Holden is offering your money back if you don't like its new Epica

[Fordmuscle1965]

Originally Posted by MethodX

GM is GM, doesnt matter what division it is.

As Ford rebadges products from its other divisions.

Like What!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mazda Ute and?

[ads]

Originally Posted by Dave_au

Guys get over the Korean thing. Many of you sit there and pride yourselves on Ford's extensive list of Eurofords. Daewoo and Holden will probably outlast Ford given the apparent future plans.

Guess what boys and girls, their priced out of the market for perceived value. The people buying these Korean sourced Holden's couldnt give a stuff about where the car is made, they just want something cheap to get from A to B.

Holden wants to make it's profits by moving a large number of inexpensive cars, Ford's trying Holden's old strategy of selling a lower number of Euro cars at a higher price. Guess what, I have significant doubts on whether this strategic plan will be successful.

Seems to me that Ford likes to follow Holden a lot in the marketplace, apart from some sparks of brilliance such as the ZF auto, XR6T, BA etc. Only now are they starting to hop on the euro import bandwagon, whereas Holden has now jumped off it. I personally think, and I think the overall media message is, that Holden seems to be in a better position than Ford at the moment. I mean, Holden might be bleeding build quality good will on the korean product but at least they're making money. Ford is losing sales and doesn't have a lot of brand image out there beyond the usual faithful.

The core market: i.e. people who generally know nothing about cars, have gone off Ford due to build quality and fuel consumption issues with Falcon. The average punter doesn't notice that their falcodore can pull a hairpin at 70 k's in the wet, but they do notice when the airbag light stays on because some nit wit didn't wire the car properly.

By the time Ford thinks to export, as Holden is already doing, it might be too late. Ford America are idiots, they'll consolidate and do some crap like update the crown victoria and build it in Australia. You can already see it; Tom knows and he's buttering up Ford Australia for losses of jobs and independance. You guys have too much faith in FoMoCos corporate strategy; they've screwed things already and they'll probably continue to.

Two things Ford Australia: build quality and fuel consumption. That's all Ford engineers can do, they already have a ripper chassis and I6 engines. And maybe stoke the fires under the GT, god knows I'll need something to store in a shed up country way before we all start driving lincoln towncars.

[Paxton]

We forget one thing. Where was the Festiva from?

I won't be looking at anything Holwoo in the future, but a Mondeo might be a good replacement for my Mazda.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by ads

I mean, Holden might be bleeding build quality good will on the korean product but at least they're making money.

Nope....

Holden lost lots of money in 2005, and will announce another loss for 2006 soon. Who knows what 2007 will hold for them ?

VE is not doing the volume they budgetted for !!

[CRUSHU F150]

I dunno about Holden loosing money.... AFAIK GMH is helping keep GM afloat, as GM is loosing money hand over fist, as is Ford US. The US giants have been left behind in their own playground.

Holden tried building the Vectra here already, it was dropped to make space available on the production line for V2 Monaro. It was still overpriced for the market, as the parts costs are too great.

Ford could only dream of being in Holdens position..... Holden even beat them out of the Fairlane/LTD segment, that Ford created, and have owned up until recently!!!

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by Fordmuscle1965

Like What!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mazda Ute and?

BT50 is badged as a Ford Ranger, as is the Escape. Focus and Mazda product have more than a passing resemblence in respect of chasis and mechanicals. Mazda do a lot of engineering for Ford and quite frankly, often improve the Ford product, which Ford then takes back and puts in its cars. Mazda is not alone in this of course, as Volvo does a similar thing etc. Yes it is a two way street and a lot of Ford engineering goes to these manufacturers as well.

Anyway case in point is Mazdas experience with direct injection and turbo charging the duratec engines and the next gen of Ford sixes for the new Mazda 6. Expect that technology to move over to Euro Fords in the next generation.

Even before Ford had the shares in Mazda they have now, Mazda has always been a source of engineering for Ford and here in Australia, badge swapping has been going on for thirty odd years. Heck they even share the same spare parts distribution in Australia. Made a lot easier by the number of parts they both share in their cars.

The fact we don't hear a lot of this was more to do with the "Not made here syndrome in Ford US" that killed the logical and very profitable exchange of technologies and engineering between brands around the world. GM did the same, but has been faster to learn its mistake. I only read the other day that Subaru US is about to churn out a 100000 Toyota Camry's for the US market starting this year. Why? Because Toyota own shares in Subaru. saw a production plant that they owned that was under capicity and did something about it. Ford have to think the same way to survive.

The key difference now is that Mazda source a lot of components from around the world, which wasn't always the case. My supposedly Japanese Mazda 6 has at parts from at least three countries that I have identified already. In that sense they are already ahead of Ford Australia in making their cars more profitable.

For better or worse, Ford is just playing catchup with Holden on this one.

Dan

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by ltd

This would certainly put an end to speculation of ford sourcing parts from China or Korea.

Sorry, why would production for the US market put an end to speculation of ford sourcing parts from China or Korea? Especially considering the supply, cost and quality issues that ford has experienced using the local suppliers.

As cost cutting on the large cars come into effect, the manufacturers will start turning to cheaper overseas components.

[Franky]

I can't understand what people are getting for $25,990? If Daewoo brought this car out it would sell for a maximum of $19,990. I can't see this selling when there are so many more bang for you buck cars out there in that price range.

Holden sound like Proton when they boasted the chassis was designed by lotus. I don't care if the Mclaren F1 team made the engine, 105kw is gutless and is a very average figure for a 2 litre engine.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by Dave_au

Sorry, why would production for the US market put an end to speculation of ford sourcing parts from China or Korea? Especially considering the supply, cost and quality issues that ford has experienced using the local suppliers.

As cost cutting on the large cars come into effect, the manufacturers will start turning to cheaper overseas components.

Ford don't have a parent company in china or korea, whereas Holden do.
For the ford australia experiment to work in the USA, and for the market perception of Ford Aus to be successful, ford would not undermine any credentials it has by risking untried suppliers that can essentially be blamed for faults. Further down the road perhaps, but this will hopefully be subsidised by higher numbers.

The same thing happened to Monaro, that by putting an Australian product there as opposed to an American product, the scrutineering was extreme and several bad reviews were written about the pontiac GTO; even though we know it is a good car. Ford Aus will not risk buyer perception trying anything new with chinese or korean products, as this alone could undermine years of work if discovered by a press eager to fault the Australian car.

Furthermore, buying from countries like china or korea may be fine for components like bolts, fasteners and other small common parts, but some sophisticated assemblies such as engines, transmissions, differentials etc are better done here or canada. They are also of a better perceived quality when done under the ford umbrella. Personally, I couldn't care less but if you were to try and sell your car with the line "engine's made in china", someone may hesitate before buying your pride and joy.

You can understand why Holden on the other hand buy from korea because GM has a massive business there called Daewoo, bit more convenient than say ford buying from the Shanghai Automotive Group. Also, Holden are looking at recouping their costs with the VE project as soon as possible, so the $3000.00 Barina sold for $12990 represents a cash cow for Holden. So far, Holden has been overtaken by Toyota globally and its VE is not selling as well as hoped, what will come next?

[ltd]

Originally Posted by ads

The core market: i.e. people who generally know nothing about cars, have gone off Ford due to build quality and fuel consumption issues with Falcon. The average punter doesn't notice that their falcodore can pull a hairpin at 70 k's in the wet, but they do notice when the airbag light stays on because some nit wit didn't wire the car properly.

By the time Ford thinks to export, as Holden is already doing, it might be too late. Ford America are idiots, they'll consolidate and do some crap like update the crown victoria and build it in Australia. You can already see it; Tom knows and he's buttering up Ford Australia for losses of jobs and independance. You guys have too much faith in FoMoCos corporate strategy; they've screwed things already and they'll probably continue to.

Couple of things, Ford is leaps and bounds ahead of the competition on Fuel consumption; they spent the last two models researching and developing methods to overcome just such a thing. As for build quality, it is constantly improving so I would suggest that Ford are improving there too. You are right about the average punter, but one external influence outside fords control is that camry represents a great alternative to the ford. Is ford worried? I don't think so. Remember their car is at the end of its life cycle, they'd be more worried about their car at the beginning of its life cycle much the same as the VE has not been the sales success envisioned.

Your second point, that Ford america will screw us is ridiculous. What Ford America is trying to do is get rid of the town car line as it only sells 3000-3500 per month. This volume in the American market is untenable. In Australia, fords mainstay car is lucky to sell that many a month across all platforms, let alone one like LWB.

The crown Vic has equally sad numbers, and Ford are eager to get something with more european flair as per the tastes of people changing toward a more sophisticated look such as our cars. That's why they have focus groups going over the Australian car ie BF and Orion to see if they like it. Apparently, it has been roundly well received, especially by police.
You may also recall what I said about the town car, allow me to elaborate. The Town Car for America will be based on an Orion chassis and will undoubtedly share over 80% of Orion, but may have an American flavour to ease the transition to market. An aussie LWB may have the same panels as the falcon (like the BA), yet may prove successful in its own rite. This experiment has been tried before with the AU LWB, and most people when asked about AU say they liked the fairlane and not the SWB.
I don't think after lessons learnt that Australia is set to have an ugly LWB foistered upon us by ford, so this my friend will mean new jobs for Australia, and Ford would automatically rise up the pecking order of vehicle sales.

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by ltd

Ford don't have a parent company in china or korea, whereas Holden do.

No, Holden has a subsidiary in Korea - Daewoo, for which it has been carrying on behalf of Holden's parent, General Motors.

Furthermore, buying from countries like china or korea may be fine for components like bolts, fasteners and other small common parts, but some sophisticated assemblies such as engines, transmissions, differentials etc are better done here or canada. They are also of a better perceived quality when done under the ford umbrella. Personally, I couldn't care less but if you were to try and sell your car with the line "engine's made in china", someone may hesitate before buying your pride and joy.

Well I have been talking components outside of the drivetrain, which is exactly what Commodore has done and what Falcon will do. Ford already dumped Pilkington with the BA and sourced glass from China, added some steel and audio from Japan and manual transmissions from mexico, 6 speed autos from germany. The BA claimed to use about 85% local components, I'd expect the Orion to drop this down to about 60-65% following Holden's cost cutting lead.

[Polyal]

As for parts sourcing, get used to it, other countries dont have a sook at the drop of a hat.

I saw an add for the Epica this morning, damn it was classy, the one with the champagne glass'.

[Fordmuscle1965]

With all those glasses does that mean its as frail as one? what about the line effortless power??? 105 KW!

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Fordmuscle1965

With all those glasses does that mean its as frail as one? what about the line effortless power??? 105 KW!

Not saying I like the car, but that ad made it look pretty damn appealing.

[ads]

Originally Posted by ltd

Couple of things, Ford is leaps and bounds ahead of the competition on Fuel consumption; they spent the last two models researching and developing methods to overcome just such a thing. As for build quality, it is constantly improving so I would suggest that Ford are improving there too. You are right about the average punter, but one external influence outside fords control is that camry represents a great alternative to the ford. Is ford worried? I don't think so. Remember their car is at the end of its life cycle, they'd be more worried about their car at the beginning of its life cycle much the same as the VE has not been the sales success envisioned.

Your second point, that Ford america will screw us is ridiculous. What Ford America is trying to do is get rid of the town car line as it only sells 3000-3500 per month. This volume in the American market is untenable. In Australia, fords mainstay car is lucky to sell that many a month across all platforms, let alone one like LWB.

The crown Vic has equally sad numbers, and Ford are eager to get something with more european flair as per the tastes of people changing toward a more sophisticated look such as our cars. That's why they have focus groups going over the Australian car ie BF and Orion to see if they like it. Apparently, it has been roundly well received, especially by police.
You may also recall what I said about the town car, allow me to elaborate. The Town Car for America will be based on an Orion chassis and will undoubtedly share over 80% of Orion, but may have an American flavour to ease the transition to market. An aussie LWB may have the same panels as the falcon (like the BA), yet may prove successful in its own rite. This experiment has been tried before with the AU LWB, and most people when asked about AU say they liked the fairlane and not the SWB.
I don't think after lessons learnt that Australia is set to have an ugly LWB foistered upon us by ford, so this my friend will mean new jobs for Australia, and Ford would automatically rise up the pecking order of vehicle sales.

Well, ltd, I provided the speculation and you've provided some facts that have shot down a couple of my ideas in burning flames. A few counterpoints, however,

- Ford is not leaps and bounds ahead in consumption. They are still narrowly worst in class for most real world comparisons. Ford likes to quote nice round 10.2 L/100km ADR figures but in the majority of comparos the ford is last in fuel consumption, in sixes and especially 8's (Fords V8's are woeful fuel consumption wise). But they have improved, definately, in the order of 1 - 1.5 L/100km, which I agree is significant.

- Before you say best in class performance, I'll say it again. The average punter isn't very performance literate, their vocab is limited to "6 cylinder power". They don't know what kW or Nm or 0 to 100 lm/hr is, or they don't care. All they want is boogie, and aurion, falcon, commodore and magna all have it in spades these days.

- We won't be driving lincolns, but Ford America would be too proud to just hand over their entire large car real wheel drive architecture design to Australia wouldn't they? I'd be surprised if Ford America decided to proceed with such a brilliant idea, given their previous track record.

- Build quality may be happening in broadmeadows but it hasn't happened in public perception.

Cheers, ads.