My FGX XR8 denied warranty

[2242100]

Originally Posted by Stefan

Compare a FGX time slip with an XR6T timeslip from a diffent day / track means the FGX is not tuned.....WOW...

LOL

You see Stefan, there was enough information in his posts (on the other thread) and on the portion of the time slip that was shown, to give me just two possible dates that the car apparently went down the track, both Wednesday nights.
Armed with that, I looked up historical weather data for those dates and apparently overall air conditions on both nights were similar to what I had. ie similarly power friendly.

I know the SAE corrections very well and it's clear to me that he would have had a similar relative power percentage figure to what I had and the other 3 cars weren't too different.
Note too that I was concentrating on rolling acceleration and half track/end speeds, because these won't be effected much by the quality of a cars launch.

Perhaps like me you could have thought a bit more before your WOW post.

[Windsor220]

I haven't read this whole thread but was the car bounced off the rev limiter in a burnout before racing? I'm not familiar with Ford's software but there is a chance they can view that through the scan tool. If so then that would be enough to void warranty.

[2242100]

Originally Posted by Windsor220

I haven't read this whole thread but was the car bounced off the rev limiter in a burnout before racing? I'm not familiar with Ford's software but there is a chance they can view that through the scan tool. If so then that would be enough to void warranty.

I think you need to keep in mind that the limiter is there to stop an engine being damaged. Also it would be very easy with a fast car like an XR8 to accidentally hit the limiter in 1st gear when driving manually. I guess repeatedly hitting the limiter over a long period wouldn't look good though.

[superfly]

Sorry to hear of your woes Kempy. I hope you get an amicable fix for your car. I saw lots of this years ago when I had my WRX. Subaru was denying warranty left, right and centre.

When I posted the original thread I did not know it was you. I'm unsure as to why that thread got locked seeing your mrs posted up on Facebook about it which is probably more "public domain" than right here on this forum. If she didn't want people to know, she wouldn't have posted it on Facebook right? Anyways, I do hope you get it sorted somehow.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by 2242100

I guess repeatedly hitting the limiter over a long period wouldn't look good though.

Define long.

IIRC, years ago, when Jag were developing their V8, one of the reliability tests was to run the engine at redline for 12hours continuously, or some similarly ridiculous figure.

One burnout and/or a drag is enough to lunch a Miami? Maybe Ford need to outsource R&D.... no one take offence, that comment is firmly tongue in cheek :P

Seriously though, these cars are marketed by way of reviews, and those reviews involve track work and drags. If its ok to spruik your performance credentials to sell the car, its a bit hypocritical to deny an owner 'fair usage' ... and we're not talking flogging it day in day out. But a one off drag should surely not push the car beyond its operating window?

[Super Roo 1970]

Ford can get a very comprehensive readout from the PCM on all events that have taken place with these cars. If deemed necessary the PCM's are removed and sent to Ford to be downloaded, read and analyzed properly.
They can download a lot more information than just a flash count. Iv seen a few, they go into a lot of detail for any recorded events, max engine speeds, trans shift at what rpms just to name 2 of many other stats it records.

This may be the next step to what Ford will do, do a diagnosis on the mechanical fault while sending off the PCM for a full readout.

[Blem]

I had my car picked up from the Mallala track by FPV roadside assistance.
Had semi slicks on, gerry cans in the back, helmet etc.
Car was fixed under warranty.
Ended up being timing chain tensioner & a guide. Chain skipped a cog or two.
My track day was not a" timed event" tho...

[te5000]

I know of a BA XR8 that had "Extras", exhaust, CAI and tune, done by a ford dealer. Sold with a warranty as normal. They were using this car as a demo when I drove it.
Some guy bought it then moved away to QLD, later that year the tranny died, from the feedback I received from the original dealer the poor bloke had hells own trouble getting the tranny repaired / replaced under warranty.
Not exactly sure but think he ended up having a part payment deal done with the original dealer

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by Super Roo 1970

Ford can get a very comprehensive readout from the PCM on all events that have taken place with these cars. If deemed necessary the PCM's are removed and sent to Ford to be downloaded, read and analyzed properly.
They can download a lot more information than just a flash count. Iv seen a few, they go into a lot of detail for any recorded events, max engine speeds, trans shift at what rpms just to name 2 of many other stats it records.

This may be the next step to what Ford will do, do a diagnosis on the mechanical fault while sending off the PCM for a full readout.

Fine, although what if all that data is stored on the spare PCM that's been modified, and the factory PCM is reinstalled for warranty claims?

[2242100]

Originally Posted by Super Roo 1970

Ford can get a very comprehensive readout from the PCM on all events that have taken place with these cars. If deemed necessary the PCM's are removed and sent to Ford to be downloaded, read and analyzed properly.
They can download a lot more information than just a flash count. Iv seen a few, they go into a lot of detail for any recorded events, max engine speeds, trans shift at what rpms just to name 2 of many other stats it records.

This may be the next step to what Ford will do, do a diagnosis on the mechanical fault while sending off the PCM for a full readout.

That's interesting and I guess not surprising, but I'm wondering how far they can go back, how many engine cycles and what happens if the battery is disconnected.


Does anyone know?

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by 2242100

That's interesting and I guess not surprising, but I'm wondering how far they can go back, how many engine cycles and what happens if the battery is disconnected.


Does anyone know?

One would assume todays or even ECUs in the last 10 years or so would have decent capabilities to keep things stored in memory that doesn't get reset when you disconnect the battery.

We're not talking EEC-V here

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

One would assume todays or even ECUs in the last 10 years or so would have decent capabilities to keep things stored in memory that doesn't get reset when you disconnect the battery.

We're not talking EEC-V here

It holds the data logging. Ford (not the dealers) are the only ones that can read it IIRC....they're also the only ones that can rid of the flags.

[Grum]

Originally Posted by F6 Concorde

Fine, although what if all that data is stored on the spare PCM that's been modified, and the factory PCM is reinstalled for warranty claims?

You would assume there would be an obvious disparity between the total KM of recorder data and the KM traveled on the dash. Granted the dash could be changed at the same time but at what stage have you spent more time and money than a potential warranty claim? Remember most that are going to the expense of tuning are also fitting supporting mods (exhaust, intake etc and in the case of a 335 there would be more model specific upgrades).

[Whitey-AMG]

Does the PCM store KLM travelled data ?

[richo77]

Originally Posted by Bluey-GT

Does the PCM store KLM travelled data ?

If it doesn't you'll find that the sat nav system holds some handy information in the background such as top speed travelled.

[OzJavelin]

Originally Posted by richo77

If it doesn't you'll find that the sat nav system holds some handy information in the background such as top speed travelled.

Ahh .. now we are touching on a mindset change for modern car lovers. All the information your car is logging about you which potentially - short of a fire which destroyed all the electronics - may be almost permanently kept in the system (or also uploaded via the very convenient internet link cars often now have too)

I haven't bothered to investigate, but I find it hard to believe that cars won't already have permanent, long-term, solid-state storage from an array of sensor inputs - SatNav, ABS, ESC, ECU, etc - that can effectively "flight record" a vehicle to be replayed to manufacturer (and/or authorities) .... all of it encrypted so that it can't be messed with by those without the private key (i.e. the factory).

People getting around this by mucking with the sensor inputs (eg. reflashing) probably make their presence obvious by the absence of information.

All speculation, but I suspect it's here/coming ..

[MAGPIE]

Originally Posted by OzJavelin

I haven't bothered to investigate, but I find it hard to believe that cars won't already have permanent, long-term, solid-state storage from an array of sensor inputs - SatNav, ABS, ESC, ECU, etc - that can effectively "flight record" a vehicle to be replayed to manufacturer (and/or authorities) .... all of it encrypted so that it can't be messed with by those without the private key (i.e. the factory).

Has already happened here in NZ, the Police used the stored data as evidence to convict a HSV driver who cleaned up an innocent motorist.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by F6 Concorde

Fine, although what if all that data is stored on the spare PCM that's been modified, and the factory PCM is reinstalled for warranty claims?

Would there not then be a gap in the date log?

[MDS69]

Originally Posted by richo77

If it doesn't you'll find that the sat nav system holds some handy information in the background such as top speed travelled.

I recall a story in the last 3 years or so of a NSW HWP officer being counselled/sacked/disciplined - whatever ,for travelling at an excessive speed on the F6 whilst not being involved in a pursuit or job.
They retrieved data from the car but I don't know if it was GMH fitted gear ie BCM or NSWPOL fitted accessories.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by F6 Concorde

Fine, although what if all that data is stored on the spare PCM that's been modified, and the factory PCM is reinstalled for warranty claims?

Are you suggesting the owner has two PCMs? I'm pretty sure that would come up as well, I think a PCM is VIN locked to the car it was in

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Are you suggesting the owner has two PCMs? I'm pretty sure that would come up as well, I think a PCM is VIN locked to the car it was in

Most certainly not, in no way am I suggesting this is the case.

All I'm saying is if Ford are looking at the PCM to determine whether it has been flash or modified, and I've been using another PCM which I've been modifying, they've no way of telling what's gone on.

I'm not sure if there is a date/time stamp on the PCM, neither to I know whether there is a trip counter. Maybe the BCM will hold this info.

[NTF6]

Originally Posted by Windsor220

I haven't read this whole thread but was the car bounced off the rev limiter in a burnout before racing? I'm not familiar with Ford's software but there is a chance they can view that through the scan tool. If so then that would be enough to void warranty.

Sorry but I've read all of the booklets and owners manual that came with my new F6 and I'm struggling to find the part where it states that if I hit the rev limit I void my warranty, maybe I'm blind but I can't see it.

[Windsor220]

Originally Posted by NTF6

Sorry but I've read all of the booklets and owners manual that came with my new F6 and I'm struggling to find the part where it states that if I hit the rev limit I void my warranty, maybe I'm blind but I can't see it.

I haven't read a Falcon owners manual lately so I cant comment on that. For my own car which is a Mitsubishi the manual says dont rev the engine into the red zone (so beyond the red line) as it can cause engine damage. Warranty is voided for inappropriate use and I'm guessing that would cover over revving. I know that engines can withstand being revved to the cut out but manufacturers dont really like you testing it out.

[5.8]

Originally Posted by Bluey-GT

Does the PCM store KLM travelled data ?

That's a bit of a sus question to ask Bluey GT. I'd be a bit cautious about buying a "low km" car off you

[EASYBOSS]

Did it get picked up, and did they give you a loan car this time

[asagaai]

Originally Posted by Windsor220

I haven't read a Falcon owners manual lately so I cant comment on that. For my own car which is a Mitsubishi the manual says dont rev the engine into the red zone (so beyond the red line) as it can cause engine damage. Warranty is voided for inappropriate use and I'm guessing that would cover over revving. I know that engines can withstand being revved to the cut out but manufacturers dont really like you testing it out.

Hands up who when driving a manual around a favoured bend in a "spirited" fashion has kept the boot in, hands on the steering wheel doing the yawing to extract all from the road, and the engine bounces off the limiter while you for that moment are unable to change gears cause your hands are engaged keeping the car on the road.

The XR8 is a sedan marketed as the sporting model. I cannot accept that Ford would argue that driving the vehicle in a spirited fashion and having the revs bounce off the limiter every once in a while is misuse such as to deny warranty.

Huh- when I took an XR8 auto in auto for a test run, I struggled when manually changing gears to not hit the limiter, given how fast it revs out-really catches one out.

All these discussions are in a vacuum as regards Ford's position. My suspicion is that Ford has some evidence which leads them to believe that the OPs car was custom flashed with a more aggressive tune, and as to the precise reasoning why they think that (ie PCM data on percentage throttle openings etc etc we will have to wait and see with time if that comes out).

[Express]

It’s not like the old days when you over revved an engine it fell into a deep dark hole.

Today’s electronics have a rev limiter for a reason, to protect the engine, if it’s doing its job you should be able to bounce off it all day without damage.

If it’s doesn’t protect the engine then the parameters are set wrong.

I would think Ford and all manufacturers would do what they are known for, they’d be over cautious and the rev limiter settings would be given plenty of scope to react before any damage can occur.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by asagaai

Hands up who when driving a manual around a favoured bend in a "spirited" fashion has kept the boot in, hands on the steering wheel doing the yawing to extract all from the road, and the engine bounces off the limiter while you for that moment are unable to change gears cause your hands are engaged keeping the car on the road.

The XR8 is a sedan marketed as the sporting model. I cannot accept that Ford would argue that driving the vehicle in a spirited fashion and having the revs bounce off the limiter every once in a while is misuse such as to deny warranty.

Huh- when I took an XR8 auto in auto for a test run, I struggled when manually changing gears to not hit the limiter, given how fast it revs out-really catches one out.

All these discussions are in a vacuum as regards Ford's position. My suspicion is that Ford has some evidence which leads them to believe that the OPs car was custom flashed with a more aggressive tune, and as to the precise reasoning why they think that (ie PCM data on percentage throttle openings etc etc we will have to wait and see with time if that comes out).

You can hit the limiter in a 6 speed auto. You won't lose your drive train warranty hitting the limiter. As has been discussed earlier the XR8 is only at 60% throttle and not 100% as what is being said this XR8 was at.

[Windsor220]

Its really no different to the performance companies on here that offer big horse power upgrade packages with full warranty*. *warranty void if raced. I argued that you shouldn't be advertising it with warranty if you cant use the product with out voiding it.

[Whitey-AMG]

Originally Posted by 5.8

That's a bit of a sus question to ask Bluey GT. I'd be a bit cautious about buying a "low km" car off you

Legitimate question.
Reason I ask is if the PCM is flash tuned , does it keep certain parameters intact. Example would be if car is continually tuned and it somehow wipes certain data that doesn't match with ODOMETER reading or ABS computer readings etc, then that could be one way that they could also ascertain if ECU was tampered with in this case.