Ford: Medium cars are the new Large - Page 2

P6LTD351 · 07-01-2012, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

what would be the point of making falcon a 5 door hatch? if thats what you want, just whack falcon badges on mondeo!

The difference is that Falcon is made here and the Mondeo is not.

tapeworm · 07-01-2012, 05:10 PM

With the new LPG and 4 cyl turbs engines you would reckon Ford are going to try & persist with the Falcon rather than dumping it soon? Why don't Ford downsize the next Falcon to AU size, wasn't an AU big enough? Every manufacturer has this need to upsize every model & we are now dealing with EF Falcon sized Corolla's etc.

jpd80 · 07-01-2012, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

what would be the point of making falcon a 5 door hatch? if thats what you want, just whack falcon badges on mondeo!

Why did Ford stop importing Mondeo sedans?
Answer that one truthfully and you're half way there.......

The other part of the equation is that Ford gets roughly $8,000 more for Falcon,
if they plug int One Ford global resources, the profitability lifts another notch
enabling Falcon to have similar accessories as Mondeo and other global vehicles.

jpd80 · 07-01-2012, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tapeworm

With the new LPG and 4 cyl turbs engines you would reckon Ford are going to try & persist with the Falcon rather than dumping it soon?

This product cycle continues for around another four years.

Quote:

Why don't Ford downsize the next Falcon to AU size, wasn't an AU big enough? Every manufacturer has this need to upsize every model & we are now dealing with EF Falcon sized Corolla's etc.

FG is still really same size as AU, just a better roof design and heavier due to safety design.
EF is longer and wider than Corolla.

Joe5619 · 07-01-2012, 07:20 PM

I too would like to see a 5 door Falcon...

Put my down for a 2017, RWD, manual, Ecoboost V6 3.5L (XR6T), 5 door, aussie built & loaded with the best tech available in 2017 please!!!

Brazen · 07-01-2012, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe5619

I too would like to see a 5 door Falcon...

Put my down for a 2017, RWD, manual, Ecoboost V6 3.5L (XR6T), 5 door, aussie built & loaded with the best tech available in 2017 please!!!

Bloody hell, yes please!

phillyc · 08-01-2012, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe5619

I too would like to see a 5 door Falcon...

Put me down for a 2017, RWD, manual, Ecoboost V6 3.5L (XR6T), 5 door, aussie built & loaded with the best tech available in 2017 please!!!

Yep, that is a winner for me too

Pull a 150mm from the length by trimming the front overhang when the Orion 6 goes whilst they are at it. Change of engine and shorter length combined with alloy rear suspension and some other weight saving measures could see a starting weight of 1575kg for EB4. Remember weight saving is a key One Ford goal. A true medium large hatch with RWD made in Australia but tapped into global resources.

**Polyal** · 08-01-2012, 09:43 AM

Coyote...the end.

prydey · 08-01-2012, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eb2monty

The difference is that Falcon is made here and the Mondeo is not.

making it look like a mondeo isn't going to boost sales, it will make it almost redundant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Why did Ford stop importing Mondeo sedans?

encroaching on falcons market? you tell me.

so why would you want the falcon to look like a mondeo?

if so many people just want a 5 door. then why not just merge the 2 models into one then. everyone keeps bleating about how much better the mondeo is anyway.

oh i forgot, its not rwd! like most people could even tell!

oh noes, i can't be fully sic and powerslide around corners...

Road_Warrior · 08-01-2012, 12:29 PM

No one was buying them apparently, and why would you when the hatch looks the same but has more functionality

Good move IMO

Bossxr8 · 08-01-2012, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tapeworm

With the new LPG and 4 cyl turbs engines you would reckon Ford are going to try & persist with the Falcon rather than dumping it soon? Why don't Ford downsize the next Falcon to AU size, wasn't an AU big enough? Every manufacturer has this need to upsize every model & we are now dealing with EF Falcon sized Corolla's etc.

FG is still a heavily modified AU underneath, the wheelbase and tracks would be near identical bar a cm here or there. Size hasn't changed much at all, even though the FG looks more substantial.

Weight is higher although basically all of that came with BA's switch to IRS across the range and upgraded crash safety. FG was only 10 or so kg heavier than BFII.

Bossxr8 · 08-01-2012, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

No one was buying them apparently, and why would you when the hatch looks the same but has more functionality

Good move IMO

Apparently sedan sales were tiny compared to hatch, and when they looked the same why have both. Unnecessary product duplication really.

You couldn't tell the difference between the hatch and sedan without being right next to the bootlid/hatch. They were unbelievably close it terms of looks. I wonder why they didn't differentiate them more than they did.

mickyyyy · 08-01-2012, 02:32 PM

Audi A4 size is perfect and they have heaps of room...

falconnut · 08-01-2012, 02:56 PM

the Small car is the New medium, Medium is the new Large, Large is the new hummer

Elks · 08-01-2012, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

what would be the point of making falcon a 5 door hatch? if thats what you want, just whack falcon badges on mondeo!

Because a Mondeo is a 5cyl front wheel drive Euro car. I would happily buy a 5 door Falcon. But it must retain front engine, rear drive, with 5.0 coyote(Miami) engine.

Another factor being overlooked for large cars, is the increasing Largeness of the average Aussie, not just our expanding waistlines but we are also getting taller. Or is that why SUV's are selling well.

jpd80 · 08-01-2012, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

encroaching on falcons market? you tell me.

so why would you want the falcon to look like a mondeo?..

Mondeo sedan was a very poor seller, hatch and S/W are much more popular...

Quote:

if so many people just want a 5 door. then why not just merge the 2 models into one then. everyone keeps bleating about how much better the mondeo is anyway.

Good plan, one body that's delineated by I-4s for mid Size and V6 engines for Full Size.
The only two questions remaining:
- RWD Falcon downsized or Mondeo modified to accept v6 and AWD?
- Local manufacturing or import from elsewhere?

Brazen · 08-01-2012, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Mondeo sedan was a very poor seller, hatch and S/W are much more popular...

Good plan, one body that's delineated by I-4s for mid Size and V6 engines for Full Size.
The only two questions remaining:
- RWD Falcon downsized or Mondeo modified to accept v6 and AWD?
- Local manufacturing or import from elsewhere?

If the new Fusion and Mondeo are the same apart from the front and rear clips. Build it here, one as Mondeo the other badged as Falcon.

jpd80 · 08-01-2012, 04:15 PM

Interesting thought, probably a sound move but I'm curious what Ford is planning between then and now,
that extra 50 million spinolies Ford US coughed up will probably be used somewhere important
to keep Falcon and territory alive, I hope it more visual changes or extra equipment...V6 Diesel?

LPG is no good for businesses if a Carbon tax gets going, they need a diesel to keep Falcon CO2 low...

Road_Warrior · 08-01-2012, 04:15 PM

Well, considering the Falcon/E8 platform is the only platform in the Ford global empire that is suitable for 4cyl, 6cyl and V8 applications AND is designed with AWD in mind, they'd be crazy to ditch that capability.

jpd80 · 08-01-2012, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Well, considering the Falcon/E8 platform is the only platform in the Ford global empire that is suitable for 4cyl, 6cyl and V8 applications AND is designed with AWD in mind, they'd be crazy to ditch that capability.

Bingo.
The game is afoot Watson......

SteveJH · 08-01-2012, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Well, considering the Falcon/E8 platform is the only platform in the Ford global empire that is suitable for 4cyl, 6cyl and V8 applications AND is designed with AWD in mind, they'd be crazy to ditch that capability.

Don't forget that along with the Mustang it must be just about the only sedan focused RWD capable platform Ford still have in production.

jpd80 · 08-01-2012, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveJH

Don't forget that along with the Mustang it must be just about the only sedan focused RWD capable platform Ford still have in production.

Falcon is Ford's only RWD sedan still in production
Mustang is Ford's only RWD Coupe still in production....

Buntz · 08-01-2012, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Falcon's frame is the difference, it offers 75mm more shoulder room but is basically designed
to extend to a Fairlane that's never going to be built. What Ford needs is a Falcon that can bridge
Mid sized and large cars more effectively, drop some more weight and make it a 5-door, not sedan.

Two vehicles on one body type,
1) I-4s in Ecoboost and I-4 diesel
2) I-6-V6 and V8 engines.

I like the idea of 4's, and 6's... maybe 8's. And really like the idea of a 5 door, but including a 4 door.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

This strategy has been misinterpreted by so many people when all Ford wanted to achieve was scales of economy
with its surviving RWD cars, there is still a lot of scope to save huge sums of money and that centres around
two things, next Falcon won't cost $700 M to develop and will use Ford's supplier network to achieve even
greater scales of economy, doubters are going to be amazed and dazed....

Or will cost about that much... but a lot less for the next Mustang

GASWAGON · 08-01-2012, 07:36 PM

Just buy and EcoLPi.....Big aussie 6 power with running costs of a 4...problem solved!

prydey · 08-01-2012, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Falcon is Ford's only RWD sedan still in production
Mustang is Ford's only RWD Coupe still in production....

surely that should ease the minds of the doubters. would ford really want to let that die?

there will either be a future for rwd or all performance models will get awd.

i'm not against fwd, but there is a limit to the amount of power you can put through the front wheels and maintain good driving manners. otherwise cars like the 335gt will just disappear and a v6 will be the new 'big' motor. perish the thought!!

FPV · 08-01-2012, 09:41 PM

It is an interesting article, the one point that struck me was that J Mays admitted there is still a market for large cars, though it may be small, it will be there. If there wasn't, obviously the Falcon wouldn't have much time left nor would the Taurus.

To me, the Ecoboost engine blurs the lines between the medium and large car classes on cylinder count only, if you look at engine capability (power/torque), there should be clear differentiation between the Falcon Ecoboost and Mondeo Ecoboost, when the Falcon's figures are released.

I think we should look at the large car class globally as opposed to mondeo vs falcon. The best example of this is the BMW 528i, Falcon sized, obviously quite a bit more expensive. It's engine previously was the 3.0l I6, however last year BMW have been rolling out turbo 4 cylinder engines, and the 528i will be fitted with this engine:

http://www.caradvice.com.au/141445/2...range-updated/

180kw, 350nm of torque. I would expect similiar figures for the Falcon ecoboost.

There is also the Mercedes Benz E250, and Audi A6 range also contain turbo 4 cylinders.

I still believe there is a market for large cars and Ford would want to be part of it with the Falcon.

max_torq · 09-01-2012, 07:35 AM

But the falcon RWD platform is very old, and it is struggling for sales. On the world stage the control blade will no longer cut it in its current state as a prestige suspension system.

Mustang will work as a medium size AWD, ford has wanted it as that for decades. There has not been a lincoln large non-SUV rwd for ages, cop cars have gone elsewhere, and is a very small niche to justify a development programme. If it comes to it a big RWD can end up on an SUV chassis, hardly a sports car.

why does it have to be ford that spends a lot to cater to this niche?

Personally, I want a decent Ford RWD V8 coupe like the next guy, but it is not too hard to see the writing is on the wall.

aussie muscle · 09-01-2012, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by max_torq

But the falcon RWD platform is very old, and it is struggling for sales. On the world stage the control blade will no longer cut it in its current state as a prestige suspension system.

Mustang will work as a medium size AWD, ford has wanted it as that for decades. There has not been a lincoln large non-SUV rwd for ages, cop cars have gone elsewhere, and is a very small niche to justify a development programme. If it comes to it a big RWD can end up on an SUV chassis, hardly a sports car.

why does it have to be ford that spends a lot to cater to this niche?

Personally, I want a decent Ford RWD V8 coupe like the next guy, but it is not too hard to see the writing is on the wall.

control blade may not be a prestige suspension, but is it more advanced than what they have in mustang at the moment?
Ford GT (GT-40) was a niche car, and not a cheap one either.

Falc'man · 09-01-2012, 10:31 AM

Unofficial reports have it that next Gen Mustang will have Control Blade, albeit revised. Same reports say it has the same-as-Falcon's front suspension. I wonder why that may be the case.

Official reports say Mustang will be lighter (and smaller) than what it is now. It currently sits at about 1650, it may well drop 100kg, and that's with the heavier-than-SRA IRS.

FPV GTHO · 09-01-2012, 11:07 AM

Control Blade IRS is world class, Falcons issues are the diff location and bushing.