How important is handling to the average car buyer?

[castellan]

Originally Posted by 4.0i OHC

For January 2012, the top 5 sellers are the Mazda 3, Toyota Corolla, Holden Commodore, Holden Cruze and Hyundai i30. The Mazda 3 drove quite well (judging by my limited experience with the old model). However, it seems that the others in the

I recently had the opportunity to drive a VE E3 Clubsport R8 wagon. I was left severely underwhelmed. The 6 speed auto was atrocious (even taking into account my dislike for automatic transmissions), and the engine left me cold. However, the aspect that disappointed me most was the handling. You could feel how nose heavy the car was in corners. It felt like understeer which progressed into oversteer as you turned any corner (compared to the much more neutral Falcon). As well as this, there's an extreme lack of on-centre feel through the steering wheel. Moving the wheel slightly from side to side resulted in NOTHING. Steering responses were very dulled (matching the throttle response). Things became better as I moved further from centre, but they in no way matched the Falcon.
Yes, the Falcon isn't quite as dynamic as it was back in the AU days (mostly due to the heavily increased weight), but it's still streets ahead of the Commodore (its steering actually has some feel). Comparing the Commo to my dad's Mondeo is like chalk and cheese! Holden's advertising must be exceptional, as I couldn't think of any reason (with the exception of styling) that anyone would buy one over a Falcon. Is the availability of a wagon really that important? Besides, Ford has the exceptional Mondeo wagon.

I also had the opportunity to drive a Corolla. The Corolla's lack of steering feel is dangerous! The car understeers like crazy at the slightest hint of a corner. This car floated all over the road, like butter on a saucepan. As with the Commodore, there was so much play in the steering; no on centre feel at all. It reminded me of a Mercedes Benz in that while the steering completely lacked communication, it wasn't even light. Why buy one over a Focus? A 6 speed transmission?
I haven't driven the Cruze and i30, but by all reports they drive similarly.

I simply can't fathom why anyone is able to live with a car that drives like that. The aforementioned cars felt so lacking! On an enthusiast's forum, I don't expect people to be buying dire drives such as the Commodore, Cruze, Camry and Corolla. However, judging by the sales charts, these things are selling like hotcakes. I wonder what people's reasons are for buying such cars. How important is dynamics to the average car buyer?

Sorry about the negative assessment of the Commodore, but unlike some *cough* Joshua Dowling *cough* I didn't recieve any GMH branded pay packet.

The 6.0L engine left you cold, come on ? how.
Go drive another VE that one could be a bad example.
Handling to most is misunderstood as it is about ride and steering feel to most.
Handling is about, it will respond to commands of a excellent driver with no stupid surprises. or maybe it is safer for an hopeless fool just steering it.
I was in a new SSV manual ute the shocks were rubbish and old mate did not know about the traction control so he did not have it switched off so power was not that impressive taking off.

[mik]

personally i think the falcon and the commy handle very well for a vast general duties,as do most modern cars, obviously everyone`s perception of handling is different, and manufacturers could if they wanted set them up like a super cars.......................which would be totally ridiculous and impractical for the every day driver who bounds over speed humps, pot holes, across driveways,loads the boot up with 20 bags of compost, etc, etc, alternatively throws the kids and gear + the boat or van on the back and heads bush.
being honest with yourself why would you wan`t any better than what our sporty sedans comes equipped with, of course if you have another daily and it`s a weekend track car well that`s different.
and the magazines telling us "car x can get a bit unstable at 200 kph while negotiating a tight bumpy sweeper", "the stability control keeps it on track but it does`nt feel as good as car z going at 200 kph through a bumpy tight sweeper" ......er yeah right, like even 10% of us will be doing that in this day and age,
as for the question does handling matter? yes it does .....up to a point, the point varies with drivers demands,
an XT or omega are 10 times better handling and safer cars now than cars from the old days, imo even the poverty paks have abilities above the abilities of most drivers to drive them at ten tenths anyway, don`t get me started on FWD vs RWD.

[Murph-51]

I'd be more concerned with how well the bastard stops than its handling, as long as it doesn't go round corners like a couch I guess

[just_pazz]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

And the difference between that and a RWD drive car whose tail slides out when going round a corner is?

My point being is that there is no way anyone can say that a FWD car is safer then a RWD in slippery conditions.

And my experience i was referring to was when i was 18.....

Yes but the thing with a RWD is simple counter steering and throttle control will 99% of the time get one out off a sticky situation in regards to losing the back end in the wet, in my experience. Happens to me all the time, shift kit and a little too much throttle while my rear tyres are very much at the end of their lifespan and the backend is prone to whip out. A simple adjustment to the steering angle and throttle off on and she's straight as a die. Granted the poor bugger in the lane next too me mighta gotta bit of a scare, but physically no harm done.

In a FWD car, obviously not applied in the situation I described above as that would very much be impossible .... but in the case of ever losing control in the wet what to do I wouldn't even know TBH .... Hope for the best?

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by Nikked

The average buyer doesn't care about RWD/FWD, Torque, peak power, steering feel or 0-100 times.

And it may come as a surprise (shock!) to most here, but a lot of people hate the fact that they need one, and if they could get away without one they would. To these people they are just another of life’s inconvenient expenses and nothing more....

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by just_pazz

Yes but the thing with a RWD is simple counter steering and throttle control will 99% of the time get one out off a sticky situation in regards to losing the back end in the wet, in my experience.

I don't know of any Territory RWD owners who've had the rear end let go in any situation - an example of good design.

Once (in my RWD Territory) I was following a (FWD) Barina around a bend in the wet and the rear end of the Barina lost traction and he started to go into a slide. I had to maneouvre suddenly to avoid him and I still didn't lose traction. In my experience a traditional RWD (before ESC and all that) will give you some sign that it's about to lose grip, a FWD holds on longer but at the extreme will suddenly lose grip at the rear without warning and violently. Years ago there was a fatal crash on a curve of the Cahill expressway in Sydney where some young bloke took his small FWD into the curve too quickly (probably overconfidence in the FWD), the rear came unstuck, the car spun around and crashed backwards and the petrol tank ruptured and exploded.

Anyway, on topic, the average buyer won't drive to that extreme, the manufacturer uses FWD to save costs, the design, weight distribution etc will probably be not the best (unless its European) and the handling will be a dog, but the buyer won't care because they'll assume that's how a modern car handles. They won't even try the alternatives to get to know any better.

[just_pazz]

Yer I suppose it's a situation most drivers would not have to deal with too often but it's the inherent properties of my Falcon right now in regards to the combination of reasonable power, high line pressure, lsd diff, tyres that are due for replacement(next week) and then add some water on the road and a little too much throttle(it's easy to do) and the back end is very prone too movement.

Even still in such a situation the excellent handling characteristics of the falcon given it's chubby nature always mean I am able to easily correct a mistake of my own making as any correction must happen literally in a split second and requires good steering feel n feedback imo and obviously the knowledge of when to apply traction and when not to the REAR wheels.

[EDManual]

It is nice to feel a bit of sideways squirm and a slide or two in rear wheel drive cars when driving hard, which you need to have traction control/ stab controls all shut down for, but when as newer good handling cars like xr6's hsv's are getting less and less give from fun to lost it on a slippery patch, I can have more fun in renaults Clio or Megane. They are awesome fun! You would NEVER beat it over the mountains with a gt or HSV. You can actaully drive crazy hard and theres still give on the limits. Also to those that say cars like this understeer? get your road lines correct! just back off from that understeer and it will not, even oversteer a bit.

But to answer the question, does anyone care? I would say less than 1% of drivers really care about handling.

[In Focus]

I would say I drive (at times) my FWD much harder than the average punter, and it's never lost traction. Then again, it doesn't have anywhere near as much grunt as an RS etc...

The truth is most people aren't going to get anywhere near the limits of their car, RWD or FWD, unless they're being extra stupid, or the conditions are particularly extreme - gravel/water/ice on a road etc.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by 4.0i OHC

For January 2012, the top 5 sellers are the Mazda 3, Toyota Corolla, Holden Commodore, Holden Cruze and Hyundai i30. The Mazda 3 drove quite well (judging by my limited experience with the old model). However, it seems that the others in the

.........................

I simply can't fathom why anyone is able to live with a car that drives like that. The aforementioned cars felt so lacking! On an enthusiast's forum, I don't expect people to be buying dire drives such as the Commodore, Cruze, Camry and Corolla. However, judging by the sales charts, these things are selling like hotcakes. I wonder what people's reasons are for buying such cars. How important is dynamics to the average car buyer?

Lets have a look at what is possible with a great handling car -
Monday to Friday; drive to work and back. If have kids, will drop off and pick up. Visit mates.
Saturday; (if not working, taking kids to something, visiting people, following up chores) go for a spirited drive, safely so as to not lose licence and empty wallet, or get car confiscated for dangerous driving.
Sunday; (as above for Saturday) recovering from Saturday, getting ready for Monday.

Really, how much of persons driving can be used to enjoy the handling of a car? 5, 10, 15%?

Most people want good handling, but mostly they want a comfortable quiet ride so that they can enjoy their time in the car in traffic on the way to work.

And lets face it, most new cars handle quite well for what we require.

I've driven all the cars you mention, and none of them would make me say "that handles *****". What I notice is how it parks and steers around the city and suburbs, vision through windows, crash and bumps on roads, tyre noise, etc.

I had a 2012 Focus Titanium and Sport for a few days, both fantastic handling cars, great cars in fact; would I buy one? No. I wanted to but they're set up wrong for us (me and wife).
The Titanium had everything we want in a car, but the ride was too firm, turning circle poor and lots of tyre noise (tyre issue, check it out in the Focus section of forum).
The Sport had a perfect ride, turning circle was good, tyre noise fine. However, we couldn't get it with the options we wanted - basically whats in the Titanium.

Both models handle extremely well, the Titanium more so only because of the wheel package - bigger, fatter, lower profile.

Basically, Ford lost a sale because they have built a "drivers" car but got confused with which model it should be - Sport or Titanium.

So to answer your question; everyone wants a good handling car, but for their every day car the priority is comfort.

[just_pazz]

Driving home from work just now and I'm behind this knobhead in a camry. We were approaching the end of the road I was travelling on which finishes with a blind crest into a t-intersection, Craigieburn/Epping Road to those northern suburban members.

Anyway pre-empting that most likely, like everyday .... traffic would come too a dead stop on the other side of the crest and considering it was bucketing down liquid horsepower I was well on the brakes before even climbing the said crest. Old mate proceeds to continue over the crest without any thought to what might be on the other side and when he gets over realizes he needs to stop rather quickly. Jams on the anchors and TBH I don't even know how he managed to stop but this camry literally pivots on it's front wheels and ends up perpendicular to the car he was following.

I watch all this unfold with a good twenty metres to spare in front of me only to look in my rear view to see the dumb ***** in her pintara just about do the same thing but instead she nearly spears of the side of the road into the drainage ditch. I can only shake my head at these people, as by definition I am the dangerous modified car driving hoon and these people are your "safe" average drivers?

[irish2]

Where I live there is a 70km/h, dual lane, and divided section of road with a large sweeping bend in it. I am continually frustrated by people taking the corner at 50km/h or less. I have seen fully loaded semis' take the corner faster than 90% of the roads users. This leads me to the conclusion that people hate G forces. They accelerate slowly, and corner slowly, just so they feel like they are sitting in an armchair.

[Majestic]

"How important is the handling to the average car buyer?" - not important at all LOL if it were, there would be lots of people driving around with modified suspensions

[castellan]

Originally Posted by just_pazz

Driving home from work just now and I'm behind this knobhead in a camry. We were approaching the end of the road I was travelling on which finishes with a blind crest into a t-intersection, Craigieburn/Epping Road to those northern suburban members.

Anyway pre-empting that most likely, like everyday .... traffic would come too a dead stop on the other side of the crest and considering it was bucketing down liquid horsepower I was well on the brakes before even climbing the said crest. Old mate proceeds to continue over the crest without any thought to what might be on the other side and when he gets over realizes he needs to stop rather quickly. Jams on the anchors and TBH I don't even know how he managed to stop but this camry literally pivots on it's front wheels and ends up perpendicular to the car he was following.

I watch all this unfold with a good twenty metres to spare in front of me only to look in my rear view to see the dumb ***** in her pintara just about do the same thing but instead she nearly spears of the side of the road into the drainage ditch. I can only shake my head at these people, as by definition I am the dangerous modified car driving hoon and these people are your "safe" average drivers?

The good old safe average drivers.
They bag someone harshly for driving at 0.05 but they them self could not even come close to some people driving at 0.10 at all. There is a lot of people that are just so pathetic sober that it can make a joke of the 0.05 thing.
A good driver that is a seasoned drinker can be a better driver at 0.05 than maybe 50% of the people on the road and that's a fact. but some people will waffle on with, ooww! how dare you. you should be ashamed with your self and that one could turnaround and say back, you can't even drive regardless as you are hopeless and a menace 24/7. and that's a fact.
Not supporting drink driving but it is a true story.

[Auslandau]

'Handling' is an excuse used when your car is underpowered! Being used of late by those with a HSV, drive their GF's hatch and anything slower than a GT 335!

[SB076]

Would like to hear from someone thats sells cars as i think you will find a lot of people dont even test drive a car these days. So if they are not taking them out for a test drive how important can handling be?

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by SB076

Would like to hear from someone thats sells cars as i think you will find a lot of people dont even test drive a car these days. So if they are not taking them out for a test drive how important can handling be?

Driving a Camry round a few urban blocks is not going to reveal much about its performance on the hard yards and out on the highway.

I once took a Barina for a test drive and asked the salesman if I could find some winding road where I could "rally" it a bit like my old Mini. He just went white and said "no"!

[Chopped]

To most people, Handling would be less important than how many cup holders a car has, or what colours it comes in.

(But then again a nice handling street car will have it's doors blown off by a dedicated track car on the track. It's all relevant.)

[kocho]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

'Handling' is an excuse used when your car is underpowered!

Same could be said for a car which is overpowered! You can only get to 130km/h on public roads so why do you need a car so powerful and quick?

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by kocho

Same could be said for a car which is overpowered! You can only get to 130km/h on public roads so why do you need a car so powerful and quick?

Another excuse brought up by those with underpowered cars .......... Yes I should have bought the Corolla instead of a Supercharged GT.

[LeadFoot81]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

My WS Fiesta is one of the best cornering cars I've driven, has a stiff suspension, electric power steering which is dead on accurate and continental tyres, you can basically throw it into a corner hard and it just goes around.

My WS Zetec has the best compromise between ride and handling of any car I've ever been in. It's simply too good a handler to just be Mum's shopping trolley, or a teenager's runabout.

However I love the fact that it's overqualified for it's job (which for me is being a comfortable, well equipped, cheap to own, daily driver)

Great handling wold be pretty low on most people's lists I imagine.

[fast gt]

I think that people these days dont really care about the handling of their car just how many kms to the tank they get. I know i didnt buy my territory for its handling capabilties (but if i want to go round corners fast ill just take the rally car for a squirt :P).99% of people dont really care about going for"spirited" drives.

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by Nikked

The average buyer doesn't care about RWD/FWD, Torque, peak power, steering feel or 0-100 times.

This times fifty billion...

People want something comfortable, good on fuel, well equipped with toys, and safe...in that order. Steering? It goes around the corners doesn't it? What more do you want.
Different people, different perceptions as well...i run my '82 Celica with nicely setup suspension that's tight as a drum and it handles like it's on rails...compared to that, the G6E is a marshmallow.
However, taken in isolation, the G6E is a tight, nicely steering thing for a luxury car. It's only when you start direct comparisons...like hopping straight out of one car and into another like car magazines do or has been mentioned in this very thread...that you really notice the differences.
I've driven new commodores and new Falcons, and reckon they're both pretty damn good for a large heavy Australian car. They're not expensive Euro-sedans, and for the price, they're bloody good deals, both of them.

[wrongwaynorris]

It isn't , or else Toyota would never sell a single car .

[FalconXR6]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

'Handling' is an excuse used when your car is underpowered! Being used of late by those with a HSV, drive their GF's hatch and anything slower than a GT 335!

Believe it or not but there are cars out there that do grunt hard AND handle well....and are not just either slow and handle well or are too powerful for their chasis to handle correctly...

[martyk54]

Originally Posted by castellan

A good driver that is a seasoned drinker can be a better driver at 0.05 than maybe 50% of the people on the road and that's a fact.

What an absolute load of garbage. Since you say this is 'fact', I'm sure you'll have no issue in proving it to us all.

As far as I know, the biggest killers on the road are those under the influence of drugs / alcohol and speed. I do indeed see a heap of drivers out there who are completely useless, devoid of any driving skill or idea of what's happening around them at any given time. But, these people still don't make up the largest portion of killers, more so the ones who'll run up your backside or side-swipe when attempting to overtake. They aren't the risk takers. The risk takers die or kill others.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by FalconXR6

Believe it or not but there are cars out there that do grunt hard AND handle well....and are not just either slow and handle well or are too powerful for their chasis to handle correctly...

........ it was tongue in cheek by the way and yes of course you can have both. Wouldn't have bought the FG GT if it wasn't the case!

[FalconXR6]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

........ it was tongue in cheek by the way and yes of course you can have both. Wouldn't have bought the FG GT if it wasn't the case!

Yes.
I am aware.
My comment was also tongue in cheek...

[castellan]

Originally Posted by martyk54

What an absolute load of garbage. Since you say this is 'fact', I'm sure you'll have no issue in proving it to us all.

As far as I know, the biggest killers on the road are those under the influence of drugs / alcohol and speed. I do indeed see a heap of drivers out there who are completely useless, devoid of any driving skill or idea of what's happening around them at any given time. But, these people still don't make up the largest portion of killers, more so the ones who'll run up your backside or side-swipe when attempting to overtake. They aren't the risk takers. The risk takers die or kill others.

0.50 is hardly drunk at all is it if you are a drinker but if you are not, one could be rolling on the ground 2 pot screamer.

The biggest cause of crashes is stupidity and most could steer a car but when it comes to avoiding a crash they are so hopeless and have no idea.
As far as i am concerned most drivers if they kill or injure people in a crash it could be just like akin to premeditated murder, because they should not even be on the bloody roads. they are just so hopless.

What i am saying hear is some people are not even a good driver regardless, they may have a licence like a builder can be licenced to and be hopeless idiot.

I seen one toss on TV of late the fool had a in car camera where we see other people run into him and the fool did noting to avoid it and who is to say he did not speed up and attribute to it. and he was hit on his right he was a moron.

[data_mine]

drug/drunk driving penalties is something I fully agree with (and think should be harsher), as you say drivers are bad enough as is, certainly don't want booze or drugs making things worse.

The problem with setting hard limits, is as already said, someone could be hopelessly plastered and be under 0.05, while some liver damaged hard drinker could be perfectly fine to drive. The law doesn't allow for personal differences. Or we'd have variable speed limits for better drivers or worse drivers.