Driving skill experiment.

[Seduce XR6]

If you run one here (8 hrs by road south of you) I would be in it even though as I have said I may not drive as I would normally but it would be a bit of fun at the very least

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

So basically their information on those studies is very dated and of little significant industry relevance.

No worries, could you then please direct me to the latest information/studies relating to the subject, i am genuinely interested to see the very latest findings...

By the way i fully support what you are trying to achieve here....

[302 XC]

Gecko,
Great idea
Coupla things come to mind
Many years ago i watch a clip of a coupla drinkers whom profeesed that alcohol didnt effect them
For the purpose of the clip
Three blokes were supplied drinks
Tests were conducted
1 test was, as a loud bang was heard (immulate a crash or hit)
They were told to hit the picks
Not 1 hit the picks straight away
So the alcohol fueled race car drivers (who they thought they were )
Failed every test
Now i know a few big drinkers could pass similar tests with flying colours
But rules are for all,so thats why we have them

Regarding "expert " drivers
For me the 1 1/2 hr drive from where i live to caboolture (Brissie northside)
Involves people overtaking on double lines,overtaking on blind corners,tailgating when theres nowhere to pass (why bother)
Just the other day
A little 4 banger overtook a b double truck double white lines with two 4x4s coming straight at
Everyone was hard on the picks

I ask why, whats the rush
Im not in a hurry to meet the maker,yet

Its kinda funny those who have constant crashes,or hit things (human error)
Still profess they are good drivers
I think a test should be conducted by who professess the loudest
Watch for all the excuses

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by DJR-351

No worries, could you then please direct me to the latest information/studies relating to the subject, i am genuinely interested to see the very latest findings...

By the way i fully support what you are trying to achieve here....

To be honest, I am not sure if any have been done more recently but I do know from my personal experience in driver training and course development that here have been many changes to course content as a result of these previous studies.

I would love to do some research and get some answers for you but as it is this topic is already too much of a distraction from what I should be studying (material for my upcoming Intensive Care Paramedic application) so at the moment I am a little time poor but enthusiasm rich if you know what I mean. I will however ask around some of my other contacts that have already done the research and will see what I come up with.

[Seduce XR6]

Reading through this & other Threads it seems maybe a poll should be done on how many crashes people have had & when or how many people have been charged with drink driving or neg driving/ driving in a manner dangerous, or how many smoke while driving, how many hold a mobile phone or text while driving etc etc

If people were honest the results would go some way to prove your point, of course most would not own up I am sure.

If you read through the what cars you have owned thread it is amazing how many cars were written off (not sure who's fault though) some people had half a dozen or so written off.

[302 XC]

Originally Posted by Seduce XR6

Reading through this & other Threads it seems maybe a poll should be done on how many crashes people have had & when or how many people have been charged with drink driving or neg driving/ driving in a manner dangerous, or how many smoke while driving, how many hold a mobile phone or text while driving etc etc

If people were honest the results would go some way to prove your point, of course most would not own up I am sure.

If you read through the what cars you have owned thread it is amazing how many cars were written off (not sure who's fault though) some people had half a dozen or so written off.

This is a very good point

I dont profess to be the best driver in the world
I was once an untouchable teen, werent we all
But hitting that power pole falling asleep behind the wheel surely woke me up
I wouldnt think there would be a handfull of honest people that have a 100%
driving record
Dont think people would honestly admit to a DUI
But a thread as a poll generally about driving history
That would be quite interesting none the less

[T3man]

Good idea - good concept. But impossible to get achievable or meaningful results in real life situations. This kind of test/measure of driving skills can only be done in a simulator.

Be a good fun day out though for anyone wanting to participate - there will ALWAYS be something you will learn from the professional instructors just by having them in the car with you for a couple of hours watching your driving behaviour.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

There are many here that have openly stated that due to the better condition of their car and the higher driving skills they possess through both experience and advanced courses, that they are safer at 10-20 km/h over the limit than others at the speed limit. I find this concept very interesting and I would love to explore it a little. I see that this statement in many cases could in fact be true but see a weakness in it. Who is it that has deemed the vehicle condition and driver skill to be of a high enough standard to allow the higher speed?

So far it seems to be a self perceived competency, or is that over confidence, I can not tell the difference? That is the question that I would love to find out an answer for. With that thought in mind, I have two friends that run their own advanced driver training company, both are police driver training instructors and both are ambulance driver training instructors, quite credible abilities I am sure everyone will agree. I am contemplating getting them to donate a bit of their time and put some people to the test.

The test will be quite simple, no advanced skid pan work as this incurs a lot of cost, just an hour of driving in a variety of road conditions in clear daytime hours. The theory is said drivers of advanced skills should be able to pass the exercise with flying colours, if they can't then perhaps their perceived abilities are not suitable for higher speeds. Of course if I was to get this off the ground, the identity of the participants will remain anonymous and expressions of interest would be via pm only. Of course the results would be discussed on a dedicated thread here but no identities will be given.

My question of you all is if I can get the interest from the instructors, who would be interested in participating? My intent is to make it no cost to you and I have no doubt that everyone would learn something from the day.

I can not guarantee this will get off the ground, it will depend on if I can get the instructors to donate their time, I think I have a pretty good chance though (the resulting thread might have to give them a bit of a plug though), do any of the Admin team see an issue in this?

I will be interested in how much interest I get. If interested, please send me a pm and once interest is there I will take it to the instructors.

I am up for it and will show you what you are doing wrong ect.

People mainly are not aware of their capabilities or of their vehicles potential.

I ride a endure bike and i have other riders complain, you are riding flat out all the time and can't believe it when we say that were just taking it easy bro.
The type of riding we do keeps your skill levels high as you are constantly pushing you self and the bikes limits so much that the bike and rider are as one.
The same thing is as with a car, if you don't know the car you don't know it's capabilities.
I bought a new VS commodore and boy what an ill handling car that was, so i had to modify it so i was confidant in driving it. because the way it handled was only for fools who had no abilities at all.

I don't agree with driving 10 or 20 km/h over the limit in town and some other places but there are spots on the highways ect and times it is definitely OK to do so.
And i will say that a lot of people are hopeless behind the wheel at anytime.

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

There are many here that have openly stated that due to the better condition of their car and the higher driving skills they possess through both experience and advanced courses, that they are safer at 10-20 km/h over the limit than others at the speed limit. I find this concept very interesting and I would love to explore it a little. I see that this statement in many cases could in fact be true but see a weakness in it. Who is it that has deemed the vehicle condition and driver skill to be of a high enough standard to allow the higher speed?

So far it seems to be a self perceived competency, or is that over confidence, I can not tell the difference? That is the question that I would love to find out an answer for. With that thought in mind, I have two friends that run their own advanced driver training company, both are police driver training instructors and both are ambulance driver training instructors, quite credible abilities I am sure everyone will agree. I am contemplating getting them to donate a bit of their time and put some people to the test.

The test will be quite simple, no advanced skid pan work as this incurs a lot of cost, just an hour of driving in a variety of road conditions in clear daytime hours. The theory is said drivers of advanced skills should be able to pass the exercise with flying colours, if they can't then perhaps their perceived abilities are not suitable for higher speeds. Of course if I was to get this off the ground, the identity of the participants will remain anonymous and expressions of interest would be via pm only. Of course the results would be discussed on a dedicated thread here but no identities will be given.

My question of you all is if I can get the interest from the instructors, who would be interested in participating? My intent is to make it no cost to you and I have no doubt that everyone would learn something from the day.

I can not guarantee this will get off the ground, it will depend on if I can get the instructors to donate their time, I think I have a pretty good chance though (the resulting thread might have to give them a bit of a plug though), do any of the Admin team see an issue in this?

I will be interested in how much interest I get. If interested, please send me a pm and once interest is there I will take it to the instructors.

I can confidently say that I am probably the most highly trained persons here, with the exception of a few.

I have worked in the driver training industry since 1987, most of which is training post licence, not pre-licence, most of which was advanced/defenisve driver training.

I have been trained and have trained others in high speed driving, including emergency service workers.

I drive defensively all the time, and would consider that I am more aware of my sorroundings than most, but I do make mistakes, usually due to a diversion of attention.

I own a race car and drive it regualarly.

My cars are in great condition.

Yet I am more than comfortable sitting on the speed limit 100% of the time - what is wrong with me?

I can tell you that with my epxperience, which is probably similar to your mates, that most people get their ambitions and abilities confused most of the time.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Big Trev

I can confidently say that I am probably the most highly trained persons here, with the exception of a few.

I have worked in the driver training industry since 1987, most of which is training post licence, not pre-licence, most of which was advanced/defenisve driver training.

I have been trained and have trained others in high speed driving, including emergency service workers.

I drive defensively all the time, and would consider that I am more aware of my sorroundings than most, but I do make mistakes, usually due to a diversion of attention.

I own a race car and drive it regualarly.

My cars are in great condition.

Yet I am more than comfortable sitting on the speed limit 100% of the time - what is wrong with me?

I can tell you that with my epxperience, which is probably similar to your mates, that most people get their ambitions and abilities confused most of the time.

You live and drive in Victoria where 400km is an extremely long journey not just the distance between fuel stops.

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by flappist

You live and drive in Victoria where 400km is an extremely long journey not just the distance between fuel stops.

and what is that supposed to mean? If you are concerned I could also tell you that I had a stint driving B-Doubles for a living, but that probably wouldn't be relelvant to your thinking would it? Are you on the "tall poppy syndrome" thinking are you?

I wish the original poster well, and I know that the offer of assessment from these blokes is going to be interesting, after all this is exactly what I have done for a job pretty much since 1987.

I look forward to seeing the results, but I think I know what the results are going to be. It has always amazed me the quality of drivers that are let loose on our roads, including heavy vehicle drivers.

[FgNewbie]

Big Trev, how would you address a student's claim "offence is the best defence" relative to urban driving style

[craigrobinson]

Originally Posted by GTP owner

Interesting concept. One limitation i see is that everyone rates their driving abilities as above average. Of course the natural bell-curve of driver ability distribution negates this self-perceived rating.
The second problem relates to insight and adjusting ones' self perception based on experience. One of my favourite graphs (i cant find it at the moment) is the one where actual IQ is graphed against perceived IQ. Those with average all the way up to the high end of IQ scored fairly closely between actual and perceived ratings. But...and this is where it gets funny...as you go down the graph for actual IQ, they started to show an increase in their perceived IQ. So we get a situation where those with below average IQ rate/perceive their own intelligence as being above average, and thos with some of the lowest actual scores rated themselves as highly intelligent.
So apply this same logic to your interesting experiment and I think you may agree that it would have to rate as a major confounder. Those with lower IQ and higher self-rating are very likely to stuff up the results.

PS I do not expect those on the lower end of the actual scale to understand what I just said.

Um.... Err....... Umm........ does that come with fries???????? lol

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by FgNewbie

Big Trev, how would you address a student's claim "offence is the best defence" relative to urban driving style

Well firstly I would think I am talking to one of my kids

The people who make these claims are generally the ones with the most to hide from my experience.

But I an not clear by the use of the word "offence", more info please.

[craigrobinson]

Big Trev,

can you please let me know the rated G force Perpendicular to the nodulisation of the road at a speed of 100km/h?

also, was pretty keen to know the terminal velocity of a sudden stop if two cars collide both doing 95km/h with a wind factor of +/- 65 degrees?

Um and i would also like to know the scale of inclination with a +/- curveture of 3 deg?????

nah, just kidding with ya, its great there are people out there like you who have the skill and knowledge to drive safely. I beleive that the testing would be a great idea, as one who holds many training qualifications for high speed pursuit driving, I think that there are many people out there that beleive they are Jack Brabham in their 1974 Datsun 120 y. hahahahah.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Big Trev

and what is that supposed to mean? If you are concerned I could also tell you that I had a stint driving B-Doubles for a living, but that probably wouldn't be relelvant to your thinking would it? Are you on the "tall poppy syndrome" thinking are you?

I wish the original poster well, and I know that the offer of assessment from these blokes is going to be interesting, after all this is exactly what I have done for a job pretty much since 1987.

I look forward to seeing the results, but I think I know what the results are going to be. It has always amazed me the quality of drivers that are let loose on our roads, including heavy vehicle drivers.

No not at all Trev.

On short trips or roads with high density traffic 100km/h is more than enough on most if not all occasions.

On the other hand doing 130 instead of 100 way out west where there are very few vehicles and long visibility e.g. Longreach to Mt Isa or Mt Isa to TC etc. an 8 hour journey becomes a 6 hour journey and is much less fatiguing.

As opposed to truck driving, all of my driving is to get somewhere to do something not just get there and unload. My work starts when I arrive.

All of Australia is not the same and road rules for cities and short rural runs are not necessarily suitable for regional areas.

[SB076]

I think its a great idea, according to the state of Victoria I am a great driver (have had a clean license for over 10 years, no crashes or traffic infringements) However in reality I know I could use some more training (my driving is only average I have done advanced driving courses, but that was many years ago)

I think Govco have it wrong, they need to increase driving training, the current system isnt right if I teach my daughter to drive I will no doubt pass my flaws on to her.

The government has this fixation that if you stick 5 k's below the speed limit you are a great driver. But how many of us are taught to look for and identify risks (might be kids playing with a ball on a footpath etc) and alter our driving to suit?

[FgNewbie]

Big Trev, I'll follow up another day when I remember the rest of the story.

SB076, thanks for the reminder.

A friend's elderly father recently announced he had been driving for 60-something years and never had a prang. His grandson quipped "You're too old to remember and duck all the prangs you cause"

[SB076]

Originally Posted by FgNewbie

A friend's elderly father recently announced he had been driving for 60-something years and never had a prang. His grandson quipped "You're too old to remember and duck all the prangs you cause"

Very good point aswell, just because you havent been in an accident doesnt mean you havent caused one. I witnesses a driver pull out from a servo, forcing another car out of the lane they were travelling in and into another car. The driver of the car that pulled out was either completely oblivious to what occured or simply didnt care. Have also seen a driver move from lane 1 to lane 2 on a dual carriage way where there is a bit of a dog leg forcing the car from lane 2 off the road.

[302 XC]

I think knowing your vehicle certainly helps
Just ask the idiot who,thought tailgating a 2 tonne truck was funny
Especially when i could stop just as quick as him, buy using my exhaust brakes
Yep to learn how to use exhaust brakes on a wee truck is fun
As the saying goes
A good car can make a bad driver look good
A good driver can make a bad car look good

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by craigrobinson

Big Trev,

can you please let me know the rated G force Perpendicular to the nodulisation of the road at a speed of 100km/h?

also, was pretty keen to know the terminal velocity of a sudden stop if two cars collide both doing 95km/h with a wind factor of +/- 65 degrees?

Um and i would also like to know the scale of inclination with a +/- curveture of 3 deg?????

nah, just kidding with ya, its great there are people out there like you who have the skill and knowledge to drive safely. I beleive that the testing would be a great idea, as one who holds many training qualifications for high speed pursuit driving, I think that there are many people out there that beleive they are Jack Brabham in their 1974 Datsun 120 y. hahahahah.

I can talk to you about slip angles if you are interested, which is probably more relevant to the topic at hand.

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by sudszy

Only problem with where you may be going, is that you have no idea about how things will work when all traffic at once is trying to go 80km/h in a 60km/h zone, Ive got a fair idea......carnage and mayhem.

Well I won't tell you what I saw the other day then. You would have a heart attack.

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by flappist

On the other hand doing 130 instead of 100 way out west where there are very few vehicles and long visibility e.g. Longreach to Mt Isa or Mt Isa to TC etc. an 8 hour journey becomes a 6 hour journey and is much less fatiguing.

I could and have argued that the higher speed you do the more concentration is required, which is more fatiguing.

If you are driving at high speed then you have to or should concentrate more, the more you concentrate to more fatigued you get because of the mental requirements, concentrating on things like the possibility of animals impacting on your travel, what would be the impact if your front tyre goes flat because you rarely check them, the closing speeds between you and somebody doing 80km/h, the planning to get around other vehicles, the understanding that when you overtake that the person coming the other way may be doing to same speed as you. The understanding that on average a person pulling out from a give/stop sign will only give an ordinary glace and will probably make their decision to proceed based on the vehicles they see doing the 'normal' road speed. The less experienced driver will struggle to get the distance judgement right.

As an owner and driver of a race car, I know that 40-60 minutes of high intensity driving makes you both physically and mentally fatigued.

[Road Games]

Yeah i'm hearing ya Trev .. after i'm finished driving around at the speed limit trying to focus on my speedo and all the covert speed cameras let alone the P plate female texting behind me i need to get home and lie down for a while....

Oh hang on ...

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by XR6menace

Yeah i'm hearing ya Trev .. after i'm finished driving around at the speed limit trying to focus on my speedo and all the covert speed cameras let alone the P plate female texting behind me i need to get home and lie down for a while....

Oh hang on ...

I hear you brother

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Big Trev

I can tell you that with my epxperience, which is probably similar to your mates, that most people get their ambitions and abilities confused most of the time.

Never a truer word spoken, we often find those with the higher confidence levels need the most amount of work from an instruction point of view, it is the quiet ones that demonstrate some very good road skills.

I was hoping you would jump in Trev as I know the wealth of experience you have, thank you.

[StrokedXT]

Originally Posted by Big Trev

I could and have argued that the higher speed you do the more concentration is required, which is more fatiguing.

If you are driving at high speed then you have to or should concentrate more, the more you concentrate to more fatigued you get because of the mental requirements, concentrating on things like the possibility of animals impacting on your travel, what would be the impact if your front tyre goes flat because you rarely check them, the closing speeds between you and somebody doing 80km/h, the planning to get around other vehicles, the understanding that when you overtake that the person coming the other way may be doing to same speed as you. The understanding that on average a person pulling out from a give/stop sign will only give an ordinary glace and will probably make their decision to proceed based on the vehicles they see doing the 'normal' road speed. The less experienced driver will struggle to get the distance judgement right.

So you are advising that you should pay less attention at lower speeds?

, but I do make mistakes, usually due to a diversion of attention.

Fairly sure that is the majority of accidents, surely your qualifications and extensive experience would totally block out any distractions behind the wheel?

[FgNewbie]

<deleted>

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by StrokedXT

Fairly sure that is the majority of accidents, surely your qualifications and extensive experience would totally block out any distractions behind the wheel?

Not in this universe it won't...humans being the fallible creatures that they are, even the most skilled and attentive of drivers will have a lapse of concentration now and then...that's life. No one can honestly say they have been doing any task at all and given it 100% concentration 100% of the time with no lapses at all.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Big Trev

I could and have argued that the higher speed you do the more concentration is required, which is more fatiguing.

If you are driving at high speed then you have to or should concentrate more, the more you concentrate to more fatigued you get because of the mental requirements, concentrating on things like the possibility of animals impacting on your travel, what would be the impact if your front tyre goes flat because you rarely check them, the closing speeds between you and somebody doing 80km/h, the planning to get around other vehicles, the understanding that when you overtake that the person coming the other way may be doing to same speed as you. The understanding that on average a person pulling out from a give/stop sign will only give an ordinary glace and will probably make their decision to proceed based on the vehicles they see doing the 'normal' road speed. The less experienced driver will struggle to get the distance judgement right.

As an owner and driver of a race car, I know that 40-60 minutes of high intensity driving makes you both physically and mentally fatigued.

You are not the only one who has played on the track over the years.

130 is NOT high intensity driving on long straight roads where you can see cars disappear over the horizon.
But again you are picturing this in your local area.
There are no stop signs or blind intersections etc. way out in woop woop.
Animals are there at night but hardly during the day.

High speeds must work as almost all of the world has higher speed limits than Australia on various roads and even we have several 130 limits and used to have open until the southern agenda pushers got hold of NT.

There are quite a number of members here who drive 120-130 on a regular basis and have done so for many many years.

The biggest problem with increasing any speed limit is IF the road toll dropped or stayed the same instead of going up the a lot of "experts" would be shown to be WRONG. And if you are WRONG then you cannot be an "expert" can you........

Legal studies 1:01. NEVER ask a question to which you do not already know the answer.

But as an aside.

What are you personal experiences driving long distances on a road in a road car with passengers at speeds of 130, 140, 150, 200 and/or above?