Australasian College of Surgeons

[FORD3V]

Originally Posted by Full Noise

My apologies. Obviously that comment went over your head like a Jumbo jet.

I couldn’t care less about your first car. The point being is that these surgeons want new drivers off the road until they’re 18, and they want everyone to drive a car fitted with ESC. The last time I checked, ESC is only available on extremely late model cars. Sadly it’s people like this that have the ears of politicians, not you or me, unless there’s an election.

These surgeons that you speak about in a very disrepectful way are the people who look after and operate on people who are sick with all sorts of unpleasant diseases,what do you have against there expert opinions?
And they are the experts,not you,you have an opinion,but not an expert one.

Do you go to your doctor when you are sick? would you have one of "these surgeons" operate on you if you had a life threatening condition?

I would rather have thinking people in the ears of politicians as opposed to someone with your attitude.

I can sympathise with your opinion about young people not being able to afford new cars, but what facts do you have that suggest raising the legal driving age to 18 wouldnt be a good thing?

Cant drink,cant smoke,cant vote, but are fully able to operate and judge any situation in a motor vehicle?

[irlewy86]

I wouldn't oppose the introduction ESC to all passenger cars, but personally I think its better to learn how to drive a car without electronic aids (much better to know that if a 50c fuse blows you'll still know what to do).

[uranium_death]

Originally Posted by merlin

He earns $1.6mil a year as an anaethetist. Typo?

I don't think so...when I got 6 teeth yanked out about 3 months ago, the anethetist charged me 80 bucks for walking to my bed, telling me what he was doing, and walking out. "We'll put in a needle in your arm and you'll fall asleep."

10 seconds...80 bucks.
They do many anaesthetics a day...if they're at the top, it may be possible. Mind you though, it is probably grossly exaggerated.

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by FORD3V

These surgeons that you speak about in a very disrepectful way are the people who look after and operate on people who are sick with all sorts of unpleasant diseases,what do you have against there expert opinions?
And they are the experts,not you,you have an opinion,but not an expert one.

Do you go to your doctor when you are sick? would you have one of "these surgeons" operate on you if you had a life threatening condition?

I would rather have thinking people in the ears of politicians as opposed to someone with your attitude.

I can sympathise with your opinion about young people not being able to afford new cars, but what facts do you have that suggest raising the legal driving age to 18 wouldnt be a good thing?

Cant drink,cant smoke,cant vote, but are fully able to operate and judge any situation in a motor vehicle?

Ok Einstein. When I want a medical opinion, I’ll ask a doctor. I couldn’t give a flying **** about their opinions on car design and manufacture. My girlfriend has a few medical professionals in her family, one in particular is a world leader in skin cancer and has developed a new lased to treat affected tissue without damaging the surrounding area. He is truly brilliant, however, this same person, I wouldn’t let loose with a bloody lawn mower. In fact he would be one of the worst drivers that I’ve ever seen. Makes for a great conversation around the dinner table.

I may not be an expert, however, a couple of million kilometres driving trucks around this country so people like you can go to the supermarket and fill your trolley, gives me a slightly better insight into what’s really happening out there, opposed to some surgeon, when not in a hospital probably spends his spare time on a yacht, golf course or in the Melbourne Club.

Wouldn’t it be better if one of these surgeons proposed a lowering of the licence age to 16 and raising the legal drinking age to 21?

[|||]

how about raise the driving age to 21 & the lower drinking age to 16. that way kids can get as drunk as they like but they cant get behind the wheel to do any damage.

[uranium_death]

You cannot stop road accidents.

As I said, make new laws, provide training, make it harder...people will still be jerks and do the wrong thing.

It's called human nature. There is no cure.

[Mongoose]

Where's Flappist, i want him in on this.

[|||]

Originally Posted by uranium_death

You cannot stop road accidents.

As I said, make new laws, provide training, make it harder...people will still be jerks and do the wrong thing.

It's called human nature. There is no cure.

thats true. all we need to do is either make it harder for jerks to lose control (ESC) or make it harder for the jerks to get a licence (increase the driving age) and the total number of accidents caused by jerks will decrease.

[uranium_death]

Originally Posted by |||

thats true. all we need to do is either make it harder for jerks to lose control (ESC) or make it harder for the jerks to get a licence (increase the driving age) and the total number of accidents caused by jerks will decrease.

Jerks are not only young males aged 18-24. Jerks are everywhere, of all demographics, of both genders and drive all sorts of cars.

You can't police everybody, everywhere.

I think driving tests should be made harder. When a Camry is driving on the RH side of a residential street at 20km/h and indicating right when driving straight through, it is clear that the current system is not working.

But as I said, people will always slip through the net and stupidity and incompetence will prevail. And to bar myself from flaming, I am not exempt from this. Not because I am necessarily stupid or incompetent, but because I am human and I make mistakes and don't always do the right thing. However, I know when I have done the wrong thing...and that lessens my personal jerk rating. If I hit a car, I would never drive off.

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by |||

how about raise the driving age to 21 & the lower drinking age to 16. that way kids can get as drunk as they like but they cant get behind the wheel to do any damage.

You just don’t get it, do you? The key to increasing skill and knowledge is learning early. Let’s face it, why do we send children to school when they are six years old. Why don’t we just until they turn 12 years old before they start prep? Imagine the savings for the education department / sarcasm.

[|||]

Originally Posted by Full Noise

You just don’t get it, do you? The key to increasing skill and knowledge is learning early. Let’s face it, why do we send children to school when they are six years old. Why don’t we just until they turn 12 years old before they start prep? Imagine the savings for the education department / sarcasm.

because if a six year old is stupid & cant colour in between the lines i dont really care. if a 16 year old is stupid & cant control a car in the oncoming lane i care.

driving a car isnt hard, but it takes a mature attitude and an understanding that actions have consequences. the death toll suggests young drivers lack these.

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by |||

driving a car isnt hard, but it takes a mature attitude and an understanding that actions have consequences. the death toll suggests young drivers lack these.

Really?

How old were you when you started driving?

[|||]

Originally Posted by Full Noise

Really?

How old were you when you started driving?

16. driving my 4 speed VK. 3 litres of power.

no one is a perfect driver, but the the fact remains that young drivers suck at it. they crash more and take more risks on the road.

you could train a monkey to drive a car. the skill is in understanding what goes on around you and the consequences of your actions. if the stats show that kids under 18 will never understand it, i say increase the driving age from 16 to 18 just like they did (in nsw anyway) with smoking.

[flappist]

Yes doctors love to tell us to live our lives......

Before attacking the doctor's statements it is important that you understand "doctor mentality". Doctors have one of the most important and stressfull occupations in the world. They are at the coalface seeing people sick and dying on a day to day basis and they are constantly making decissions that can mean death or maiming of people if they get it wrong.

The all suffer from "God syndrome" because they HAVE to in order to do their job. From the minute they start traing they are told they are the smartest, most intelligent people in the world. They have to think that or the might hesitate over making decissions. Because the really do think this they see the rest of us as inferior and it is their job to save us. Again the have to think this way to do the job.
Would you like to have someone not sure what is wrong with you and just take a guess or do noting in case they get it wrong?

Everything is great in theory. The same group want cigarettes and alchohol banned completely, along with motorcycles, ultralites, cars that use petrol or diesel etc etc etc.......

This "god syndrome" is not restricted to doctors, pilots have it too along with others who have to make quick decissions that may lead to disaster if incorrect.

There is one point that is fairly valid. 17 year olds tend to do silly things. Always have, always will. This is why in times of war they are sent "up the hill" because older people won't do it.
The bigger picture is the one that many on here will hate and arc up over something severe.
High powered cars are too easy to get and use by inexperienced people.

When I was a P plater (1976) I had the fastest car (owned by people my age) for miles in all directions. It was a HK Holden 161 that did 130km/h flat out, felt scary over 110km/h and did a 400m in about 20 seconds.
No one I knew had a V8 anything and most had EHs & FBs and XP etc that were flat out at 100km/h.
There was no "instant car finance", you saved up to buy the car or you walked. Because of this everything happened more slowly and there were far less vehicles about. This means we had more time to react to situations and when we stuffed up it was usually not a major prang.

Now, 30 years later, cars do 200km/h and anyone who has a heartbeat can buy anything to pay off over 50 years.
The phase 4 GTHO was banned becase it was far to powerful and dangerous. At that time a GTHO cost about the same as a house so unless you had really rich parents you could not buy one. No bank would give you the money.
Now on AFF (as well are everywhere else) we have many teenagers and early 20s drivers who are blasting about in cars that would eat a GTHO for breaky.
This is a major reason why there are so many "spectactular" accidents.

It is interesting to note that these drivers will constantly tell you how amazing their driving skills are and how it is everyone else who is the problem.
Recently I attended a skidpan day and saw first hand the level of driving skill of many of the others there (all of whom were AFF members). I was very happy that when I went home I headed north whereas most went south.

The bottom line is that the current crop of motor vehicles perform far better than those who drive them and this will be a problem for many years as if I were to put a POLL on here asking "are you a better than average driver?" there would be 0 in the NO column.

The idea of implementing ESC is a good one but removing all cars older than 5 years is even better. Of course many people would not like this idea even though it would save countless lives. How about banning all modifiations altogether? Changing the age to 18 will have bugger all real effect too.

There is a difference between LIVING and EXISTING. We are here to LIVE and that is sometimes dangerous. When we are reduced to EXISTING in a supersafe warm and fuzzy world I wonder how we will solve the increase in suicide....

[FORD3V]

Originally Posted by Full Noise

Ok Einstein. When I want a medical opinion, I’ll ask a doctor. I couldn’t give a flying **** about their opinions on car design and manufacture. My girlfriend has a few medical professionals in her family, one in particular is a world leader in skin cancer and has developed a new lased to treat affected tissue without damaging the surrounding area. He is truly brilliant, however, this same person, I wouldn’t let loose with a bloody lawn mower. In fact he would be one of the worst drivers that I’ve ever seen. Makes for a great conversation around the dinner table.

I may not be an expert, however, a couple of million kilometres driving trucks around this country so people like you can go to the supermarket and fill your trolley, gives me a slightly better insight into what’s really happening out there, opposed to some surgeon, when not in a hospital probably spends his spare time on a yacht, golf course or in the Melbourne Club.

Wouldn’t it be better if one of these surgeons proposed a lowering of the licence age to 16 and raising the legal drinking age to 21?

One of the main points in the article is about the age someone should be able to drive,not just car design,and I no you dont think much of the opinion of a doctor, but when it comes to the human brain,they are the experts,who do you suggest we consult on medical issues?

I am a tradesman who spends countless hours a week driving around the central business district of adelaide,I see plenty of kids driving around who look like they have just turned 16 and believe me some of them should not be on the road.

I believe you are an insterstate truck driver? So I would assume you spend the majority of your driving on rural roads? Would it be fair to say that the majority of 16 year olds would be in citys and not rural roads? If that is the case and I believe it is, I probly see more young drivers on the road than you do.

If I wanted some information regarding truck driving I would consult someone like you,if I wanted advice about an engine re-build I would consult someone in that field and if I wanted information on the human brain I would consult someone in that field, a doctor.

Given that all medical professionals cruise around on yachts and play golf at there private clubs,I would assume that you being a truck driver would only own blue singlets,stubbie shorts and steel cap boots and have a beer gut and smoke like a train.

That must be the case if we are going to stereotype everyone.

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by FORD3V

I believe you are an insterstate truck driver? So I would assume you spend the majority of your driving on rural roads? Would it be fair to say that the majority of 16 year olds would be in citys and not rural roads? If that is the case and I believe it is, I probly see more young drivers on the road than you do.

True, I do spend a lot of time on rural roads, however, those rural roads usually lead to little towns like Sydney, Melbourne and God forbid… Adelaide. I have yet to purchase one of those teleporting machines that transports a B-double from the outskirts of town to the depot, or wherever the load has to be delivered. Until I buy one of these, I’ll just have to drive the truck there myself, so I do have the pleasure of driving in suburbia. Oh, I almost forgot. I live in this little town called Melbourne and I also drive a car in this little town on a dally basis.

Originally Posted by FORD3V

Given that all medical professionals cruise around on yachts and play golf at there private clubs,I would assume that you being a truck driver would only own blue singlets,stubbie shorts and steel cap boots and have a beer gut and smoke like a train.

That must be the case if we are going to stereotype everyone.

You’re extremely close with your description of me. How on God’s earth did you know?
I’m actually 136 kilograms and by beard will soon be down to my belt line. My blue singlet hasn’t been washed for a few months, so it’s this strange colour between three week old tomato sauce and dried sweat. There’s actually a picture on me in the “Post a pic of yourself” thread. You can see how close you were. :hihi:

[FORD3V]

Originally Posted by Full Noise

True, I do spend a lot of time on rural roads, however, those rural roads usually lead to little towns like Sydney, Melbourne and God forbid… Adelaide. I have yet to purchase one of those teleporting machines that transports a B-double from the outskirts of town to the depot, or wherever the load has to be delivered. Until I buy one of these, I’ll just have to drive the truck there myself, so I do have the pleasure of driving in suburbia. Oh, I almost forgot. I live in this little town called Melbourne and I also drive a car in this little town on a dally basis.



You’re extremely close with your description of me. How on God’s earth did you know?
I’m actually 136 kilograms and by beard will soon be down to my belt line. My blue singlet hasn’t been washed for a few months, so it’s this strange colour between three week old tomato sauce and dried sweat. There’s actually a picture on me in the “Post a pic of yourself” thread. You can see how close you were. :hihi:

Melbourne is a big city mate,I thought you may have realised that considering you live there.

I notice you neglected to answer my question about who we should consult about the human brain,truckdrivers?plumbers,electricians???
What do you think?

I saw the picture before I wrote that mate,
that was my point about stereotyping certain professions.

[Barry_v]

most people start working in their teens. I couldnt have held down my job nightfilling at woolworths if I didnt have a car. its another way of making young people starting out harder to employ.

I heard the number one cause of accidental death for 16-25yo was push bike riding. so quite possibly this would increase the death toll.

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by FORD3V

I notice you neglected to answer my question about who we should consult about the human brain,truckdrivers?plumbers,electricians???
What do you think?

Apologies, that was an oversight on my behalf.

I have no problem consulting doctors, surgeons etc with issues that involve the human brain. The human brain is extremely complex and there are still many things that are unknown involving its function. Over time, the more they discover, the better off we’ll all be.

I just take issue with any professional group sticking their noses into everyone else’s business. As a truck driver, I have plenty of ideas that I believe will help with road safety, also educating young people with driving, however, I can’t just call a press conference and have my ideas aired publicly. At the end of the day, Joe Public doesn’t care about what I think, as I’m just some uneducated, unwashed member of the community that the government feels the need to legislate against because of a few bad apples in the industry.

If a group of truck drivers got together and complained about the medical profession abusing loopholes in the Medicare system, would anyone take us seriously, or even listen?

[GT-E]

I have several under 21yo staff and was looking to upgrade our runaround company cars. The requirements were small hatch under $20k.
My main requirement was safety for the younger people driving these cars, so I made ESC/DSC/ESP/Driverassist or whatever catchy name they want to call it mandatory in my car choice.
This left me with only ONE car on the market in the sub$20,000 price base.

This was the Hyundai Getz with the protectz pack. It is a $1200 option and gives you side airbags and ESC.
I was disapointed to see that the Ford Fiesta and Focus did not offer this as an option, neither did the Yaris or GMHDaewoo.
I questioned the dealer about this and they had a manual car with the protectz pack and had been trying to sell it for the past 11 months. They said that nobody ordered it, so Hyundai have dropped ESC from a regular model and made it a build to order option.
I now have to wait 3 months for the car to arrive.
I guess making people aware how good this is would be the first step in getting this life saving technology standard in all cars.

They (car makers) should advertise that it is better to have ESC on a car than an airbag as I would rather avoid an crash than try to survive one.
If anyone thinks this should not be mandatory in all cars, they overestimate their driving and do not value life when driving.

[FORD3V]

Originally Posted by Full Noise

Apologies, that was an oversight on my behalf.

I have no problem consulting doctors, surgeons etc with issues that involve the human brain. The human brain is extremely complex and there are still many things that are unknown involving its function. Over time, the more they discover, the better off we’ll all be.

I just take issue with any professional group sticking their noses into everyone else’s business. As a truck driver, I have plenty of ideas that I believe will help with road safety, also educating young people with driving, however, I can’t just call a press conference and have my ideas aired publicly. At the end of the day, Joe Public doesn’t care about what I think, as I’m just some uneducated, unwashed member of the community that the government feels the need to legislate against because of a few bad apples in the industry.

If a group of truck drivers got together and complained about the medical profession abusing loopholes in the Medicare system, would anyone take us seriously, or even listen?

You have no problem with doctors and people in medical professions giving there opinions on the human brain? Yet you started this thread to vilify them for doing exactly that,there argument is that a 16 year olds brain is less capable of processing certain information than a 18 year olds brain is.
Now if you have no problem with doctors giving there opinion on the human brain why did you start this thread attacking them for doing exactly that?

I agree with your opinion about people of certain profession's giving advice about things they clearly no nothing about,but that is hardly the case here.

A group of doctors have come out and said they believe the legal driving age should be raised for such and such reasons and until we find someone who is more equiped to give such advice I believe we should listen to them.

As a society in general the everyday worker has never been listened to and that will never change because the people who run this country believe that unless you have been to university you dont have an opinion worth listening to.

Maybe you should take your anger out on politicians, not a group of doctors who from what I can gather are trying to help change this countrys shameful attitude towards driving.

[jimmy_c]

Originally Posted by Full Noise

I think that these people are genuinely so out of touch with the real world that they actually believe the garbage that they discuss amongst themselves.

Try working with the idiots its a up hill battle.

Originally Posted by ZapXR6T

I have several under 21yo staff and was looking to upgrade our runaround company cars. The requirements were small hatch under $20k.
My main requirement was safety for the younger people driving these cars, so I made ESC/DSC/ESP/Driverassist or whatever catchy name they want to call it mandatory in my car choice.
This left me with only ONE car on the market in the sub$20,000 price base.


I was disapointed to see that the Ford Fiesta and Focus did not offer this as an option, neither did the Yaris or GMHDaewoo.

As of August the Focus does offer this as an option on the base model

From Ford.com.au:
Safety Pack (CL only) - Dynamic Stability Control with Traction Control & Emergency Brake Assist, side front airbags and side curtain airbags

The base price is 19,000 so your already over the 20,000 grand mark before the option.

[FORD3V]

Originally Posted by BlackLS

As of August the Focus does offer this as an option on the base model

From Ford.com.au:
Safety Pack (CL only) - Dynamic Stability Control with Traction Control & Emergency Brake Assist, side front airbags and side curtain airbags

The base price is 19,000 so your already over the 20,000 grand mark before the option.

It definately should be standard on all new cars,that way in 10-15 years most cars on the road will have it,with a few excepsions.

The second hand car market will be full of such cars making them an affordable option for people with less money,its better to make it a standard now as opposed to still talking about it in five years time.