Ford Announces New Engine Direction

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by RIPGMH

I would rather FoA shut up shop and go out with a bang then become the white goods producing limp wrists most car companies are these days.

Why dont we just import the mondeo, its a better car than most V6 Falcons will ever be. Drop the 6 all together, get the mondeo in and leave all Falcons to be V8's. Where does it stop is the question.

[RIPGMH]

Originally Posted by darkside

boy their are alot of opinions here ,all i got to say is that their are a few of my friends that have 6bangers ba/f's and they are ****ed : that i get better economy from my gt ,and its not even close on a trip ,we live for the future ...bring it on .....doc

If that was the case wouldn't there be a shiteload of V8 falcon taxis running around??

[VeloXR6]

Originally Posted by darkside

boy their are alot of opinions here ,all i got to say is that their are a few of my friends that have 6bangers ba/f's and they are ****ed : that i get better economy from my gt ,and its not even close on a trip ,we live for the future ...bring it on .....doc

Some of us love our 6bangers as much as you like your bent-8s...

but ford was alwyas better at 6 than holden ...now there is going to be f-all in it...

[Van D]

Originally Posted by RIPGMH

If you want economy buy a camry, I don't think I've talked to anyone that bought a falcon for its "economy"

Everyone IS buying a Camry. The the reason no-one buying a falcon is thinking of economy is the reason Ford is going under.

Hence my point, if you want Ford around in the future you better be glad they're making changes.

[RIPGMH]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Why dont we just import the mondeo, its a better car than most V6 Falcons will ever be. Drop the 6 all together, get the mondeo in and leave all Falcons to be V8's. Where does it stop is the question.

I'll tell you where it stops, with why does the Australian public even need a V8? These V6's produce plenty of power and torque, I think we can do without an 8 cylinder model.

[asusdragon]

lets not let ford do that again

[Van D]

Originally Posted by RIPGMH

I would rather FoA shut up shop and go out with a bang then become the white goods producing limp wrists most car companies are these days.

And you don't think this new engine could produce a nice bang? Fair enough it's a sad day, but no-one was complaining when they were driving US wheezers and clevo's around. In fact many people on these boards import their V8 parts from the US anyway, why can't it happen with the 6?

Besides, no-one complains about using foreign ZF's and what not either. It's just a hunk of metal under the hood. If we really wanted the I6 to stay, people shouldn't of being complaining about it 15 years ago and flocking to V8's, and it should have being far further developed far earlier like other 6's around the world.

It might be the best 6 Aus has, but that doesn't mean there's better across the ocean.

[Perana]

Originally Posted by VeloXR6

Some of us love our 6bangers as much as you like your bent-8s...

but ford was alwyas better at 6 than holden ...now there is going to be f-all in it...

Of course all V6's are identical! Just being inline instantly makes an engine 10000000 times better.. The old 202 Holden wasn't much of a motor.. but guess what that was an I6.

Go drive a Duratec (preferably a 35 or 37 but even a 3L would do but remember that our version has MANY improvements like VCT and extra capacity) then drive an Alloytec.. THEN come back and say there is f all in it

This place is full of damn keyboard warriors

[Van D]

Originally Posted by Perana XR8

Of course all V6's are identical! Just being inline instantly makes an engine 10000000 times better.. The old 202 Holden wasn't much of a motor.. but guess what that was an I6.

Go drive a Duratec (preferably a 35 or 37 but even a 3L would do) then drive an Alloytec.. THEN come back and say there is f all in it

This place is full of damn keyboard warriors

Agreed.

[VeloXR6]

Originally Posted by Raptor

If the main engine isn't an inline 6 the 2010 Aussie Ford just shouldn't be called a Falcon as far as I'm concerned, its time for a new name.

Let the Falcon nameplate go to that big scrapyard in the sky and join other icons like the Kingswood and Valiant.

I must agree ... the falcon must die with the I6

[VeloXR6]

Originally Posted by Perana XR8

This place is full of damn keyboard warriors

Like You

[RIPGMH]

Originally Posted by Perana XR8

Of course all V6's are identical! Just being inline instantly makes an engine 10000000 times better.. The old 202 Holden wasn't much of a motor.. but guess what that was an I6.

Go drive a Duratec (preferably a 35 or 37 but even a 3L would do but remember that our version has MANY improvements like VCT and extra capacity) then drive an Alloytec.. THEN come back and say there is f all in it

This place is full of damn keyboard warriors

Porsche also happen to believe in six cylinders in a straight line while your bagging the configuration. And for its day the red 202 is a far better motor than a poxy Alloytec.

[Perana]

Originally Posted by VeloXR6

Like You

Huh? Seeing i have actually DRIVEN cars containing some of these engines I can hardly see how you think that.

[VeloXR6]

Originally Posted by Perana XR8

Of course all V6's are identical! Just being inline instantly makes an engine 10000000 times better.. The old 202 Holden wasn't much of a motor.. but guess what that was an I6.

Go drive a Duratec (preferably a 35 or 37 but even a 3L would do but remember that our version has MANY improvements like VCT and extra capacity) then drive an Alloytec.. THEN come back and say there is f all in it

This place is full of damn keyboard warriors

So please what car do you own ????

Is it a BA XR8 ... if so or an earlier model , WTF do you care about the I6 ??


I care because I own one and 6 different models previous ,,, can you say that ????

please leave these threads to those who care and know WTF they are talking about.

[Iphido]

Very disapointed with this news for several reasons:
- The I6 made the falcon very unique in a market completely dominated by some very ordinary V6's
- The I6 had clear advantage in capacity in this market
- This resulted in a very relaxed and torquey engine that suited the Australian market
- The I6 was always at the pointy end of the field when it came to performance beating other 6's and most 8's (inc from its own house). The Turbo is proberly the best affordable RWD car engine ford has. It proberly single handedly kept the falcon selling through the tough times.

Australians are very synical about engines changes. I bet you could ask half a dozen car enthusists and most would still say the nissan engined ones were the best sixes ever to wear a holden badge. How much crap did the LS1 cop when it appeared. How about the HFV6, it gets bagged a lot. These engines have over 20kw power improvements over earlier models. Things are going to get worse before they get better.

Sorry Ford, the I6 is such a significant part of the falcon. Looking at recent decisions with Orion and now the loss of the I6, I think I will be saying bye bye to Ford.

Problems with the V6:
- Designed for smaller cars in europe and the US. Heavily motivated by huge FWD car sales, any RWD application will be a secondary concideration.
- Lower capacity (see above)
- Higher RPM for power and torque (see above)
- Hence less relaxed crusing
- Less unique engine character
- More cost and complication for turbo varient
- Additional cost and complication with DI varients
- Less proven capabilities in the harsh Australian enviroment and driving styles

Given Ford is struggling in the V8 market (soon to be abandoned again!?), I can't imagine a move to a smaller, less unique V6 is going to be a positive one.

For this to be a positive move, we would be talking about atleast a 4.0 or greater capacity 60 degree V6 with a nearly square bore:stroke ratio. Made out of aluminium with high alloy component ratio. Power would have to be atleast 20kw above previous levels (atleast 210kw) and torque to be no less than ~95% of current levels. On top of this a turbo varient with 600Nm of torque and over 300kw of power from the factory with potential for more than this.. I doubt we will see a falcon six ever again with the potential of the current Turbo.

I don't see this happening. Penny wise, pound foolish. What they will lose is something that cannot be replaced by marketing $'s and the slight advantage in packaging.

Lets see what getting chopped:
-Fairlane and LTD, Chopped
-Inline six (inc turbo) chopped
-5.4 L V8 SOHC chopped
-Wagon chopped
-Question marks over regular V8 lineup, atleast remaining competitive with other V8's (hemi and Commodore)
-Extensive orion make over, watered down? (come on, the changes are pretty superfical really)

What we see here is the problems in the US operations impacting on Australian product design.

My prediction in 5 years:
-No hot six
-Only 1 model in the ford lineup with a V8
-Manual transmission to be discontinued

[rodderz]

Probably one of the fastest growing threads we've had here, and it's a good one too, BUT

Maybe we should all cool off and settle for a bit while we think of what the new donk may be like instead of degenerating it into a slanging match and focusing on D-Day. Not to say you're not entitled to opinions but to look at it from both sides would be greatly beneficial

[VeloXR6]

Originally Posted by Iphido

Very disapointed with this news for several reasons:
- The I6 made the falcon very unique in a market completely dominated by some very ordinary V6's
- The I6 had clear advantage in capacity in this market
- This resulted in a very relaxed and torquey engine that suited the Australian market
- The I6 was always at the pointy end of the field when it came to performance beating other 6's and most 8's (inc from its own house). The Turbo is proberly the best affordable RWD car engine ford has. It proberly single handedly kept the falcon selling through the tough times.

Australians are very synical about engines changes. I bet you could ask half a dozen car enthusists and most would still say the nissan engined ones were the best sixes ever to wear a holden badge. How much crap did the LS1 cop when it appeared. How about the HFV6, it gets bagged a lot. These engines have over 20kw power improvements over earlier models. Things are going to get worse before they get better.

Sorry Ford, the I6 is such a significant part of the falcon. Looking at recent decisions with Orion and now the loss of the I6, I think I will be saying bye bye to Ford.

Problems with the V6:
- Designed for smaller cars in europe and the US. Heavily motivated by huge FWD car sales, any RWD application will be a secondary concideration.
- Lower capacity (see above)
- Higher RPM for power and torque (see above)
- Hence less relaxed crusing
- Less unique engine character
- More cost and complication for turbo varient
- Additional cost and complication with DI varients
- Less proven capabilities in the harsh Australian enviroment and driving styles

Given Ford is struggling in the V8 market (soon to be abandoned again!?), I can't imagine a move to a smaller, less unique V6 is going to be a positive one.

For this to be a positive move, we would be talking about atleast a 4.0 or greater capacity 60 degree V6 with a nearly square bore:stroke ratio. Made out of aluminium with high alloy component ratio. Power would have to be atleast 20kw above previous levels (atleast 210kw) and torque to be no less than ~95% of current levels. On top of this a turbo varient with 600Nm of torque and over 300kw of power from the factory with potential for more than this.. I doubt we will see a falcon six ever again with the potential of the current Turbo.

I don't see this happening. Penny wise, pound foolish. What they will lose is something that cannot be replaced by marketing $'s and the slight advantage in packaging.

Lets see what getting chopped:
-Fairlane and LTD, Chopped
-Inline six (inc turbo) chopped
-5.4 L V8 SOHC chopped
-Wagon chopped
-Question marks over regular V8 lineup, atleast remaining competitive with other V8's (hemi and Commodore)
-Extensive orion make over, watered down? (come on, the changes are pretty superfical really)

What we see here is the problems in the US operations impacting on Australian product design.

My prediction in 5 years:
-No hot six
-Only 1 model in the ford lineup with a V8
-Manual transmission to be discontinued

Yep....

[Perana]

Originally Posted by RIPGMH

Porsche also happen to believe in six cylinders in a straight line while your bagging the configuration. And for its day the red 202 is a far better motor than a poxy Alloytec.

Where is Porsche's I6.. I dont recall them having any engine with 6 cylinders in a row apart from their race Flat 12's....

Im NOT arguing that V6 is better than I6 on paper in fact i agree that I6 has better dynamics ON PAPER.. I'm arguing that there is nothing wrong with a Duratec engined Falcon that WILL be smoother and more efficient than the old engine despite the V6 being at a dynamic balance disadvantage. IMO the BEST case for FoA would have been an all new I6.. but for our market that would never ever happen.

The difference to what ON PAPER is better and what actually is better is vastly different in the real world..

[Van D]

Originally Posted by RIPGMH

Porsche also happen to believe in six cylinders in a straight line while your bagging the configuration. And for its day the red 202 is a far better motor than a poxy Alloytec.

Mate, i'm sure Porsche has a lot more money than Ford and can afford to run it's I6 program, Ford can't.

[asusdragon]

Originally Posted by RIPGMH

Porsche also happen to believe in six cylinders in a straight line while your bagging the configuration. And for its day the red 202 is a far better motor than a poxy Alloytec.

i got a six boat witha red 202 in it and it does pull pretty well and other then the different manifold for boat use the motor is pretty much untouch and well i cant complain bout it and for boat use its pretty much either inline 6 or v8 for the low torque you need

[Perana]

Originally Posted by VeloXR6

So please what car do you own ????

Is it a BA XR8 ... if so or an earlier model , WTF do you care about the I6 ??


I care because I own one and 6 different models previous ,,, can you say that ????

please leave these threads to those who care and know WTF they are talking about.

No its not even a V8.. FYI My main car is an AU6 engined EA, My Partner owns an I6 ED, Parents own an AU XR6 (which i have done a LOT of miles in), Also own an XE 6cyl. I have also had a fair bit of experience in driving BA I6's sure they are nice engines but their time is up. I care because I look forward to still being able to buy a new falcon in 10 years time.

Why don't I know WTF I am talking about... You obviously have no idea how business works if you can seriously think that it doesn't make Business sense to pour the money from the I6 program into a Global V6, that WILL be more efficient and a better choice.

[Van D]

Originally Posted by Iphido

Very disapointed with this news for several reasons:
- The I6 made the falcon very unique in a market completely dominated by some very ordinary V6's True
- The I6 had clear advantage in capacity in this market Understandable
- This resulted in a very relaxed and torquey engine that suited the Australian market Judging by current sales, completely False
- The I6 was always at the pointy end of the field when it came to performance beating other 6's and most 8's (inc from its own house). The Turbo is proberly the best affordable RWD car engine ford has. It proberly single handedly kept the falcon selling through the tough times. The new 6 perhaps, but the pre BA 6 was nothing to get excited about. Look around at 6cyl competitions and see how many 265 Hemi's still end up on top

Australians are very synical about engines changes. I bet you could ask half a dozen car enthusists and most would still say the nissan engined ones were the best sixes ever to wear a holden badge. How much crap did the LS1 cop when it appeared. How about the HFV6, it gets bagged a lot. These engines have over 20kw power improvements over earlier models. Things are going to get worse before they get better. Things may be worse before better but it's better than just being worse.

Sorry Ford, the I6 is such a significant part of the falcon. Looking at recent decisions with Orion and now the loss of the I6, I think I will be saying bye bye to Ford.

Problems with the V6:
- Designed for smaller cars in europe and the US. Heavily motivated by huge FWD car sales, any RWD application will be a secondary concideration. Have you driven the cars these engines are in, or even know what cars the 35 is in?
- Lower capacity (see above) Still produces more power
- Higher RPM for power and torque (see above) True, but it's early in development
- Hence less relaxed crusing Have you driven one?
- Less unique engine character 99% of people couldn't care less
- More cost and complication for turbo varient Is this proven on this engine? If so, please show me
- Additional cost and complication with DI varients How do you know this already?
- Less proven capabilities in the harsh Australian enviroment and driving styles The engine isn't even being used over here yet, how do you know?

Given Ford is struggling in the V8 market (soon to be abandoned again!?), I can't imagine a move to a smaller, less unique V6 is going to be a positive one. I can, it's more economical.

For this to be a positive move, we would be talking about atleast a 4.0 or greater capacity 60 degree V6 with a nearly square bore:stroke ratio. Made out of aluminium with high alloy component ratio. Power would have to be atleast 20kw above previous levels (atleast 210kw) and torque to be no less than ~95% of current levels. On top of this a turbo varient with 600Nm of torque and over 300kw of power from the factory with potential for more than this.. I doubt we will see a falcon six ever again with the potential of the current Turbo. The 35 already has these power figures basically

I don't see this happening. Penny wise, pound foolish. What they will lose is something that cannot be replaced by marketing $'s and the slight advantage in packaging.

Lets see what getting chopped:
-Fairlane and LTD, Chopped
-Inline six (inc turbo) chopped
-5.4 L V8 SOHC chopped
-Wagon chopped
-Question marks over regular V8 lineup, atleast remaining competitive with other V8's (hemi and Commodore)
-Extensive orion make over, watered down? (come on, the changes are pretty superfical really)

What we see here is the problems in the US operations impacting on Australian product design. Of course, it's a global company.

Bold points.

[Van D]

Originally Posted by VeloXR6

So please what car do you own ????

Is it a BA XR8 ... if so or an earlier model , WTF do you care about the I6 ??


I care because I own one and 6 different models previous ,,, can you say that ????

please leave these threads to those who care and know WTF they are talking about.

And for the record, I love my inline 6's. I'm only 19 but i've owned 3 different falc's with a 250. The family has also owned (at least since I was born), an XD, XE, EA, ED, EL and BA. All in I6 variants. Like I said, i'm sad to see it go, but i'd be even sadder to see Ford go.

[VeloXR6]

Originally Posted by Perana XR8

No its not even a V8.. FYI My main car is an AU6 engined EA, My Partner owns an I6 ED, Parents own an AU XR6 (which i have done a LOT of miles in), Also own an XE 6cyl. I have also had a fair bit of experience in driving BA I6's sure they are nice engines but their time is up. I care because I look forward to still being able to buy a new falcon in 10 years time.

Why don't I know WTF I am talking about... You obviously have no idea how business works if you can seriously think that it doesn't make Business sense to pour the money from the I6 program into a Global V6, that WILL be more efficient and a better choice.

Look, no disrespect to you,

I have owned BA's , Au's EL, EF, EB, EA, XF, XD, XB etc etc....

I am only 33 Yo but Ihave had alot of falcons and Am extreemly passionate about my I6 ... I love them and will miss them...

Fortunately I can afford what I wnt these days and am saddened by the demise of my favorite engine, something that I think set ford apart from holden in a very big way...

[RPO83]

Originally Posted by DeathXR

So much misinformation in this thread, it's horrible.

Ford WILL NOT just retrench 600 when production stops in 2010. Put your brains into gear people.

In 3 years, people will retire - not just some of the 600, people in areas like the stamping plant which isn't closing. Ford also TRAIN people, if you've ever done a tour of the Geelong plant and heard the tour guides talk, they will explain people get opportunities to get training, not just when jobs are moving on, but any time. What do you think the people who were replaced by robots in the stamping plant did? They retired, or got other jobs either within or outside Ford.

You've also read articles about the $$ investment in Product Development in Geelong. Who knows what other jobs that could potentially create?

When Mitsu closed their engine plant, they just closed it. Ford has given advanced warning, and I'm sure all of those workers won't be treated poorly at all.

V6 or I6, it stays a Falcon. Commodore didn't change names for an engine config change, nor should Falcon.

It is definitely a sound business decision, even if it upsets a few enthusiasts. The average Joe doesn't even know the difference between V6 and I6, and some of the motoring reporters who covered the initial murmerings of this announcement didn't seem to know either!

Who knows, maybe my next locally built Ford will be a Duratorq (not Duratec) powered vehicle - I can hope anyway. All this talk about torque and the diesels have it in spades.

Imagine coming home to read this thead and forgetting to bring your power pack home for your laptop. All I can say is i'm glad I bought the 7hr battery with this machine!

Another great post that I had to quote purely because it makes the most sense here. Why can't Ford Communications get something out that puts emphasis on the reasoning behind what they are doing and how it is better so the crazed I6er's can absorb something first before dishing out some truely baseless garbage. A big day for Ford to communicate a clear message...what was McAlary doing today???

[VeloXR6]

Originally Posted by RPO83

Imagine coming home to read this thead and forgetting to bring your power pack home for your laptop. All I can say is i'm glad I bought the 7hr battery with this machine!

Another great post that I had to quote purely because it makes the most sense here. Why can't Ford Communications get something out that puts emphasis on the reasoning behind what they are doing and how it is better so the crazed I6er's can absorb something first before dishing out some truely baseless garbage. A big day for Ford to communicate a clear message...what was McAlary doing today???

Imagine being the poor astard from ford told to " Release a nice statement that will keep the fans happy"

Unfortunately I have worked for large corporate and know how much the top tier cares.... F - All...

[Perana]

Don't get me wrong I am saddened by this as well. But I have an open mind to new engines and I will reserve my absolute final judgement about the new engine when it's over here.. Will definitely be having a drive of the CX9 when that comes out. But from my inital impressions of the 3.0L Duratec I think it's going to go quite well in the Falcon once it is 3.7L and with VCT, DI etc. the Twin Turbo version in development looks quite nice too...

I don't think losing the I6 is the end of the world. For me it would be much worse if I wasn't able to buy a Falcon at all.. I'll gladly take a V6 RWD Falcon over none at all. My main concern is for the workers, especially since I personally know a couple of them, I am at least glad ford seems to be attempting to do right by them.

[rodderz]

Originally Posted by RPO83

Why can't Ford Communications get something out that puts emphasis on the reasoning behind what they are doing and how it is better so the crazed I6er's can absorb something first before dishing out some truely baseless garbage. A big day for Ford to communicate a clear message...what was McAlary doing today???

Have to agree, whether the media havent mentioned everything (unless there is a transcript of the Ford release?) or not the reasons behind the whole decision could of been explained and eased up the minds of worried people. Unless there is news that they cant release due to being part of future company plans and models

[VeloXR6]

Originally Posted by Perana XR8

Don't get me wrong I am saddened by this as well. But I have an open mind to new engines and I will reserve my absolute final judgement about the new engine when it's over here.. Will definitely be having a drive of the CX9 when that comes out. But from my inital impressions of the 3.0L Duratec I think it's going to go quite well in the Falcon once it is 3.7L and with VCT, DI etc. the Twin Turbo version in development looks quite nice too...

I don't think losing the I6 is the end of the world. For me it would be much worse if I wasn't able to buy a Falcon at all.. I'll gladly take a V6 RWD Falcon over none at all. My main concern is for the workers, especially since I personally know a couple of them, I am at least glad ford seems to be attempting to do right by them.

That sets me apart from you....

to me it is the end of the world ... and the end of my financial relationship with ford....

[Perana]

Originally Posted by rodderz

Have to agree, whether the media havent mentioned everything (unless there is a transcript of the Ford release?) or not the reasons behind the whole decision could of been explained and eased up the minds of worried people. Unless there is news that they cant release due to being part of future company plans and models

Yes I agree as well. I don't think the release was handled that well. Ch10 News are reporting that FoA are "axing" 600 jobs, when that is clearly not the case when you take into account retraining etc. Typical Media i guess..

Originally Posted by VeloXR6

That sets me apart from you....

to me it is the end of the world ... and the end of my financial relationship with ford....

And that is your choice.. but no offense to you but you are in the minority in the buying public. Most people do not know what the difference between an I6 and a V6 is, in fact of those that know a small amount most will think that a V6 is superior because that's what everyone uses. It is only enthusiasts who really know much about what actually drives our cars and what the on-paper advantages of certain configurations are over others.