Will the Holden brand survive?

[PG2]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Neither, im a Falcon and just recently a Territory fan.

Now if you wouldn't mind answering one for me, to be allowed to log on here do i need to salivate over the brand or can i call it as i see it.

No, you don't need to salivate over Ford, no one does.


But, I will remind you of this T&C...

8. Continual posts containing negative comments about the Ford Motor Company, Ford related product or the AFF community. This does not mean that you can't raise a legitimate issue or make the occasional negative comment but consistent bashing won't be tolerated.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Lol, how many of those 12 segments do both have an entrant in?
7 and its 4-3 in Holdens favour.
You can cut that back to 6 soon and take out the subcompact segment as both manufacturers are abandoning it but in its replacement, Subcompact SUV, Holden has a huge advantage.
The only place Ford has a genuine advantage over Holden is in the 4x4 ute market when comparing apples with apples.

But you're not comparing apples to apples, the moment you ignore vehicle age, sales mix and pricing,
your comparisons are out the window.

Notice that most of Holden's sales leads are in the subcompact cars and SUVs,
could that be because of recent discounting to push sales???

The Equinox (new) vs Escape is pretty line ball and i'd be prepared to concede
that Equinox sales mix might be richer while escape could have a lower sales mix to level sales..

See how this goes, it's not all about sales numbers in a vacuum, Ford dropped
its Ambiente Focus a few years back and started with Trend up over $23K
boom, there goes sales but not the kind you really want to have..save for $17,990 Astras..

On and on it goes, the worst of it is Colorado 4x2 and 4x4 are way less costly to purchase that ranger
Again Trailblazer versus Everest - try getting a decent Everest for under $60K without giving up stuff...


new Escape will be with us in the near future but I realise that until Ford has new product here now,
it is really at the mercy of the market but equally, Holden would gladly trade 1600 of its other sales
to have 1600 more 4x4 Colorado sales...be under no illusion about that, they would love to be where Ford is.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

But you're not comparing apples to apples, the moment you ignore vehicle age, sales mix and pricing,
your comparisons are out the window.

Perhaps you should lobby Vfacts to produce a breakdown of where each model is at in its life cycle, the mix and pricing.
I doubt it'll get much traction though, most people, apart from bean counters and those looking for any little advantage, just look at the final numbers.

You're clearly focussing on who's making the most money, i dont get any of it so i dont care and apart from that the answer would be Toyota with daylight second....

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Perhaps you should lobby Vfacts to produce a breakdown of where each model is at in its life cycle, the mix and pricing.
I doubt it'll get much traction though, most people, apart from bean counters and those looking for any little advantage, just look at the final numbers.

You're clearly focussing on who's making the most money, i dont get any of it so i dont care and apart from that the answer would be Toyota with daylight second....

Reality check, for all of its massive sales, Toyota doesn't declare much profit
or maybe they do what GM and Ford have been doing for years with price transferring....
Toyota Australia profit:
2016-2017.....$99 million (down $137 Million)....https://www.motoring.com.au/toyota-a...months-107622/
2016-2017.....$137 million..............................https://www.goauto.com.au/news/toyot...-21/73654.html

[PG2]

Gentlemen.

We are now just going around in circles.

You have both now had your say and I too, have had my say.

Let's back onto the topic of, "Will the Holden Brand Survive?"

[jpd80]

So what are the chances that ZB Commodore is over the worst and sales may be growing?

I thought Equinox would do better but must say was not that impressed with interior...

Will the new Arcadia move the sales needle much for Holden?

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

So what are the chances that ZB Commodore is over the worst and sales may be growing?

Its hard to say but we need to remember that its only 12 months since local production ceased and many buyers pulled the trigger on a new one before they finished.
This car is polarising and will take time to bring people around if ever, having said that, being fully imported now and sold in more markets than the outgoing model did it doesnt need to reach the numbers that VF or its predecessors did to be economically viable.
I know alot of people say they hardly see the things and as someone who lives within throwing distance of the Elizabeth plant and obviously Holden country, this is certainly a fair comment, however, numbers locally are growing so the die hards are taking a closer look.

I've said from the beginning that 800 per month is where its probably at and its not far off that now which isnt bad for a car which is so radically different from the one its replaced and thats without factoring in the V8's absence.
If you consider that of the 2000 odd units a month during the last year of VF production, 70% was V8's (1400 give or take) and ZB doesnt have a V8, the 6 at 700 units has actually held firm.

[jpd80]

Once the rhetoric of unrequited love dies down, we see buyers reappearing, it's still happening
long after many local supporters thought Mustang would peak and trough as the novelty wore off.
It's now becoming clear that people are giving imported Mustang and ZB Commodore more than a go.

[davenl5l]

Originally Posted by Syndrome

Hamilton Holden & HSV

No . City Holden

[bigwil]

Im on holidays at the Gold Coast and ive seen plenty of ZBs, guessing they are rentals but they are everywhere

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

So what are the chances that ZB Commodore is over the worst and sales may be growing?

I thought Equinox would do better but must say was not that impressed with interior...

Will the new Arcadia move the sales needle much for Holden?

Acadia is a petrol V6 and will probably guzzle the fuel. I see it going the way of the Equinox which has been a massive fail for Holden. If it had a diesel option it might be different.

In before someone says Kluger is a petrol V6 only. But it's a Toyota and it's the only one in the segment that sells petrols in any decent numbers. The rest are mostly diesel.

[GCRXR6]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

No im not, one of those 3 in Fords favour is 4x4 ute of which they are miles ahead, how is including that segment ignoring it, the fact is, of those 7 segments that they BOTH compete in, Holden is in front 4 to 3.

Of the remaining 5 segments, Ford competes in 4 for around 1100 sales whilst Holden competes in 1 for almost 700.
Ford may compete in more segments, but apart from Ranger, they arent really setting records now hey.

What about the 4x2 utes? Ranger again.

[kevino]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Its hard to say but we need to remember that its only 12 months since local production ceased and many buyers pulled the trigger on a new one before they finished.
This car is polarising and will take time to bring people around if ever, having said that, being fully imported now and sold in more markets than the outgoing model did it doesnt need to reach the numbers that VF or its predecessors did to be economically viable.
I know alot of people say they hardly see the things and as someone who lives within throwing distance of the Elizabeth plant and obviously Holden country, this is certainly a fair comment, however, numbers locally are growing so the die hards are taking a closer look.

I've said from the beginning that 800 per month is where its probably at and its not far off that now which isnt bad for a car which is so radically different from the one its replaced and thats without factoring in the V8's absence.
If you consider that of the 2000 odd units a month during the last year of VF production, 70% was V8's (1400 give or take) and ZB doesnt have a V8, the 6 at 700 units has actually held firm.

Interesting points. So of the 700 VF 6, sold each month how many were sold to rental companies? And if rental companies were the biggest buyer of VF 6, s does ZB really only sell to rental car companies?

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by kevino

Interesting points. So of the 700 VF 6, sold each month how many were sold to rental companies? And if rental companies were the biggest buyer of VF 6, s does ZB really only sell to rental car companies?

Does it matter, a sales a sale i guess although having said that there must be quite a few people renting cars in my neighborhood lately.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Once the rhetoric of unrequited love dies down, we see buyers reappearing, it's still happening
long after many local supporters thought Mustang would peak and trough as the novelty wore off.
It's now becoming clear that people are giving imported Mustang and ZB Commodore more than a go.

How much of those sales were driven by runouts on last year's Mustang, and dealer registrations for ZBs? I can understand Mustang popularity, but I've seen so scant few ZBs I find it hard to believe they're moving off the yard.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by b0son

How much of those sales were driven by runouts on last year's Mustang, and dealer registrations for ZBs? I can understand Mustang popularity, but I've seen so scant few ZBs I find it hard to believe they're moving off the yard.

They’re not most ZB’s are rentals and demos.

[Smoke Pursuit]

ZB is all fleet / demo, very few high end models either just basic LT / RS.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by jpd80

So what are the chances that ZB Commodore is over the worst and sales may be growing?

I thought Equinox would do better but must say was not that impressed with interior...

Will the new Arcadia move the sales needle much for Holden?

ZB is all fleet, goverment and rental. Very few are private and theres a lot of demos that were registered 6 months ago which are still on dealer shelves.



God only knows what fleet incentives they are putting them on to get traction, there would be a loss in everyone I would think.



As for Equinox it should have been called Captiva. Captiva the dog it was still sold in good numbers.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Smoke Pursuit

ZB is all fleet, goverment and rental. Very few are private and theres a lot of demos that were registered 6 months ago which are still on dealer shelves.



God only knows what fleet incentives they are putting them on to get traction, there would be a loss in everyone I would think.



As for Equinox it should have been called Captiva. Captiva the dog it was still sold in good numbers.

It must be a bit of a head scratcher for Holden how the Equinox can't even sell in numbers anywhere near what that POS Captiva sold.

It was utter garbage but it sold well over 3 or 4 times what the Equinox is. Or is it a case of the Holden brand being so toxic now, and not back then?

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

It must be a bit of a head scratcher for Holden how the Equinox can't even sell in numbers anywhere near what that POS Captiva sold.

Because the Captiva didn't exactly have a great reputation for reliability, add to that the even worse reputation of the Cruze, and its little wonder people just aren't interested in Holdens.

[kevino]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Does it matter, a sales a sale i guess although having said that there must be quite a few people renting cars in my neighborhood lately.

Sales to rental car companies would be a fleet discount plus meaning low profit or nil profit per sale.
If ZB is mainly selling to rental car companies at no or little profit what is the cars reason to exist?

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by kevino

Sales to rental car companies would be a fleet discount plus meaning low profit or nil profit per sale.
If ZB is mainly selling to rental car companies at no or little profit what is the cars reason to exist?

Cool, sounds like you're confident with your analysis so i'll take your word for it.

[arronm]

I havent seen one on the road in Perth yet. Or maybe I have and thought it was a toyota or mazda. Who knows the AWD V6 is likely a good car. I wont be buying one so I dont care.

Got 3 falcons , 2 commodores , and a territory. So Iam sweet for cars for a while. Would get ZB if was V8, but also like a convertible mustang (once they put the supercharger on).

[IanC]

If the ZBs are mostly selling to rentals and fleets maybe we will see a load of second hand ones dumped on the market cheap in a year or two. Ten years ago you could get a 2 year old base model Falcon for $20,000. That was good buying. A two year old ZB for $18,000 would be attractive especially if it was a station wagon.

[MITCHAY]

After many months without spotting a ZB, I have been flooded this month and have seen 3.

Nice enough car but should have just stuck with the Insignia badge. Yeah but nah.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Apparently Holden aren’t getting anymore Commodores till next year.

As for Captiva it was still selling well even up to the end. These companies need to learn to not keep switching names, like with Ford on the Kuga Escape.

[GO FURTHER]

The question we should really be asking is...

Does the Holden brand need to survive?

Since Holden no longer manufactures any cars and just imports and rebadges, do we still need the local Holden brand?

Seems like the Y generation prefer Chevy badges on their Holdens anyway.

At least Ford for now, still makes vehicles and is a global brand.

[DFB FGXR6]

Originally Posted by Smoke Pursuit

Apparently Holden aren’t getting anymore Commodores till next year.

As for Captiva it was still selling well even up to the end. These companies need to learn to not keep switching names, like with Ford on the Kuga Escape.

Agree. I think its one of the many reasons for Toyota and Mazda's success. They have remained so consistent with model names and even trim names. People know what to expect.

Holden? Take mid sized sedans. Camera, Apollo, Vectra, Epica, Malibu and Insignia have all been marketed over years, meanwhile Toyota stuck with one name and there is no question as to what it is or who makes it.

[Windsor220]

Captiva has a terrible rep though. It only sells because it's so cheap.

[Syndrome]

Originally Posted by Smoke Pursuit

Apparently Holden aren’t getting anymore Commodores till next year.

That has to hurt. When they did the forecasts for the ZB it would have been much higher than 500/month.