Ford throws Falcon a RWD lifeline

[Falc'man]

Mustang and Falcon may share many parts but not a platform.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

Mustang and Falcon may share many parts but not a platform.

Of course not and here's the Clue from Jay Mays,
The 2014 50th Anniversary Mustang launches in late 2013 with all new platform,
that work has already started but FoA have still to decide on next Gen Falcon.

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Lincoln version of Explorer was called Aviator.....



Yes, but would Holden take the bait........

I thought it was lincoln 'Navigator' or is that a different car (maybe expedition based)??

To be honest this is nothing new for those that pay attention to these things. Its still too early to confirm anything due to negotiations with governments, changes in the world economy etc. But it is getting closer and its clear that with FG and new Territory these will be the last 'aus specific' platformed cars. How this all throws out in the end will also depend on discussions between ford aus and ford US as to market share, sale rates, cost efficiencies and the simple facts of what the cars need. There is no point sharing a platform if it is going to seriously compromise one or more of the cars you are going to put on it....

Fact is that given Ford Aus role in T6 Ford USA know what they can do and know they have expertise in RWD. If they need a Mustang/licoln RWD platform than either way Ford Aus would design it (or be heavilly involved). Given that, if Ford AUs can THEN make a case to top hat this into a localy made (and profitably made) Falcon then what does Ford global care?? If it is going to make more money for Ford Aus to build a local Falcon off GRWD in the medium-long term than just importing (or building locally....doubt this though) an FWD large car alternative than why wouldn't Ford USA approve it? They might have their own ideologies but Mullaly is no mug and is very much about getting the car 'people want'.

I'm always amazed how the biggest doomsayers of the Falcon future (of all motoring stripes) are almost always the least informed. In reality Holden is just as likely to go FWD for some or all Commodore models as Ford is for the Falcon...something recent media reports have confirmed. Alot of guys act as if the decision was already taken to can the RWD falcon. FFS not all company executives are telling prokes all the time!!! Ok maybe the GM ones do!!!

EDIT: as per Falc'mann and jpd80 post above i'm not saying that Ford Aus would soley be responsible. If mustang can't fit on the GRWD platform than so be it the important thing is maximising the cost efficiencies. For me i've alawys suspect lincoln RWD has alot more to do with Falcon/GRWD than the mustang ever did. Its a very much niche product with its own priorities and viability.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

I thought it was lincoln 'Navigator' or is that a different car (maybe expedition based)??

Yes, Navigator is F150 based and Aviator was BOF Explorer based.

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

EDIT: as per Falc'mann and jpd80 post above i'm not saying that Ford Aus would soley be responsible. If mustang can't fit on the GRWD platform than so be it the important thing is maximising the cost efficiencies. For me i've alawys suspect lincoln RWD has alot more to do with Falcon/GRWD than the mustang ever did. Its a very much niche product with its own priorities and viability.

Falcon is not being made to go away, the top brass like it,
this interview with Jay Mays has some interesting hints
about 2014 Mustang ...LINK

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Yes, Navigator is F150 based and Aviator was BOF Explorer based.



Falcon is not being made to go away, the top brass like it,
this interview with Jay Mays has some interesting hints
about 2014 Mustang ...LINK

Transcript of Jay mays interview regarding 2014 Mustang:

Question:
Now that the Mustang has the right mix of both modern and heritage cues,
where does the exterior design go from here?
- Dave via Facebook

Jay Mays:
OK Dave, thanks for the probably hardest question that everyone's asking,
you're not the only one to Ask, "where does Mustang go from here?"

Look, approaching 50 years of Mustang, How exciting is that. '64 1/2, '65
that was the absolute greatest Mustang which was the original, '66, '67,
those were great, everything was on track up until 1969 Mustang.

We went through some bleak years with Mustang but everyone hung on
because it was a fantastic nameplate. We've got the car back up on the
tracks as I like to say in 2005 and that was a big hit because we created
a nice balance between retro cues and modern styling. 2010 drove that
message home even more but now we can't simply do an evolution
of the 2005/2010 cars.

With 2014 approaching, we have got to take a jump forward, we can't
lose the Mustang DNA which is really important but we've got to signal
that Mustang has another 50 years of life left in it. In order to do that,
we're going to have to take a bit more of a stretch with the car, bring
all of our Mustang faithful along with us and I would be lying to you if
I said that's not a daunting challenge but the good news is that we've
got a design team that is up for that challenge and we're on it.

So, stay tuned approaching 2013, you'll see a very cool Mustang.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

EDIT: as per Falc'mann and jpd80 post above i'm not saying that Ford Aus would soley be responsible. If mustang can't fit on the GRWD platform than so be it the important thing is maximising the cost efficiencies. For me i've alawys suspect lincoln RWD has alot more to do with Falcon/GRWD than the mustang ever did. Its a very much niche product with its own priorities and viability.

I think you'll find that most of the work has already been done with the E8/FG platform - they seem to be looking at the future RWD platform as being an evolution of E8. So what you may find is that, whilst work has been going on behind the scenes to develop that further, there will come a point that Australia can't do much more without passing it off to the Mustang team for the Mustang specific design (rear end, floor pressing, passenger cell etc). I would expect that 2014 Mustang to be using an evolution of the E8's front suspension and chassis and use something similar to what it has now in the rear. Just maybe with IRS.

[FalconXV]

seeing as the Mustang weighs 300 kgs less than Falcon, Hopefully that means the next platform will be lighter still, resulting in Falcon going down to the mustangs lower weight category....

[Road_Warrior]

Mustang is a slightly smaller car don't forget.

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

I think you'll find that most of the work has already been done with the E8/FG platform - they seem to be looking at the future RWD platform as being an evolution of E8. So what you may find is that, whilst work has been going on behind the scenes to develop that further, there will come a point that Australia can't do much more without passing it off to the Mustang team for the Mustang specific design (rear end, floor pressing, passenger cell etc). I would expect that 2014 Mustang to be using an evolution of the E8's front suspension and chassis and use something similar to what it has now in the rear. Just maybe with IRS.

You have probably got that about right. I think the IRS will get the boot coming into the next gen. The control blade has done well considering the requirements of the time (cost/weight etc.) but it has started to reach the limit of what can reasonably be expected in future forms RE HP and latest suspension design. Its already been optimised for RWD in Aus form so can't see how mustang could get away with it (given their penchant for full bore launches....). The europeans seem happy with just tinkering with it RE their FWD/AWD cars but that won't do for the GRWD.

Still, you are dead right in so far as the front end. You take the E8, put a new multilink IRS in it and that will be more than enough for Falcon to maintain its competitiveness. Its the front cowl/long bonnet that will cause bigger problems RE mustang versus lincoln/falcon. I'd say mustang will share rear (and perhaps front) suspension and drivetrain components (assuming the I6 eventually goes...) but that is about it. Lincoln on the other hand could take the E8 as is and with a stretch get two different luxury cars (short and long) easilly enough. Could see the fairlaine return too as a result (though i'm not sold on that).

[388cube_edxr8]

I don't get it. Why must the Falcon either conform to the Mustang platform or get replaced with the Taurus?

Why can't the Taurus be replaced with the Falcon, or the Mustang get a little bigger?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by 388cube_edxr8

I don't get it. Why must the Falcon either conform to the Mustang platform or get replaced with the Taurus?

Why can't the Taurus be replaced with the Falcon, or the Mustang get a little bigger?

Ford has never put that ultimatum on its Australian division, so long as
the RWD Falcon business case is there, a local vehicle will remain in place.
It is Ford Australia that continually reevaluates its position before starting
the next design cycle, they are required to review existing products within
Ford globally first before confirming that a regional design is required.

As far as platforms go, people (Journos) don't understand that the cost
savings are mostly at supplier level and combining power trains, electricals
and suspension components (if possible) can save a lot of money long before
you get to the production floor.

Holden/GM admitted that a common platform for manufacturing saved
them roughly 7-10% but really cause the Camaro's weight to bulk up.

Some Falcon and Mustang parts can no doubt be shared but any thoughts of
a grouped supply contract for two plants in USA and Australia is not possible.

The 2014 Mustang design on a new platform was started 12 months ago
so I don't think Ford North America is waiting for Ford Australia to make up its mind....

[kiwimark]

Did anyone pick up on the statement j mays made around the panther platform at the end of the video. ie that under global oe ford they will still make USA specific cars. This logic would apply to Falcon (see reasoning in above post)

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by kiwimark

Did anyone pick up on the statement j mays made around the panther platform at the end of the video. ie that under global oe ford they will still make USA specific cars. This logic would apply to Falcon (see reasoning in above post)

Yep, the Mustang and F series etc. Although the F series is sold in North and South America so can technically bne a 'global' vehicle.

Panther is gorrrn.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by kiwimark

Did anyone pick up on the statement j mays made around the panther platform at the end of the video. ie that under global oe ford they will still make USA specific cars. This logic would apply to Falcon (see reasoning in above post)

The question was :

Now that the panther is going out of production will there be
any other vehicles that are traditional American by design?

To which Mays replied that Mustang F Truck and Taurus are quintessentially American vehicles.
He sidestepped the whole large Rear Wheel Drive sedan question - avoided the whole thing.
It was no coincidence because Ford is trying to convince everyone that will listen that Taurus
is the replacement for Panthers in all aspects of their existing duties.

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

You have probably got that about right. I think the IRS will get the boot coming into the next gen. The control blade has done well considering the requirements of the time (cost/weight etc.) but it has started to reach the limit of what can reasonably be expected in future forms RE HP and latest suspension design. Its already been optimised for RWD in Aus form so can't see how mustang could get away with it (given their penchant for full bore launches....). The europeans seem happy with just tinkering with it RE their FWD/AWD cars but that won't do for the GRWD.

Still, you are dead right in so far as the front end. You take the E8, put a new multilink IRS in it and that will be more than enough for Falcon to maintain its competitiveness. Its the front cowl/long bonnet that will cause bigger problems RE mustang versus lincoln/falcon. I'd say mustang will share rear (and perhaps front) suspension and drivetrain components (assuming the I6 eventually goes...) but that is about it. Lincoln on the other hand could take the E8 as is and with a stretch get two different luxury cars (short and long) easilly enough. Could see the fairlaine return too as a result (though i'm not sold on that).

I dont think they'll be so quick to give up on the CB IRS personally. It might get a pretty major overhaul but for all intens purposes the Control Blade setup is the global Ford rear end.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

I dont think they'll be so quick to give up on the CB IRS personally. It might get a pretty major overhaul but for all intens purposes the Control Blade setup is the global Ford rear end.

2014 Mustang is already under way and promises to have IRS as
well as around 300 lbs less weight. It will be first seen in 2013
so the Americans are already well into it's either E8 Falcon,
parts of it or completely new platform....

[Road_Warrior]

Aside from the notorious unreliability of the bushes and camber correction issues, I'm not aware of any chronic durability issues with the CB IRS.

They might even move to forged alloy control arms for the next gen car.

[jpd80]

Would people support a slightly smaller and lighter Falcon while having a larger
car above it replaced by Taurus or a LWB version of it?

That way we get I-4, V6 and V8 Falcon that's really fuel efficient
while keeping our Utes and Territory.

[sxckevo]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Would people support a slightly smaller and lighter Falcon while having a larger
car above it replaced by Taurus or a LWB version of it?

That way we get I-4, V6 and V8 Falcon that's really fuel efficient
while keeping our Utes and Territory.

I'm in! Are you talking mondeo size?

[Jason[98.EL]]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Would people support a slightly smaller and lighter Falcon while having a larger
car above it replaced by Taurus or a LWB version of it?

That way we get I-4, V6 and V8 Falcon that's really fuel efficient
while keeping our Utes and Territory.

like your thinking

the hard part would be getting the masses to like the idea

but i would like to see the I6 continue long into the future

Jason

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Would people support a slightly smaller and lighter Falcon while having a larger
car above it replaced by Taurus or a LWB version of it?

That way we get I-4, V6 and V8 Falcon that's really fuel efficient
while keeping our Utes and Territory.

I'd accept anything down to a true medium sized car but the smart money would be simply to adapt off whatever Lincoln want and not follow the drama GM tried with Zeta and overcomplicating things with different length overhangs and wheelbases between Commodore, Statesman, Camaro and stillborn RWD Impala. The good thing there of course is if Lincoln are serious about rivaling Lexus and ultimately the Germans, they need more than a traditional large sports sedan.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

I'd accept anything down to a true medium sized car but the smart money would be simply to adapt off whatever Lincoln want and not follow the drama GM tried with Zeta and overcomplicating things with different length overhangs and wheelbases between Commodore, Statesman, Camaro and stillborn RWD Impala. The good thing there of course is if Lincoln are serious about rivaling Lexus and ultimately the Germans, they need more than a traditional large sports sedan.

Zetas failing was that it couldn't be scaled down, the car was made too big to begin with and
Holden admitted as much. If Falcon was repositioned as a D/E platform instead of an E, it would
cover a lot more bases, especially fuel economy. Not saying I have all the answers but I'm pretty
sure that FoA will be watching what Ford NA do with 2014 Mustang and playing off that lead.

[irlewy86]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Would people support a slightly smaller and lighter Falcon while having a larger
car above it replaced by Taurus or a LWB version of it?

That way we get I-4, V6 and V8 Falcon that's really fuel efficient
while keeping our Utes and Territory.

Take it that means the I6 is in its last days

[Road_Warrior]

Well lets face it, the I6 will have to go after the current Falcon platform dies because the next gen platform will need to use corporate engines. If it isn't going to use corporate engines, there won't be a RWD Falcon. So it's a trade off.

There is a reason Ford is trying to 'future proof' the Geelong plant right now (see the Bosch deal) because it knows what the future holds....

[b0son]

Originally Posted by vztrt

No they say it'll be the last model Falcon....yet it seems to outlast any Holden model they throw at it.

Putting any bias aside, I'd think if you were a betting man, you'd still have to put money on the Commodore outlasting the Falcon if only because it moves more units. Ford Aus really need to get some exports happening. The volume of Falcons being sold is pretty dismal nowadays. You wonder how much longer Ford US keep giving us the green light...

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by b0son

Putting any bias aside, I'd think if you were a betting man, you'd still have to put money on the Commodore outlasting the Falcon if only because it moves more units. Ford Aus really need to get some exports happening. The volume of Falcons being sold is pretty dismal nowadays. You wonder how much longer Ford US keep giving us the green light...

The volume may be dismal (don't get me started on that little issue) however in the global scheme of Ford monthly sales, it actually isn't that bad (when you compare the sales of the Toreass in a market of say 350 million people its only twice the Falcon's volume in a market with only 20 million people).

The Commodore's big enemy is offshore production in China or Korea. Zeta cars are already made there in CKD form and if the exchange rate keeps going north then that's going to cause huge grief for Holden's exports. GM are still pretty edgy about their financial future and I would say won't be scared in the slightest about making some tough decisions about who gets to make what, and where.

[Jason[98.EL]]

they will keep giving the green light as long as ford au keep making money

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by b0son

Putting any bias aside, I'd think if you were a betting man, you'd still have to put money on the Commodore outlasting the Falcon if only because it moves more units. Ford Aus really need to get some exports happening. The volume of Falcons being sold is pretty dismal nowadays. You wonder how much longer Ford US keep giving us the green light...

Dont worry about exports so much, its spreading the R&D costs that will save the Falcon. At this present point in time exports will be a loss for every unit. Our high dollar is not helping Australia stay competative against the world.

[Ohio XB]

Ford is going to export the Mustang to a number of countries. This makes it a global car as it will be sold by Ford around the world. That negates the absolute requirement that it share it's platform, not to say that it won't, to be a global car.

Lincoln Navigator was based on Ford Expedition. Lincoln Mark LT is based on F-150. Lincoln Aviator was based on Explorer.

There will be no more rebadged Fords sold as Lincolns. All Lincolns will have their own body style. The last rebadged Ford was the Edge, as the Lincoln MKX.

Lincoln is coming to Austraila (tentatively).



Steve

[Polyal]

Steve, I started a thread on a RHD mustang but the overall answer from our side is that its not going to happen...any word on that are will it always be LHD?