VFacts November 2013

[stevz]

Originally Posted by fte50

Some valid points above re factors contributing to the death of our large oz cars , however beyond the the obvious "physical differences of the 2 above mentioned" one can safely argue that our large rwd sedans are infact versatile vehicles, just as they have been so for the last 60yrs.

Large sedans totally designed & engineered for our Australian conditions, accommodating 5 adults in comfort, able to be a family car, sports car, luxury car, work car etc all whilst producing great power & efficiency figures when considering all factors eg power/economy/weight/price.

People too quickly forget their family holidays, towing a caravan, family sedan packed to the brim and still accommodating a family .......... try doing that with half these new "versatile class leading cars" you speak of.

In reality the fact is they aren't half as versatile as our large cars, despite it being a trendsetting argument of late, but more to do with our ever changing lifestyles etc - as an example how many folks now choose to fly rather than drive on holidays.

Perfectly said.

People have been blinded and brainwashed by trends, fashions and 'keeping up with the Jonses' to see reality.

[stevz]

Originally Posted by DJM83

So your saying force people to buy aussie made stuff? That will work

No. I'm saying that people's distorted and ill conceived perceptions and attitudes need to be changed.

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by fte50

Some valid points above re factors contributing to the death of our large oz cars , however beyond the the obvious "physical differences of the 2 above mentioned" one can safely argue that our large rwd sedans are infact versatile vehicles, just as they have been so for the last 60yrs.

Large sedans totally designed & engineered for our Australian conditions, accommodating 5 adults in comfort, able to be a family car, sports car, luxury car, work car etc all whilst producing great power & efficiency figures when considering all factors eg power/economy/weight/price.

People too quickly forget their family holidays, towing a caravan, family sedan packed to the brim and still accommodating a family .......... try doing that with half these new "versatile class leading cars" you speak of.

In reality the fact is they aren't half as versatile as our large cars, despite it being a trendsetting argument of late, but more to do with our ever changing lifestyles etc - as an example how many folks now choose to fly rather than drive on holidays.

Understand what you're trying to say but I think times have changed.

Now I see more Hilux/Ranger/Navara, 4x4 (Toyota/Nissan/Jeep) & SUV (Territory/Jeep/X5) with tow bars than the traditional sedan. Not to mention most of these would be able to tow more and have the advantage of diesel too.

How many people now compared to 10 - 15 years ago drive to a holiday as opposed to flying? There are the odd bunch that do (see above paragraph).

The sedan is now a niche car, it's main advantage of carrying people around on a trip is now been taken over by other types of cars. When I went to Perth on a road trip from Melbourne there was no way in hell a sedan would have accommodated everything that the Territory did.

[fte50]

Originally Posted by Wretched

The sedan is now a niche car, it's main advantage of carrying people around on a trip is now been taken over by other types of cars. When I went to Perth on a road trip from Melbourne there was no way in hell a sedan would have accommodated everything that the Territory did.

I also understand your points and am not trying to create a flogging match here, just a sharing of thoughts.
What you say above is clearly true, but not forgetting the large sedan was still able and capable. Just as a Territory is enough capable but not so when compared to a bus for example.
Today we tend to oversee the obvious perspectives, and that goes with everything from our 5 story dog kennels etc.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Toyota, Honda, Mazda (although I think they've pulled out of the JV plants?) and Nissan all have plants in the US.

BMW has a plant in South Carolina and VW just opened a plant in Tennessee.

[Spammy]

Originally Posted by Wretched

Understand what you're trying to say but I think times have changed.

Now I see more Hilux/Ranger/Navara, 4x4 (Toyota/Nissan/Jeep) & SUV (Territory/Jeep/X5) with tow bars than the traditional sedan. Not to mention most of these would be able to tow more and have the advantage of diesel too.

How many people now compared to 10 - 15 years ago drive to a holiday as opposed to flying? There are the odd bunch that do (see above paragraph).

The sedan is now a niche car, it's main advantage of carrying people around on a trip is now been taken over by other types of cars. When I went to Perth on a road trip from Melbourne there was no way in hell a sedan would have accommodated everything that the Territory did.

Agrred -- early this year I drove from QLD border to NSW mid north coast -- loads of people towing caravans/boats. Honestly I saw two falcodores towing small fold up vans and thousands of Prados/Hiluxs/Navaras/Jeeps etc towing a variety of sizes of boats and vans.

To say the general public wants / needs a large rwd drive sedan to tow stuff is just plain wrong. Look around you ...that ship sailed about 10 years ago.

I pretty sure the new car sales data supports my theory.

[Spammy]

Originally Posted by stevz

Perfectly said.

People have been blinded and brainwashed by trends, fashions and 'keeping up with the Jonses' to see reality.

Do you stop women in the street who are wearing high heels and tell them they should be wearing k-mart joggers?

[fte50]

Originally Posted by vztrt

BMW has a plant in South Carolina and VW just opened a plant in Tennessee.

Don't mean a thread hijack here (apologies) but makes you wonder why VW can justify manufacturing in USA as opposed to cheap Asia. Are they not as greedy, or more concerned about quality etc ??

Although a touch off topic, many here have heard of the brand 'Campagnolo'.
Thought perhaps some will find this an interesting read into the thought process of Campagnolo's manufacturing ideals.

http://www.bicycling.com/news/featur...n-job?page=0,0

[whales]

Originally Posted by vztrt

You do realize that Jap companies and Germans are building in the US. They just do it in the south. I also saw plenty of Chev and Ford cars when I was there last year.

I agree.... I saw heaps of Fords and Chevs too
I also saw a reasonable amount of Fords in Vietnam the other week but admit nowhere near the amount of Toyotas , Kia's and Hyundai's but then in Singapore I saw 3 fords in 4 days couldn't believe how few there were.

[Spammy]

Originally Posted by fte50

Large sedans totally designed & engineered for our Australian conditions, accommodating 5 adults in comfort, able to be a family car, sports car, luxury car, work car etc all whilst producing great power & efficiency figures when considering all factors eg power/economy/weight/price.

People too quickly forget their family holidays, towing a caravan, family sedan packed to the brim and still accommodating a family .......... try doing that with half these new "versatile class leading cars" you speak of.

In reality the fact is they aren't half as versatile as our large cars, despite it being a trendsetting argument of late, but more to do with our ever changing lifestyles etc - as an example how many folks now choose to fly rather than drive on holidays.

Unfortunately your utopian vision of Australia does not really exist..who drives around with 5 adults in their car on a regualr basis?? Buyers either want a simple yet decent car for low dollars (Mazda3/i30 etc) or someone with a family needs to carry a dog/kids bikes/ikea furniture/ whatever and therefore buys a SUV of some description.

Luxury buyers have set sail to Merc/Audi/BMW... so the well to do real estate agent no longer buys a Fairlane/Statesman like he did in the 70s/80s. And the accountant at the local ball bearing factory now has a choice, so he gets a VW Golf as a company car rather than a Falcodore.

I'm yet to uncover the mythical buyer of a 6cly RWD sedan.

I was at my kids sports carnival recently -- 200 cars in the car park...prob 5 aussie sedans all up. The other 195 cars were SUVs/people movers/Mazda3 and Hilux twin cabs.

[stevz]

Originally Posted by Spammy

Do you stop women in the street who are wearing high heels and tell them they should be wearing k-mart joggers?

What a pointless comparison. Unless you hadn't noticed, we are on an automotive forum and we are discussing cars, not shoes.

[Spammy]

Originally Posted by stevz

What a pointless comparison. Unless you hadn't noticed, we are on an automotive forum and we are discussing cars, not shoes.

You mentioned fashion - not me

[Mighty Reds]

Originally Posted by fte50

Don't mean a thread hijack here (apologies) but makes you wonder why VW can justify manufacturing in USA as opposed to cheap Asia. Are they not as greedy, or more concerned about quality etc ??

Although a touch off topic, many here have heard of the brand 'Campagnolo'.
Thought perhaps some will find this an interesting read into the thought process of Campagnolo's manufacturing ideals.

http://www.bicycling.com/news/featur...n-job?page=0,0

VW does have plants in Asia.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by fte50

Don't mean a thread hijack here (apologies) but makes you wonder why VW can justify manufacturing in USA as opposed to cheap Asia. Are they not as greedy, or more concerned about quality etc ??

VW have been manufacturing in china for a very long time (before the economic reforms).

[superyob]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

I think it is more of a cultural cringe for anything Australian. People fear being stereotyped as a bogan or redneck if they dare show any inkling that they like Australian things or take pride in their country.

Excellent observation. As with anything of Australian origin, whether a product or a belief system, there are all sorts of elitist, left wing, and theory based academic sections of society who have taught us that anything Australians do is bad and that we should all hang our heads in shame if we don’t subscribe to the latest politically correct vision of the world… This unfortunately has helped lead to the demise of the Aussie Falcon/Fairlane because we can all feel smugly self-satisfied that we are actually saving the planet by driving a Prius, or feel self-important about contributing to the ecomomy of any other country because ‘I drive an import… which is not one of those dreadfully passé Australian cars…’

[fte50]

Originally Posted by Spammy

Unfortunately your utopian vision of Australia does not really exist..who drives around with 5 adults in their car on a regualr basis?? Buyers either want a simple yet decent car for low dollars (Mazda3/i30 etc) or someone with a family needs to carry a dog/kids bikes/ikea furniture/ whatever and therefore buys a SUV of some description.

Luxury buyers have set sail to Merc/Audi/BMW... so the well to do real estate agent no longer buys a Fairlane/Statesman like he did in the 70s/80s. And the accountant at the local ball bearing factory now has a choice, so he gets a VW Golf as a company car rather than a Falcodore.

I'm yet to uncover the mythical buyer of a 6cly RWD sedan.

I was at my kids sports carnival recently -- 200 cars in the car park...prob 5 aussie sedans all up. The other 195 cars were SUVs/people movers/Mazda3 and Hilux twin cabs.

Hardly a utopian vision, but who on the other hand requires a full time sized SUV for part time SUV purposes.

When thinking about all the reasons for/against, we fail to see and constantly overlook and never mention the obvious......
In the days of our rwd oz success, majority of families had 1 car therefore the cars had to be all rounders to cater for all scenarios. Todays families have a minimum of 2 and can mix it up, having specific models for specific needs, rather than a 1 for all approach, hence the growth of small/mid /SUVs.

The mythical buyer of the 6 cyl RWD sedan exists in stronger droves than you think, its just the majority of offerings have gone to FWD for economic reasons - BMWs rwd success along with Alfa Romeo's new 169 project is proof that globally 6cyl.rwd cars are desired.

[stevz]

Originally Posted by Spammy

You mentioned fashion - not me

And the term 'fashion' can be used far more broadly than just in the area of clothes and shoes.

[fte50]

Originally Posted by Mighty Reds

VW does have plants in Asia.

Originally Posted by vztrt

VW have been manufacturing in china for a very long time (before the economic reforms).

I meant re-investment of building further new plants in Asia

[stevz]

Originally Posted by superyob

Excellent observation. As with anything of Australian origin, whether a product or a belief system, there are all sorts of elitist, left wing, and theory based academic sections of society who have taught us that anything Australians do is bad and that we should all hang our heads in shame if we don’t subscribe to the latest politically correct vision of the world… This unfortunately has helped lead to the demise of the Aussie Falcon/Fairlane because we can all feel smugly self-satisfied that we are actually saving the planet by driving a Prius, or feel self-important about contributing to the ecomomy of any other country because ‘I drive an import… which is not one of those dreadfully passé Australian cars…’

This.

This is what we need to wake up to and fight against.

[GCRXR6]

Some good thoughts put up here guys. Are they correct? Some probably are. Are they wrong? Some could be. One thing for sure, Aussies have changed a lot in recent times..... Possibly to our own perril. Buy fhe way stevez, what does "This" mean at the start of your posts? Seems to suggest you are trying to rule the soapbox with your "authoritive" opinion. Just asking .... I might be too old to comprehend this way of opening a post.

[Adamz Ghia]

Out of curiosity, are there any VFacts out yet...?

[stevz]

Originally Posted by GCRXR6

Buy fhe way stevez, what does "This" mean at the start of your posts?

It means the post that I have quoted is spot on.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by Adamz Ghia

Out of curiosity, are there any VFacts out yet...?

Tomorrow.

Third working day of the month.

[turbodewd]

where are the damn sales numbers?! The posted link in the OP has only some.

[Gadgetman]

[QUOTE=stevz;4953002]It just goes to show how incredibly stupid and sad this type of attitude is, because all people are doing is cutting off their nose to spite their face.

Why is this???? People used to drink VB"s all day and now they drink imported stuff from all round the world. Some taste better, some don't guess it depends on who you are and what your tastes are, some of it is perception.

[Sorted]

Originally Posted by turbodewd

where are the damn sales numbers?! The posted link in the OP has only some.

I was just thinking the same thing

How many Falcon's were sold?
How many Terror's were sold?

Not gonna go through 90+ pages of rubbish lol

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by Sorted

I was just thinking the same thing

How many Falcon's were sold?
How many Terror's were sold?

Not gonna go through 90+ pages of rubbish lol

Remember.

Figures are available on the third working day of the month !!!!

Tomorrow.

[Spammy]

[QUOTE=Gadgetman;4953141]

Originally Posted by stevz

It just goes to show how incredibly stupid and sad this type of attitude is, because all people are doing is cutting off their nose to spite their face.

Why is this???? People used to drink VB"s all day and now they drink imported stuff from all round the world. Some taste better, some don't guess it depends on who you are and what your tastes are, some of it is perception.

Agreed - unlike many people on this forum the successful car companies have worked out they need to manufacture cars that meet modern tastes and people actually want to buy.

[Spammy]

Originally Posted by fte50

Hardly a utopian vision, but who on the other hand requires a full time sized SUV for part time SUV purposes.

When thinking about all the reasons for/against, we fail to see and constantly overlook and never mention the obvious......
In the days of our rwd oz success, majority of families had 1 car therefore the cars had to be all rounders to cater for all scenarios. Todays families have a minimum of 2 and can mix it up, having specific models for specific needs, rather than a 1 for all approach, hence the growth of small/mid /SUVs.

The mythical buyer of the 6 cyl RWD sedan exists in stronger droves than you think, its just the majority of offerings have gone to FWD for economic reasons - BMWs rwd success along with Alfa Romeo's new 169 project is proof that globally 6cyl.rwd cars are desired.

So unlike the old days, people now have multiple cars for multiple needs, I get that ... yet the general public are buying local RWD sedans in ever diminishing numbers --- so who needs/wants a local RWD sedan again? This buyer who needs a local RWD sedan is doing a very good job of hiding behind the thousands of people who buy a SUV/fwd hatch / dual cab ute every day. What would you suggest as a method to entice them out of the shadows??

Let's not forget this point: for every person that buys a falcon, 99 people buy something that is not a falcon.

As for BMW / Alfa....I think one has to differentiate between prestige low volume/high margin cars and everyday high volume/low margin cars. Unfortunatley local sedans are now low volume/ negative margin.....not a great position to be in for any manufacturer.

[fte50]

Yep obviously, the sales numbers don't lie.
There is no enticing, especially to the brand image conscious consumer who are hell bent on image/perceived perception - these people no doubt account for many sales and would buy a 40yo Escort had it been branded as a current Euro prestige without ever knowing different.

Times and attitudes have changed - we're all correct yet were all wrong. Whatever floats your boat.