or w/e), with possibly unique engines and design aspects on the same line as the Insignia.
I believe there is a chance that Holden and HSV could, in alot of ways bring out a decent car in it's own right.
They'll probaby make sure it can tow, tune the engines and if HSV is good enough with a performance variant, it could be exported since its based on a global platform.
Hopefully, it could also mean more contracts for Aussie supppliers (although not nearly enough to save most of them).

It's ironic that Holden has the scope to do this, when they're the ones scaling back the local R&D department, while Ford is adding engineers and designers but doesn't appear to want to fill the gap Falcon XR6T, LPI, ute will leave.

The key difference is that Mondeo/Fusion was designed before Ford announced closure, so our market wasn't a major consideration.

The Insignia/Buick/Commodore, meanwhile, is being designed with significant input from Holden, and will probably be alot lighter than Mondeo- which has been criticised for being too heavy.

If One Ford was as effective and good as its claimed to be, we would be able to cherry pick engines from the Ford empire to put into Ranger, Mondeo and Transit (the US Ecoboost V6 could be a good platform for a performance van), to give XR6T, taxi fleets, Falcon ute customers, LPI customers something to consider come trade-in time.

GM seems to have more flexibility for our market in these segments.

I know Mondeo is a great car in it's own right, but I wish Ford Aus would make effort to fill gaps. Like an LPI V6 ( Lincoln MKZ engine + Falcon LPI hardware), a XR (either aforementioned V6+ manaul with LSD/ Revoknuckle, or 2.3 Ecoboost) but Ford doesn't have a skunkworks like HSV/FPV anymore.

The Ranger has become alot more car-like, but it's no Falcon ute. I'd like to see a Hilux V6 competitor to fill the gap maybe, with better handling. Maybe a Coyote version. But I'm dreaming aren't I...

I love the Fiesta, Focus, etc and know they're brilliant, but I find myself very intrigued at the prospect of Holden still making some kind of effort to tailor a car to our market. I hope it is successful, and prompts Ford to consider a re-alignment of Mondeo and Ranger to fill the gap.
Thoughts?

danzvtil · 03-02-2015, 06:32 PM

All of the above misses the whole point that Australia is too small a market to have bespoke models, the best we can hope for is the Hyundai/Kia approach of tuned for Australian conditions.
And when Mondeo was designed im certain ford gave NO thought as to how it would compare to falcon.

FalconXV · 03-02-2015, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danzvtil

All of the above misses the whole point that Australia is too small a market to have bespoke models, the best we can hope for is the Hyundai/Kia approach of tuned for Australian conditions.
And when Mondeo was designed im certain ford gave NO thought as to how it would compare to falcon.

Actually the best we can hope for is the Commodore approach, since it goes further. Hence they can justify a name change, and HSV variants.
I mentioned the Mondeo not being made with any consideration for that, but The Commodore is different, since the core platform is being developed post-shutdown announcement.

mr smith · 03-02-2015, 06:42 PM

Holden are in the worst situation of any car company here. Without a big rear drive v8 they will be rooted.

Mighty Reds · 03-02-2015, 06:46 PM

Holden seem to be advertising Opel stuff already.

danzvtil · 03-02-2015, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr smith

Holden are in the worst situation of any car company here. Without a big rear drive v8 they will be rooted.

I agree, aside from V8 RWD aussie models, the GM range as it stands is mediocre, current captiva is a Daewoo legacy model, Colorado isn't as solid an effort as ranger.
Ford by comparison haven't got as far to fall so to speak, remove Falcon and Territory, they are left with well regarded cars that don't sell as they should. With good cars, you can market your way back to prosperity, with mediocre, you cant fool the average punter.

Nikked · 03-02-2015, 07:00 PM

Don't get too sucked in to the idea that Holden are building a car just for us elsewhere, its no different to what Ford is doing with the Everest. Design/engerneered here for the global market, but slightly more suited due to our engerneers having local knowledge.

MAGPIE · 03-02-2015, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FalconXV

But I'm dreaming aren't I...

Yes you are.

b2tf · 03-02-2015, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FalconXV

I'd like to see a Hilux V6 competitor to fill the gap maybe, with better handling. Maybe a Coyote version. But I'm dreaming aren't I...
Thoughts?

Honestly I'm sick of reading peoples' hypotheses about Ford, but the above point sticks out. Why on earth would you build a car like a Hilux V6? Have you ever owned or driven one? They go like stink BUT cost a shedload to run, most fleet companies are getting rid of them for that reason (mine included, we've changed to Rangers).

The Coyote variant would be cool though, but I think there has to be more to a car than it being 'cool' in order for it to be built.

FalconXV · 03-02-2015, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b2tf

Honestly I'm sick of reading peoples' hypotheses about Ford, but the above point sticks out. Why on earth would you build a car like a Hilux V6? Have you ever owned or driven one? They go like stink BUT cost a shedload to run, most fleet companies are getting rid of them for that reason (mine included, we've changed to Rangers).

The Coyote variant would be cool though, but I think there has to be more to a car than it being 'cool' in order for it to be built.

Yeah relax buddy, nothing to get riled up/ indignant about. The Hilux still oustells Ranger and they have a V6 variant. I am talking about my personal preference, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
I'm hoping there's a new 6-cylinder ute for sale after that timeframe because thats my kind of vehicle. Is that okay with you?

Yes I've driven one. And a 2.7 workmate, Ranger 2.2, 3.2, 2.5, VF SV6 ute and FG LPI, XR6T and NA utes, for the record.

FalconXV · 03-02-2015, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr smith

Holden are in the worst situation of any car company here. Without a big rear drive v8 they will be rooted.

I dunno. Plenty of V8 loyalists switched over when the XR6T came out. I'm sure if there's an all-paw Insignia that is faster than the outgoing SS, some people would be enticed to consider it. That's why I said 50-70%.
If HSV can squeeze an LS motor in, that's definitely a coup, but we'll have to see about that one...

b2tf · 03-02-2015, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FalconXV

Yeah relax buddy, nothing to get riled up/ indignant about. The Hilux still oustells Ranger and they have a V6 variant. I am talking about my personal preference, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
I'm hoping there's a new 6-cylinder ute for sale after that timeframe because thats my kind of vehicle. Is that okay with you?

Yes I've driven one. And a 2.7 workmate, Ranger 2.2, 3.2, 2.5, VF SV6 ute and FG LPI, XR6T and NA utes, for the record.

I'm fine. Buddy. And yes that's fine with me. Buddy.

Dont call me Buddy. Sport.

ParisManfred · 03-02-2015, 08:27 PM

Ford will be fine, Ford have a far better range all the way from the Fietsa to the Mustang, you can not same the same for Holden but what you can say is Holden spend more money on marketing and sponsorship which translates to high Commodore sales.

I think too many people when comparing Ford v Holden think Falcon v Commodore and forget the rest of the range. Have a good close look at the Opel Commodore, if I was a Holden lover I would be worried.

Bossxr8 · 03-02-2015, 08:28 PM

Your reading way too much into what Holden will be doing with the next Commodore. They will have next to no imput bar local suspension and steering tuning, which they already do with imported stuff anyway, just like most of the manufacturers do with imported stuff as well.

They will have a totally skeleton crew of engineers left here. The ads Holden are running atm are nothing but blatant pre-emptive brain washing, convincing the stupid people out there (Commodore owners I guess) that the next Commodore will be Aussie as mate. Spare me

FWD burnouts in our imported Opal POS- Let's Go There

b2tf · 03-02-2015, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

FWD burnouts in our imported Opal POS- Let's Go There

The big issue that nobody has touched on yet is that there is going to be a huge glut of commodore stockies with burnout tyres on gumtree after the Commodores are gone. What are they going to fit them to now?

Wont somebody think of the children........

Bossxr8 · 03-02-2015, 08:38 PM

Maybe they can fit them to the front wheels

FalconXV · 03-02-2015, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Your reading way too much into what Holden will be doing with the next Commodore. They will have next to no imput bar local suspension and steering tuning, which they already do with imported stuff anyway, just like most of the manufacturers do with imported stuff as well.

They will have a totally skeleton crew of engineers left here. The ads Holden are running atm are nothing but blatant pre-emptive brain washing, convincing the stupid people out there (Commodore owners I guess) that the next Commodore will be Aussie as mate. Spare me

FWD burnouts in our imported Opal POS- Let's Go There

Lol sadly I think you're right after reading some articles. Did get carried away with a bit of wishful thinking. But I'm prone to doing that- there's so much talent and passion in this country I'd hope theres some kind of outlet for it in the future.

Quote:

Originally Posted by b2tf

I'm fine. Buddy. And yes that's fine with me. Buddy.

Dont call me Buddy. Sport.

Sorry darlin.

timeout · 03-02-2015, 08:53 PM

hope you like driving opel insignias thats what the rvcs site says they are type certifing convert the sample vins if youmust?

timeout · 03-02-2015, 09:00 PM

http://rvcs-prodweb.dot.gov.au/AppDo...014200501.HTML

Make : Holden

Model : GA

Category : MA

Manufactured by : GM Holden Limited

Typical VIN : W0LGS5EG2F1123456

Seating Capacity : 5

----------
decoder website

VIN:

W0LGS5EG2F1123456

WMI / VDS / VIS:

W0L / GS5EG2 / F1123456

Manufacturer:

Opel GM Germany

Brand:

Opel

Model:

Insignia Sport

Engine:

A28NER325HP

Region/Plant:

Rüsselsheim Germany

Check:

2

Year:

2015

Sequential number:

23456

http://www.vindecoderz.com/EN/check-...GS5EG2F1123456

timeout · 03-02-2015, 09:03 PM

a28ner is the 2.8 hfv6 turbo alloytec

Motorcode: A28NER
Bauform: V6 DOHC
Ventilanzahl und Antrieb: 24, Steuerkette
verstellbare Nockenwellen: Einlass- und Auslassseite
Bohrung: 89,0 mm
Hub: 74,8 mm
Volumen: 2792 cm3
Verdichtung: 9,5 : 1
Leistung: 239 kW (325 PS) / 5250 min-1
Drehmoment: 435 / 5250 min-1
Kraftstoffsystem: Einzeleinspritzung, ?
Abgassystem: kein AGR, geregelter Katalysator
Turbolader: Typ unbekannt
Besonderheiten: E-Gas, Kolbenbodenkühlung, Tempomat
Ölfüllmenge (Liter): 6,3

SpoolMan · 03-02-2015, 09:22 PM

Holden big seller is the Commodore.
Fords sales are from much more a broader range of vehicle not reliant on just the Falcon.
Once the Mustang hits Australia I think they will sell more units than FPV did..

My32Doors · 03-02-2015, 09:22 PM

No they don't

FalconXV · 03-02-2015, 10:40 PM

Wouldn't that just be the current Insignia OPC that they're selling this year?

2011G6E · 03-02-2015, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr smith

Holden are in the worst situation of any car company here. Without a big rear drive v8 they will be rooted.

Not entirely sure about that.
I know quite a few people out here who have got new lease cars recently, and they've deliberately gone out and picked a V8 SS, Calais, whatever, Holden. They've said they "finally decided to buy one" once they found out they wouldn't be made anymore. Otherwise, they say, they would have just picked a V6 one, or some SUV or four wheel drive like they had before.
It obviously implies the only reason they went ahead and ordered one was "exclusivity" and "owning the last of the breed". To be fair, I have also heard guys say that about V8 Falcons of various sorts. One guy even thinks his SS with a few Walkinshaw options (not a supercharged one) is going to be a fast appreciating collector item in years to come. I think he should be prepared to be surprised...

Can you claim this is evidence the company will be "rooted" without a rear drive V8? Of course not. These, and people like them, are just outlying spikes in the statistics...they can't really be used as "the norm", as they openly say they would have never considered one if the company hadn't said they weren't making them anymore.

Mustang? I agree they'll walk out of the showrooms like hotcakes.
Providing they don't price them stupidly and make sure to bring in normal base models and not just the upper premium models...otherwise it's going to be another slow-selling short-lived model that gets dumped after a few years because of low sales. In the USA, unless you're talking top end models or Shelby versions, they're mostly just a rather nice looking two door family car that any Joe can afford.
I have a horrible feeling Ford Australia is going to shoot itself in the foot with them though...

new2ford · 03-02-2015, 11:43 PM

Isn't the natural next-car transition for a RWD Falcon or Commodore owner the equivalent BMW or Mercedes model? After all, there's nothing else equivalent on the market afaik.

("subject to finance"!)

2011G6E · 03-02-2015, 11:54 PM

Still reminded of the words of the salesman when we bought a G6E a few years back...I was the first person in a couple of months who had even bothered to ask to see under the bonnet.

Do people still honestly, truthfully believe any more than maybe 10% of car buyers even care which end is doing the driving in a family sedan? It's become a non-issue these days, apart from a vanishingly-small number of enthusiasts, and a car company doesn't thrive and survive by spending big to cater for the smallest number of buyers...they make money by catering to the majority of buyers.

Ford_The_Win · 04-02-2015, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by new2ford

Isn't the natural next-car transition for a RWD Falcon or Commodore owner the equivalent BMW or Mercedes model? After all, there's nothing else equivalent on the market afaik.

("subject to finance"!)

I will be going for a full size SUV next personally, or maybe even a second hand Silverado/F150. I don't think I could settle for a 5 series/C class or at the other end of the price spectrum, Mondeo

1TUFFUTE · 04-02-2015, 05:38 AM

Unless the media treats the fwd commodore with an amazing amount off love....it's stuffed from the start. There's no way in hell a car that's an Australian icon can become exactly what everyone hates to begin with. It'll take two more v8supercar teams....another 10 years of major sponsorship rugby deals and the ussual Holden dribble fest on tv, too get people to accept it.

The ONLY way I can imagine it working is if, like the xr6t, the pick of the bunch(in this case the AwD version) can be had way down the food chain, like the xr6t was. But not just in hsv form.....Can't see that being enough!

zilo · 04-02-2015, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by new2ford

Isn't the natural next-car transition for a RWD Falcon or Commodore owner the equivalent BMW or Mercedes model? After all, there's nothing else equivalent on the market afaik.

("subject to finance"!)

If they could afford it...sure...but that's not reality, that's car forums talk.

As long as it starts, is safe, can get the kids to school and doesn't use a pile of petrol, has an ipod interface then it's a winner....and noone cares about RWD.

ebv8 · 04-02-2015, 08:40 AM

they should have a re-born FPV and provide the hot (Australian) Version of the Ranger and have a Factory ecoboost development program to get more from the ecoboost before you take delivery on all models, maybe not full FPV models just a tweaks and a small badge like walkinshaw does.
I can see the ranger taking over as no.1 seller soon if Ford market it right.
a ranger with a tuned 3.5l V6 ecoboost would be nice...