Ford & Holden rivalry - Page 3

rick69 · 08-07-2005, 11:26 AM

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Originally Posted by johnydep

I think Commodores down fall started with that dinner plate sized Lion badge on the grille

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: What bloody Commodore downfall? Wake up out of that dream you're in will ya...... Get a grip on reality, the Territory's not the be all and end all of motor vehicles in this country.

Pilch · 08-07-2005, 11:36 AM

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Originally Posted by rick69

It's all rumors and speculation at the moment.... We should just wait till next year before we start passing judgements or cooking up theories.

^^^ What he said! the next 3 - 5 years will be interesting, Ford are now in a position to challenge Holden in many aspects. But for now Holden are winning the sales race and ultimately that's what counts as far as current performance in the Australian automotive market.

johnydep · 08-07-2005, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick69

: What bloody Commodore downfall? Wake up out of that dream you're in will ya...... Get a grip on reality, the Territory's not the be all and end all of motor vehicles in this country.

Every down fall begins with no one noticing or seeing the signs. It's only with hindsight (after the fact) when people say 'thats were we started to fail'.

The Falcon - Commodore battle for market leadership is like the Liberal - Labour party battle, it all about faces every ten or so years & positions are swapped.

The Falccon is due for it's turn as market leader, have a very close look at the sales figures for the last 12 months, month by month. Have a look at each companies profit & loss statements for the past three years.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news for you, but Falcon will be No. 1 in the next few years.

rick69 · 08-07-2005, 04:54 PM

Falcon sales have dropped dramatically since the territory arrived.
Now with territory sharing the production line with falcon, it is next to impossible for the falcon to regain market leadership...the capacity just isn't there.
Also take into account that if the Commodore is selling so well now, it can only improve with the release of the much anticipated VE.

I don't know what fantasy world you're living in johnydep, but I'll give you some advice....... Don't hold your breath.

Laminge · 08-07-2005, 04:59 PM

He is allowed to have his opinion, like yourself

Want to get personal and I will step in.

Simple really

XA-Coupe · 08-07-2005, 05:13 PM

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Originally Posted by rick69

So why didn't anyone start up a campaign when Ford decided to drop the V8?

Perhaps people didn't really believe it.. perhaps they did but the amount of people that buy a V8 wasn't enough to sway the bean counters. It's human nature to wait for something to go wrong be reacting to it. Either way, Holden nearly stepped on their dick too .. and would have if the campaign wasn't successful.

What I do like is the reference to "the much anticipated VE " . It wasn't so long ago the Holden guys were giving us curry about the "much anticipated BA" .. the tide has turned

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rick69 · 08-07-2005, 05:19 PM

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Originally Posted by XA Coupe

What I do like is the reference to "the much anticipated VE " . It wasn't so long ago the Holden guys were giving us curry about the "much anticipated BA" .. the tide has turned

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What exactly are you implying?

You say the BA was much anticipated, yes it was, but only because the AU was such a shocking failure.
When I say the VE is much anticipated, it is because it is going to be all new and exciting.... We only see a new platform every 9-10 years. Doesn't mean the VZ is bad in any way.

XA-Coupe · 08-07-2005, 05:24 PM

I am implying that you ( the Holden supporters) are on the defensive.
We have had a VT s1 3.8 since new. I spent the last two weeks in NZ driving VZ executives. IMO, the VZ is half the car the original VT was. Neither of them would spin in the wet, both handled abysmally, the cruise control system is a joke and the seats are not as comfortable as the VT/VX. Even allowing for them being hire cars I was VERY disappointed. I certainly like my holdens, but I would be betting anyone but the staunchest Holden die hard would be hard pushed to think the VZ is better except by virtue of the VZ being new and the VT old. The alloytech for all it's new fangled alloy construction and OHC was nice and definitely smoother, but it didn't set the world on fire.
Oh, the VE will be a lard **** like the BA for the new crash standards ... enjoy.

rick69 · 08-07-2005, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XA Coupe

I am implying that you ( the Holden supporters) are on the defensive.
We have had a VT s1 3.8 since new. I spent the last two weeks in NZ driving VZ executives. IMO, the VZ is half the car the original VT was. Neither of them would spin in the wet, both handled abysmally, the cruise control system is a joke and the seats are not as comfortable as the VT/VX.

I have driven all models from VT to VZ extensively and to be honest, I am struggling to understand how you came to that conclusion. The VZ is so much of an improvement over VT that it isn't funny...
However, it is your opinion, and I wont challenge it. Each to their own.

As for the VE being heavy, I have no problem with that, knowing that the car will be safer.

XA-Coupe · 08-07-2005, 05:38 PM

I listed what I didn't like about the VZ. It certainly didn't feel like 6 years development. The biggest fault to me was the seats. In the VT you sit low, in the VZ you sit up like the BAs ... my head was too close to the roof and the sun visor all but useless ( not that there was much need for it in NZ ! ). I have driven plenty of VTs, VXs and VYs and they all felt the same .. it's just the VZ that I don't like and they didn't change anything too much but what they did changed the comfy feel of the original.
But to sum it up.. it didn't go better, stop better, handle better, use remarkably less fuel, wasn't as comfortable and to me, the interior was all screwed up.
I hope the VE fixes what I perceive as shortcomings...

GTP 320 · 08-07-2005, 08:41 PM

When is the Commodore going to change they basically have been the same model for years ( only cosmetic outside changes and using the same old chassis),at least Ford have had quite extensive changes from the ED to the EF and then onto the AU and now the BA .
Cheers John

Bossxr8 · 08-07-2005, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick69

Falcon sales have dropped dramatically since the territory arrived.
Now with territory sharing the production line with falcon, it is next to impossible for the falcon to regain market leadership...the capacity just isn't there.
Also take into account that if the Commodore is selling so well now, it can only improve with the release of the much anticipated VE.

I don't know what fantasy world you're living in johnydep, but I'll give you some advice....... Don't hold your breath.

Sales have not dropped dramatically since Territory. Maybe a small drop but being a near 3 year old car you expect that, Falcon ute had a record sales month aswell. With a new model tipped to be only a few months away that will bring sales back up.
Holden are on the way down. Adventra flopped, as did Vectra, Crewman sales are only a few hundred per month, FPV are outselling HSV in sedans, VE has been delayed with huge cost cutting, no VE wagon until 2007, no Monaro planned, the supposedly high tec Alloytec was panned by journos for being no better than the old Ecotec, Ion went into recievership and could not produce alloy engine blocks which meant Holden had to source blocks from Mexico which has increased costs, Denny Mooney was in the paper yesterday saying Holden will be cutting back on some of the different body styles because they have too many different models, and it creates unnessesary complications when sales of some niche vehicles sell bugger all (although it was more likely cost cutting, something they wouldn't admit), the list goes on. You only need to look at the profits between Ford and Holden to see that Holden have to massively discount Commodores to get sales, something Ford doesn't do much of with Falcon and next to no discounting on Territory. The tide has already turned, you're just too one eyed to see it.

Dilan · 08-07-2005, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick69

: What bloody Commodore downfall? Wake up out of that dream you're in will ya...... Get a grip on reality, the Territory's not the be all and end all of motor vehicles in this country.

All you are doing is stirring in this thread. He was joking - notice the smile.

_

Anyway I can't wait for the Boss series to 'mature' a bit more and IIRC FPV is doing very well (better?) than HSV this year (also take into to consideration it is a newer brand).

Jamie XR6 · 08-07-2005, 11:35 PM

And still the Commodore out sells the Falcon.....

MethodX · 09-07-2005, 04:39 AM

Fiesta and Focus havent exactly set the world on fire either have they.

So holden had one so called failure with the Adventra, its not the end of the world.
one eyedness too much

Steffo · 09-07-2005, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTP 320

When is the Commodore going to change they basically have been the same model for years ( only cosmetic outside changes and using the same old chassis),at least Ford have had quite extensive changes from the ED to the EF and then onto the AU and now the BA .
Cheers John

You're not serious are you? VT-VZ is completley different from VN-VS....

Deadman · 09-07-2005, 08:53 AM

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Originally Posted by VZSS250

And what about Monaro? Gameover.

Anyone mention that the Monaro is not slated at the moment on the VE commodore? Not to mention the Adventra (as there is no wagon slated for that platform either) ... And the VZ utes will still be around 12-24 months after the VE sedan is launched until production begins properly...

Quote:

Originally Posted by M14A-Mclaren

I would have checked a box saying something along the lines of alot of Holden fans been bandwagon supporters, especially people at my age just decide to pick Holden because it has a cooler image for some reason.

Same goes for Ford to - I guess that should have been an option... I mean - people still bought the AU because it was a Ford and even though it was their biggest design error of the century - it still sold to people who wouldn't buy anything but Ford...

the image is getting closer... With ford dominating the V8 supercars a bit more these days and with the BA actually looking damn good (better than the commodore some would say - something the AU always had pinned against it) - i don't think it will be to long before Ford gets as 'cool' as Holden in the eyes of the mass public... V8 Supercars, the GT and esspecially the XR6T have gone a long way to help that...

[EDIT]: Post below this one:

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Originally Posted by johnydep

I couldn't have put it better myself.

Yeah, well said!!

johnydep · 09-07-2005, 09:14 AM

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Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Sales have not dropped dramatically since Territory. Maybe a small drop but being a near 3 year old car you expect that, Falcon ute had a record sales month aswell. With a new model tipped to be only a few months away that will bring sales back up.
Holden are on the way down. Adventra flopped, as did Vectra, Crewman sales are only a few hundred per month, FPV are outselling HSV in sedans, VE has been delayed with huge cost cutting, no VE wagon until 2007, no Monaro planned, the supposedly high tec Alloytec was panned by journos for being no better than the old Ecotec, Ion went into recievership and could not produce alloy engine blocks which meant Holden had to source blocks from Mexico which has increased costs, Denny Mooney was in the paper yesterday saying Holden will be cutting back on some of the different body styles because they have too many different models, and it creates unnessesary complications when sales of some niche vehicles sell bugger all (although it was more likely cost cutting, something they wouldn't admit), the list goes on. You only need to look at the profits between Ford and Holden to see that Holden have to massively discount Commodores to get sales, something Ford doesn't do much of with Falcon and next to no discounting on Territory. The tide has already turned, you're just too one eyed to see it.

I couldn't have put it better myself.

HOON69 · 09-07-2005, 11:09 AM

the old debate on who's better etc etc etc
i'll just say that we have the GT and we now have the BA range nothing compares to both these.
cheers

FNQracing · 09-07-2005, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTP 320

When is the Commodore going to change they basically have been the same model for years ( only cosmetic outside changes and using the same old chassis),at least Ford have had quite extensive changes from the ED to the EF and then onto the AU and now the BA .
Cheers John

Yes, the VT-VZ was basically the VS running gear - engine, transmission, suspension (although revised).

However, Ford was not much different. EA-EL was small incremental changes. Same basic suspension components and engines lightly revised over the years. AU was radicially different on the outside, but again, the same basic running gear as EL. AU did score IRS in some models, it was a great setup, but very heavy and too costly. VCT was also introduced, but only very basic.

BA was the biggest leap forward, major engine overhaul and a sweet IRS setup. It was pratically a new car, but they were stuck with AU DNA hence the quirky styling remains.

Both Ford and Holden have only made small changes in each model change. They do just enough to keep up with the competetion. Some make big leaps, relatively speaking.

You have to remember, if AU was'nt the flop that it was, the BA would not have been anywhere near as good. BA was make or break for FoMoCoOz.

Holden could get away with minimal changes as they had a car that they could not build enough of to satisfy demand. Holden basicially had the market to itself from 1997 to 2003. Ford were in a similar situation with the XE-XF. Bugger all changed with those models.

FNQracing · 09-07-2005, 12:34 PM

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Originally Posted by Steffo

You're not serious are you? VT-VZ is completley different from VN-VS....

Not entirely. V6 only very minor changes. Same Ecotec as in VS. VT was basicially mechanically identical to VS. The sheet metal was totally new, but look at the suspension (IRS and MacPherson front end) and its practically the same. Ditto transmission.

johnydep · 09-07-2005, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FFOracing

Yes, the VT-VZ was basically the VS running gear - engine, transmission, suspension (although revised).

However, Ford was not much different. EA-EL was small incremental changes. Same basic suspension components and engines lightly revised over the years. AU was radicially different on the outside, but again, the same basic running gear as EL. AU did score IRS in some models, it was a great setup, but very heavy and too costly. VCT was also introduced, but only very basic.

BA was the biggest leap forward, major engine overhaul and a sweet IRS setup. It was pratically a new car, but they were stuck with AU DNA hence the quirky styling remains.

Both Ford and Holden have only made small changes in each model change. They do just enough to keep up with the competetion. Some make big leaps, relatively speaking.

You have to remember, if AU was'nt the flop that it was, the BA would not have been anywhere near as good. BA was make or break for FoMoCoOz.

Holden could get away with minimal changes as they had a car that they could not build enough of to satisfy demand. Holden basicially had the market to itself from 1997 to 2003. Ford were in a similar situation with the XE-XF. Bugger all changed with those models.

Don't forget that the AU had a totaly revised front suspension ; Double wishbone, only the best will do.
http://autoweb.drive.com.au/cms/A_50...wsarticle.html

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AU Falcon's advanced new double wishbone fully independent front and rear suspensions, new steering, stronger yet lighter body and re-engineered steering as well as other rear suspension choices.

The new, double wishbone independent rear suspension (IRS) is a sophisticated rear wheel drive design that is an Australian engineering first.

The AU was a totaly different vehicle to the EA - EL, the BA has only improved on the AU's strenghts and changed it's failures - front & rear panel work, interior.

The Falcons suspension, and the Territory in a different way, is equivalent to some of the most prestigious vehicles in the world, designed firstly for safety, comfort & handling.

It will be interesting to see if the VE Commodore replaces the MacPherson strut front suspension for something better & more refined. If they don't, my opening argument is doubly assured.

NAK302 · 09-07-2005, 02:00 PM

don't know about "motor" magazine. i thought it was more like Geoff Paradise, who was the editor of "Street Machine" at the time, who instigated the v8's til '98 campain. wonder what them stickers are worth nowadays.

**DJM83** · 09-07-2005, 02:43 PM

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Originally Posted by FFOracing

Holden nearly went bust in the 80's. It was so close. The 90's and 00's were very kind to Holden. During this time they served a few blows to Ford, these were:

1. The Gen III V8 - Ford are still catching up, now Holden have the 6.0L. Game over. That hurt Ford dearly. Hence the half baked "performance" cars based on the 5.0L Windsor. The stroked Windsor was a different story, but low low volume seller. Ford waited eons too long to tickle the Windsor, and when it finally did, the boat had long left. The present BOSS is great, but the BA is a heavy car.

2. Monaro - whilst not a big seller, a huge image builder.

3. Supercharged V6 - no longer did ford have a quickest 6.

4. VT - yes, VT shared most mechanicals from the VS, but when Ford brings out AU, and its as ugly as sin, it was doomed against the attractive VT.

Ford had the AU. BUT, whilst we all thought Ford were asleep at the wheel, yes, the tides have turned a little. Ford hit back with the Turbo 6 and the Territory. Both comendable efforts. Ford are still struggling with image somewhat.

Add to that, people still see Falcons as Taxi's (which is bad for image) and the Commodore is seen mainly as HWP (good image).be a ripper I'm sure. BUT, they have to get the HFV6 sorted out. So far it has not been the revelation we all thought.

Looks like Ford have the SUV market wrapped up, and the Hot 6 market. Holden, as predicted, will be king of the V8's for the forseeable future. VE will

Both Ford and Holden need to get their qaulity sorted out. Whilst they've made huge improvements, they are nowhere near the Japs or certain Euro outfits.

Obviously ur a holden fair which ur entitled to but m8 come
1.GENIII is a very good and capable engine if u got a good 1 in ur car if u didnt u need shares in mobil to put oil in the thnig
2.Monaro yes is a very good car ford has nothin to market against it VUSS ute.
3.Supercharged V6 is a pile for a forced 6 the power is **** poor an AU XR is just as powerfull i feel sorry for any1 who has a Blown 6 you may aswell bought a V8
4. VT car/platform from day 1 was destined to be a best seller i agree there but there is nothing wrong with AU m8 yeah AU1 but ugly besides XR, AUII better in the looks dept then 1 with a few mechanical changes and AUIII the pinacleof the AU car XR's in every series of AU were brilliant
all ur doing here is propping up holden on a stick and runnig ford into the ground

FNQracing · 09-07-2005, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnydep

Don't forget that the AU had a totaly revised front suspension ; Double wishbone, only the best will do.

The Falcons suspension, and the Territory in a different way, is equivalent to some of the most prestigious vehicles in the world, designed firstly for safety, comfort & handling.

It will be interesting to see if the VE Commodore replaces the MacPherson strut front suspension for something better & more refined. If they don't, my opening argument is doubly assured.

I think you'll find that the front suspension in AU was merely a revised version which appeared in EA (SLALS). No doubt though it is technically a superior design to that of a MacPherson front end (application dependant ofcourse). A properly executed MacPherson front end is nothing to sneeze at, however.

I still don't agree the AU was totally different from the EA-EL. Sure, it was heavily revised, but the fundamental mechanicals were pretty much the same - revised OHC 6, BTR 4 speed auto, watts rear end (with the exception of the double wishbone IRS on up spec models).

The BA was far more than revised sheet metal over AU. The IRS employed on BA is completely different to that of AU. Also, the 4.0L six was the biggest change made in one hit to the original OHC 6 that appeared in EA. BA was *almost* enough to be a completely new car. It still suffers that quirky turret and domed roofline. BA is still, ofcourse, an evolution of EA.

As for Holden dumping the MacPherson front end. Who knows? Its not the achillies heel of Commodore. Like I said, a well executed MacPherson front end will hold its own. Its all in the implementation, rather than the design itself. Whether or not the VE sports MacPherson or not, it won't make much difference to its success or failure. Those sorts of things don't sell cars on their own.

As usual, in a mass pruduced car, it will come down to styling, price and equipment spec. Unless the styling is completely screwed, you can be assured that VE will not be in any way a sales disaster. Falcon has had the "advantage" of "superior" design in many areas over Commodore over the years, but that has not translated into a flogging in the sales race. Only need to look at AU for proof of that. The fleet buyers want cheap buying prices and reasonable resale and running costs. The rest does'nt matter to them that much. Private Ma and Pa aren't the ones buying these cars new for the most part.

FNQracing · 09-07-2005, 02:59 PM

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