New roads laws for NSW (Oct2012 Edition)

[Silver Ghia]

Originally Posted by karj

That is completely different kettle of fish though; they are learners. You'll find that learners who take a long time at roundabouts are very green behind the wheel and it takes a while (some longer than others) to build the knowledge and confidence be able to gauge correct gaps in traffic. Misjudging gaps in traffic is one of the main contributors to P plate accidents. So it's not that they are being taught incorrectly, just that they are inexperienced and not yet confident behind the wheel. The last thing you would want is an instructor putting pressure on a learner to go when they are not comfortable to go, or cutting it too fine on a roundabout. You don't just go to bed on the day of your 16th birthday and wake up a driver; skills need to be built up.

I accept they may not have the confidence to enter the roundabout as an experienced driver, however they must learn the correct rules, and learn to follow these rules when driving when they go for their licence. This habit continues when they get their licence, just about every P plate driver I come across at roundabouts doesn't stay in their lane when negotiating roundabouts. They also expect other drivers on roundabouts to give way to them when they enter a roundabout. It is obvious many P platers dont know the rules at roundabouts.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by mytgxl

Sometimes trying to indicate off a roundabout when turning can break your indicater if you are not careful!

Originally Posted by xrghiawagon

A mate of mine managed to snap his indicator stalk off exiting from a roundabout in his VT during the P-plate test (L's - P's)

I'm sorry but I cant see how indicating off a roundabout is any different to turning left, and you don't hear of too many people breaking indicators doing that.

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

I'm sorry but I cant see how indicating off a roundabout is any different to turning left, and you don't hear of too many people breaking indicators doing that.

In most cars if you left indicator is on and you turn the wheel to the right it makes a click noise once it passes the usual spot where it is triggered to turn off, I know if you put the left indicator on just as its at this point it honestly feels like the stalk could break off.

[Bucknaked]

Originally Posted by Fiesta_Man69

Indicating left when leaving a roundabout is utterly ridiculous.

We have had this rule in the ACT for many years. It's really not that difficult to follow. Just don't do it at the wrong exit.

You get used to it. Its no different than the stupid rules in Victoria. Turn right from the left lane. WTF

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

I accept they may not have the confidence to enter the roundabout as an experienced driver, however they must learn the correct rules, and learn to follow these rules when driving when they go for their licence. This habit continues when they get their licence, just about every P plate driver I come across at roundabouts doesn't stay in their lane when negotiating roundabouts. They also expect other drivers on roundabouts to give way to them when they enter a roundabout. It is obvious many P platers dont know the rules at roundabouts.

Hmmm... um in QLD your allowed to change lanes on the roundabout when exiting

(as an example... im on a mulitlane roundabout and have to uturn and then enter a driveway. I enter in the left lane do the uturn and have to exit via the right lane heading in the opposite direction).

I can change lanes in order to exit. Id be almost certain its the same all over the country.

A lot of drivers in mulitlane roundabouts also think its ok that if they are waiting in the outside lane of a roundabout entrance and a car is on the inside lane of a roundabout, then its ok to pull out because your in a "different" lane.... Doesnt work that way as cars may need to exit and need to cross lanes to exit.

As for indicating when you exit.. thats always been there.
Last time i looked up the wording it saud "where practical" you need to indicate when exiting. On some small suburban roundabouts you dont have enough distance/ time to travel to actually indicate your exiting (as an example your turning right and then need to indicate left as you exit).

On very large roundabouts there is NO excuse not to indicate when exiting.
A lot of drivers will think you are still turning right and will pull out in front of you, when your actually exiting.

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

Hmmm... um in QLD your allowed to change lanes on the roundabout when exiting

(as an example... im on a mulitlane roundabout and have to uturn and then enter a driveway. I enter in the left lane do the uturn and have to exit via the right lane heading in the opposite direction).

Did you get that around the wrong way? I don't see how you can enter a roundabout in the left (outside) lane to do a U-turn.
You would enter in the right(inside) lane then exit via the left lane if you wanted to turn left straight after the roundabout.

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

A lot of drivers in mulitlane roundabouts also think its ok that if they are waiting in the outside lane of a roundabout entrance and a car is on the inside lane of a roundabout, then its ok to pull out because your in a "different" lane.... Doesnt work that way as cars may need to exit and need to cross lanes to exit.

Yeah true. Someone did this to me this afternoon. I threw my hand up in the air as if to say 'WTF you doing' and the other driver got ****ed off.

[FPV+fteT3]

Just stick to using them as a chicane down two gears on entry and into it hit the apex indicate on exit....

Jokes aside they are that useless here (NSW) we have roundabouts with traffic lights on them kind of defeats the purpose really. We also had a set of lights at the entry to the John Hunter Hospital, they were replaced with a roundabout, 2 years later the roundabout was removed and the lights went back inn. "NSW the state of confusion" number plates available soon.

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by Ben73

Did you get that around the wrong way? I don't see how you can enter a roundabout in the left (outside) lane to do a U-turn.
You would enter in the right(inside) lane then exit via the left lane if you wanted to turn left straight after the roundabout.


.

Ooops !! yer.. um.. the other left.

[Silver Ghia]

If you need to change to the outer (left) lane to exit, you must give way to any vehicles in that lane. Best to anticipate, so you can merge into that lane without interupting traffic flow in either lane. But then many drivers dont know how to anticipate.

Driving in England is a real experience at roundabouts, where everyone knows what to do and how to indicate, lanes are clearly marked with arrows and destination markings in the various lanes, so they are very easy to negotiate. But cutting across from one lane to another to straightline the roundabout(what is done here all the time) is guaranteed a few loud horns aimed at you. Those English drivers may be courteous, but they dont tolerate bad driving much.

Originally Posted by FPV+fteT3

Just stick to using them as a chicane down two gears on entry and into it hit the apex indicate on exit....

[Fiesta_Man69]

Well, didn't take them long. Cop on the side of the road (on the grass due to space) pinging people for indicators near the big 4 lane roundabout near Bunnings north of Penrith..... thankfully I was going the other way...

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by xisled

If you read the second page of the flyer. They are not all new rules, just changes that clarify the rule and make it easier to understand.

i find it difficult to read any RTA literature, as it's all in semi-legalese greek.

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Just had a read, these are not new, they have only clarified existing laws, most of this stuff has been in place for years, the road train one is a new though.

The mobile phone one has been place for years, they have just closed some loop holes with the wording.

The round about thing, not sure what the issue is I was taught that stuff when I got my license in the 80's, so not sure what has changed there.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by aussie muscle

i find it difficult to read any RTA literature, as it's all in semi-legalese greek.

Also known as 'management speak' .

[graham7773]

Is there a "period of grace" where you can get away with no indicators whatever? I had to do a bit of driving around outer western Sydney today
(more than 60 Ks) and I was the only person using indicators at roundabouts at all. The policemen will be very busy if they try to enforce these rules, the numbies either can't work it out or just refuse to do it as it is just too hard for the poor dears. . Of course, the $297 and 3 points may have some effect. $397 and 4 points if in a school zone.

[falconnut]

i knew about all of these 'new' laws anways but the fines a rediculously high.

NSW can cram it i cant afford it.

[flappist]

The topic is the new road laws in NSW.

Please do not wander off into politics again.

[5.8]

Originally Posted by Fiesta_Man69

Well, didn't take them long. Cop on the side of the road (on the grass due to space) pinging people for indicators near the big 4 lane roundabout near Bunnings north of Penrith..... thankfully I was going the other way...

How do you know that was what he was doing? Did you stop and ask? Or just assumed he was "revenue raising" with the new exiting roundabout laws. Pretty impossible to enforce really due to the words "where practical" that are included in the law of indicating when exiting a roundabout. Respond with the words "it wasn't practical due to steering/timing/changing gears or whatever and you would be covered. As most Highway Police would be more aware of the wordings and their meanings than us general public, I'm sure they would be aware that this law is very hard to enforce.

[GTP534]

Originally Posted by fo,mo and co

How do you know that was what he was doing? Did you stop and ask? Or just assumed he was "revenue raising" with the new exiting roundabout laws. Pretty impossible to enforce really due to the words "where practical" that are included in the law of indicating when exiting a roundabout. Respond with the words "it wasn't practical due to steering/timing/changing gears or whatever and you would be covered. As most Highway Police would be more aware of the wordings and their meanings than us general public, I'm sure they would be aware that this law is very hard to enforce.

If the police are more aware of the "wording" it won't stop them booking people though and they'll leave it to the motorist to either wear it or take it to court.

[graham7773]

I am having trouble with "indicate left when entering a roundabout". Where else would you be going but left? Getting off is simple. There is a little single lane roundabout near where I live with an island about 2.5 meters in diameter. I have no trouble giving the necessary right turn signal on and because I have to slow down so much to negotiate it, there's plenty of time to give a left turn off. I guess it's all about how fast you're going through the roundabout as to whether you can manage a signal or not. 70 v 15kph? Some people simply do not have the time to slow down. Just by the way, a young bloke (green peas) recently destroyed his car by charging the roundabout at the wrong time. A small truck came onto the roundabout just before the young bloke got there. Of course he was going way too fast and wrote his newish car off under the side of the truck. Ah well, it's a hard way to learn. Before anyone asks how I know, I arrived at the scene seconds after the smash.

[Fiesta_Man69]

Originally Posted by graham7773

Is there a "period of grace" where you can get away with no indicators whatever? I had to do a bit of driving around outer western Sydney today
(more than 60 Ks) and I was the only person using indicators at roundabouts at all. The policemen will be very busy if they try to enforce these rules, the numbies either can't work it out or just refuse to do it as it is just too hard for the poor dears. . Of course, the $297 and 3 points may have some effect. $397 and 4 points if in a school zone.

Can confidently state 'no' there is no period of grace. Besides seeing a copper myself, just off a major roundabout (he wasn't rbt) yesterday my fears were confirmed by Ch 9 News (Sydney) last night: reporter Damian Ryan went along for a 'ride' with the highway patrol as they booked motorist after motorist for not using their indicator when exiting - and several were on very small roundabouts too.... The police were then filmed writing tickets, and were on camera as saying it 'was a very expensive lesson to learn' when motorists used the 'I didn't know' excuse. So no warnings.

[Rodp]

Dislike the indicate left when leaving a roundabout rule. It's largely ignored in Sydney - even by Police vehicles. For me, it's never practical unless it's on an absolutely huge multi-lane roundabout.

Was behind a learner driver today going through a few roundabouts in Lidcombe and he was indicating left on exit which was causing him to almost steer into the gutter every time and having to hit the anchors to avoid doing so.

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by graham7773

I am having trouble with "indicate left when entering a roundabout". Where else would you be going but left? Getting off is simple. There is a little single lane roundabout near where I live with an island about 2.5 meters in diameter. I have no trouble giving the necessary right turn signal on and because I have to slow down so much to negotiate it, there's plenty of time to give a left turn off. I guess it's all about how fast you're going through the roundabout as to whether you can manage a signal or not. 70 v 15kph? Some people simply do not have the time to slow down. Just by the way, a young bloke (green peas) recently destroyed his car by charging the roundabout at the wrong time. A small truck came onto the roundabout just before the young bloke got there. Of course he was going way too fast and wrote his newish car off under the side of the truck. Ah well, it's a hard way to learn. Before anyone asks how I know, I arrived at the scene seconds after the smash.

Yes the entering indications are just stupid, quite unnecessary. I don't think it's law in the home of the roundabout, Europe, and nobody does it, but you do indicate on leaving out of consideration for those waiting to enter. Indicating while going round past each exit is also polite because it tells people waiting at those entrances whether it's OK for them to go or not.

Love the guy hitting the truck, if ever there was divine justice this is it. Charging the roundabout is the ugliest aspect of Australians' use of roundabouts - the police could do well to concentrate on that more than indicators. Especially the number of people charging who ignorantly think they're in the right and honk horns at you etc. Major shortfall in compliance with roundabout protocol there.

I also wish the police would spend time policing keeping left unless overtaking. That should be an easy one for mobile patrols, all they have to do is tail cars for a while (preferably in an unmarked car!). These things are bigger safety issues than "speeding".

[GREGL]

Sorry just read the rest and decided to delete

[new2ford]

Since I've been driving for the past 6 months under European road laws, and Europe being the origin of the roundabout (so they should know a thing or three about it), I thought I'd look up and see whether I've been doing the wrong thing as people here only signal when leaving, or changing lanes within the roundabout (in a large roundabout with lanes) - which all seems naturally logical to me. And this is what I find (Czech road rules which are European standard):

. The driver must signal only when changing lanes left and right on the roundabout and when leaving the roundabout.
. The use of an indicator/blinker is not permitted when entering the roundabout - only when exiting.

This what I've been doing for years in Australia based on commonsense. When I see these new rules in Australia and the use of the words "turning left/right, going straight ahead" it occurs to me that road authorities in Australia have no idea of the principles of roundabouts, which is very worrying. And you can hardly then blame road users for not understanding them either if they're being miseducated this way!

I can see the NSW constabulary are going to make some rich pickings based on a falsehood here - especially from overseas visitors! Great technique for govco to change the law to something wrong and then rake in the cash from motorists who are forced to resist their instincts to do it the right way and now learn the wrong way.

Interestingly the RTA brochure also shows right indicator flashing within the roundabout when not changing lanes which is also wrong. Australian visitors to Europe should be aware that they will be fined if they follow NSW road rules when using roundabouts.

[cobramania]

I only indicate to leave a roundabout & will continue to do so, if you read the rule you'll find you only have to indicate unless not practical to do so, that will be my excuse if I get pulled over. Under the law, what stipulates practical & what isn't? I think it has to be clear & unambiguous to be charged guilty of an offence, & in my book that isn't?

Also I was going straight through a 2 lane roundabout on the inside lane a couple of days ago, & the person in the outside lane was indicating right as we past the first exit (left turn), but before we arrived at the second exit (straight through). I didn't know what the **** they were intending to do & probably they didn't know what they were supposed to be indicating. I stepped on the brakes incase they were going to turn right in front of me as I exited the roundabout & almost had someone run up the back of me. Too many indications only confuse people & make it dangerous. It should be as per the European rules, & indicate only when leaving the roundabout. You have to follow the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) rule, to accommodate the thousands of dumb drivers.

[new2ford]

^^
You do have to accept though cobramania that you need to signal when changing lanes in a large roundabout just as you would signal when changing lanes on any road. This is why the NSW law of having your right indicator on when in the right lane makes no sense (indeed confusing and dangerous as you found in your example).

By the way (as I was saying!), there is no such thing as "straight through" on a roundabout.

Keepleft maybe you can brief us on the international standardisation under UN conventions that NSW is supposed to be complying with?

[cobramania]

Originally Posted by new2ford

^^
You do have to accept though cobramania that you need to signal when changing lanes in a large roundabout just as you would signal when changing lanes on any road. This is why the NSW law of having your right indicator on when in the right lane makes no sense (indeed confusing and dangerous as you found in your example).

By the way (as I was saying!), there is no such thing as "straight through" on a roundabout.

Thing is, there's only a very small percentage of roundabouts in NSW that would be large enough to "need to" or be able to safely change lanes whilst on it or before you get out the other side. The vast majority of roundabouts in NSW are also small enough, that on a 2 lane roundabout, you can easily straight-line it through, by entering in the left lane, crossing lanes in the middle & exiting in the left lane, something I often see in light traffic, I've even done it myself at times of no traffic around. So technically in NSW roundabouts straight through is an option. Many people I also see change lanes on exit, being in the inside lane on the roundabout & finishing up in the left lane upon exit.

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by cobramania

you can easily straight-line it through, by entering in the left lane, crossing lanes in the middle & exiting in the left lane, something I often see in light traffic, I've even done it myself at times of no traffic around.

You must have seen me driving past lol But I do signal!

Straightlining is a better term than "going straight ahead", the ultimate straightlining practice being of course trams in Melbourne. That's really spooky for car drivers.

Small roundabouts are certainly more common in Australia (following UK), so there is certainly more scope for using the "where practicable" excuse!

Sure the car electronics parts industry will get a boost from replacing all the broken indicators resulting from holding the stick down one way while turning the steering wheel the other!

[noflac52]

Quote
A lot of drivers in mulitlane roundabouts also think its ok that if they are waiting in the outside lane of a roundabout entrance and a car is on the inside lane of a roundabout, then its ok to pull out because your in a "different" lane.... Doesnt work that way as cars may need to exit and need to cross lanes to exit.

The handbook is a summary only. The regulation used to state in NSW that you can enter a roundabout if it is safe to do so with the onus on the driver to avoid any collision and give way to any vehicle already on the roundabout. It didn't say that you cannot enter a round about if there is another vehicle on the round about. It may have been changed recently but at this time I haven't seen it so I assume it still exists.
The point of roundabouts is to move large volumes of traffic without too much impediment to traffic flow and when used ( and designed ) correctly this happens but sadly that doesn't happen as much as it should in OZ due to bad design, lack of knowledge and confusing rules.
The Czech rules simplify everything and would be a good start here too assuming everyone was taught them!

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by noflac52

The Czech rules simplify everything and would be a good start here too assuming everyone was taught them!

If you think the NSW guidelines are tangled, try reading the Australian Road Rules attempts to explain roundabouts! I'm starting to think that many Australian road users actually understand roundabouts better than their lawmakers and that's a real worry.

I think we can survive most of the muddleheadedness in the NSW rules but the rule about signalling when approaching the roundabout is just plain wrong.