Major Ford announcement

[GT-spec15]

Originally Posted by westy73

I would have loved my young boys to have been 4th Generation Falcon owners but that right has been ripped out of my finger tips because of Governments.

You believe you have a 'right' to buy a Falcon?

USA government would not have put up with this as an excuse and in fact didn't they bail out their car companies correct me if I am wrong.

Head offices were bailed out - not 'backwater operations' that count for almost nothing on the global scale.

I love cars but you must understand that Falcon is not even a blip on Ford USA's radar. If it's not profitable, it's gone.

[westy73]

Originally Posted by GT-spec15

Exactly.

A passionately written letter is not enough to save Falcon, even if 100,000 sign the petition. It doesn't 'mean' anything.

80,000 units per annum would do it, but unless you find a way to convince this many buyers I am afraid to tell you it's too little too late.

Ok but you tell me one export market that offers the same level playing field of no import tariffs ? A large export program would have saved it but where are these level playing fields to allow FoMoCo to export their world class product ?

Governments are to blame for making Australia the world import dumping ground. There are over 300 models available in Australia. If our market is soooooo tiny and can't support the Falcon why is this so ?

Governments lack of interest in Australia making anything and their lack of 'goolies' to stand up for fair trade. This goes for ALL governments who love to spout the good old globalisation agenda except it is totally lopsided and we get nothing out of it except more dumped imports. Stuff Australia then.

Hopeless.

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by ryeman

Dearborn doesn't give a stuff what we think. We are a tiny, fragmented market.

I remember an industrial dispute at FMP Ballarat (Bendix) a couple of years ago. The Australian plant represented less than 1% of FMP's global production. I can't remember if it was before or after FoA dropped sourcing brake pads locally and starting importing?

[GT-spec15]

Originally Posted by westy73

Ok but you tell me one export market that offers the same level playing field of no import tariffs ? A large export program would have saved it but where are these level playing fields to allow FoMoCo to export their world class product ?

Holden and Toyota manage to export - ask them for tips.

I do not have a personal 'interest' in supporting local car manufacturing. As a consumer, I would rather we have choice, as much choice as possible. As such I would not support any decision that increases the price of imports.

I understand your position on this but the fact is, only those with a vested interest in local manufacturing agree with you. The rest of the country loves affordable high quality imports, and the choice they offer us.

Almost no cars are locally manufactured anyway. What could Dad buy to replace his Navara? What local car can offer the specs that my WRX has?

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by GT-spec15

The problem with your statement is that such a narrow range of vehicles are manufactured here, and a Commo or Falcon is not for everyone.

I drive a WRX - show me an Australian manufactured alternative and I will be happy to buy it.

Dad drives a Navara Turbodiesel dual cab and a LandCruiser - what do we make that compares?

Sister drives a Pulsar - Cruze might be an alternative there, but was not around back in 2005.

Mum drives a 200SX - what do we make here in terms of lightweight RWD turbo sports cars?

...and I believe the man has hit the nail square on the head...only one of those cars mentioned (the Pulsar which could be replaced with an Australian built Cruze), which are all extremely popular vehicles in their classes, has a suitable equivalent made here in Australia.

Are we supposed to protect our industry so strongly that the only reasonably affordable cars are large big engined Falcons and Commodores, like the seventies when the road was just a sea of Falcons and Kingswoods? Itmay come as a shocking surprise to some people, but not everyone...even not everyone here on the board...actually wants or strongly desires a Falcon.

Ford does make some other interesting cars around the world...it's just that it's only recently that we were exposed to what we'd been missing out on, and there's better yet to come when we start getting some up-to-date tech in whatever the Yanks are going to export here.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by westy73

I think you have just shown the exact problem he is talking about.
Total resignation that is inherent with our Australian culture these days.
Are you a sheep who just follows along without standing up to be counted ?

I for one second and third the enthusiasm. Basically if you show Ford USA we don't want their imports but would rather retain and buy their Australian made product then surely they will listen. They have tried imports from the USA and have failed miserably in the past. Do you honestly think that won't happen again ? Then Ford won't get money from imports nor from a local product. Is that what you want ??

Standup all of you Ford Australia lovers and be counted. Like he said it's 3 years and 5 months till d-day. Don't give up just yet. Use your damn voices and make some noise.

I said this 3 pages ago, no one really cared, unfortunately Australia hasn't stood up to anyone for a loooong time.

Its a waste of time trying to flog the Falcon, it doesn't meet market demand.
This is why I questioned wether it was the loss of Falcon, or our manufacturing which is troubling so many.

If it is the former, your wasting your time, if it is the latter we should be giving Ford no alternative other than providing us with a new car from their stable which will sell in numbers worthy of local manufacturing.

Right now there are a bunch of politicians fighting for the next term, we need to let them know that our votes will go to the smaller parties if they don't get behind local manufacturing.

Unfortunately I doubt it would get any support...

I wonder if we could get Kochies breast feeding mums to stand up to support jobs in Australia...

[GT-spec15]

What's the point in threatening to vote for a minor party?

How can Family First policies save Ford?

[I6DOHC]

Originally Posted by GT-spec15

I tip my hat to your passion for the cause, but how do you think a petition is going to reverse the decision and boost Falcon sales back up to a sustainable level?

It's certainly far easier to stand back and pass commentary. I've been guilty of it in the past.

My position on this matter is based on trying to find a way to preserve the skills & manufacturing base in this country.

Optimum outcome would be for a decision reversal. Only 1 way for that to happen is to boost plant volume, significantly and soon.

It's certainly a long shot, granted, but in a market that sells over a million vehicles a year, I'd estimate our local plant needs to supply at least about 50,000 vehicles a year across Falcon/Territory platform to make the case harder to close. 60,000 to 70,000 would make it viable.

Problem solving 101 tells us with current projected output of 25,000 vehicles (combined) this probably represents a doubling (+ a little bit more) of effective sales. Challenging, but doable. Ok, next part of the puzzle is to determine where is the most likely place to get these sales from. I'm not sure if everyone else's eyes are painted on, but I know I've seen countless single cab ranger/hilux utes (& other make) vehicles pass me by on the roads. This is in government fleets as well. Why not a falcon ute? As many others have said, there are plenty of hyundai, kia's puttering about in goverment fleets. I've seen police based mitsubishi lancers and other 4 cylinder vehicles. Why not ecoboost or ecoLPi? Given these are purchases made by our governments (our employees), and hearing the rhetoric preached by the so called 'leaders' of both parties in the wake of the 23rd May, this should be an easy fix. Think about it, add another 10,000 or up to 20,000 base fleet purchases a year onto the current volume, where would that place Ford. Remember this is in a market of 1,000,0000+ vehicles?

Couple this with an incentive for businesses to purchase Australian made vehicles. To me the easiest win here is to legislate for businesses that they can fully expense the purchase of locally manufactured vehicle in the year of purchase rather than having to enter a depreciation schedule. Why not do this? Action needs to be taken right NOW to combat the high dollar and ugly conditions for manufacturers. This won't affect the countries bottom line, it simply shifting dollars around and stimulating the LOCAL industry immediately. I'm going to throw this concept to Abbot/Catter/Palmer and see what they think? There is probably other simple tweaks in rules for business to encourage local purchasing of vehicles right now, which I'll think more about.

To me a less optimal outcome would be to ensure the plants remain viable after the Ford withdrawl. I'm not exactly sure of the way to do it, but to me it might be acquiring/renting/leasing the rights off Ford to build the I6 engine (royalty based if required) and implement a plant to manufacture fleet specials perhaps off the falcon platform (again royalty based arrangment). Somehow set up a partnership arrangement with the remaining Ford R&D centre to utilise their expertise to assist with engineering and build processes in the plant. I'm not sure if this is a public-private consortium arrangement or if Ford would even be in it. Does anyone remember what they did in the US? The government effectively bought GM outright. That is how important the automotive industry should be to a nation. Germany, Japan, Korea each place the same significance on their industries. Anyway, back on track, perhaps a uniform taxi vehicle could be legistlated across Australia like the 'black cabs' all based off the basic ford/territory platform (call it something else and not badged as a ford). Ruggedised vehicles for our defence forces might be another output. Government fleet specials. Look to build a low cost low option vehicle for 3rd world use. Consider the amount of foreign aid we send overseas each and every year. Perhaps we utilise those billions to produce vehicles locally that we send overseas rather than donate our hard earned tax payer $ in a brown paper bags to Indonesia, Afganistan, Nigeria, or god know where else.

Anyway, I'm sure there are smarter people than me loitering around these forums but the only way to achieve an outcome is to start doing something.

[GT-spec15]

Are you offering to spearhead this nationwide campaign? Very easy to theorise in a forum post, very hard to 'do'.

Are you trying to save Falcon, or Australian manufacturing? If the latter, do you have a plan to save other sectors that are heading offshore?

The comparisons with the US govt bailing GM out are irrelevant. Imagine the global consequences of GM folding - now compare it with the (admittedly sad) loss of 1200 jobs down here in little ol' Victoria.

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by GT-spec15

How can Family First policies save Ford?

Hey, leave Family First alone. I voted for them in 2004 because they were the only party who didn't give their vote to the ALP... so I helped Steve Fielding be elected.

[GT-spec15]

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

Hey, leave Family First alone. I voted for them in 2004 because they were the only party who didn't give their vote to the ALP... so I helped Steve Fielding be elected.

So it was your fault..!!

[westy73]

Originally Posted by GT-spec15

Holden and Toyota manage to export - ask them for tips.

I do not have a personal 'interest' in supporting local car manufacturing. As a consumer, I would rather we have choice, as much choice as possible. As such I would not support any decision that increases the price of imports.

I understand your position on this but the fact is, only those with a vested interest in local manufacturing agree with you. The rest of the country loves affordable high quality imports, and the choice they offer us.

Almost no cars are locally manufactured anyway. What could Dad buy to replace his Navara? What local car can offer the specs that my WRX has?

Cripes that's tragic. So you basically have no interest in supporting Australian Made in any way ?
Just give me choice you say. So send my dollars for Holden and Toyota and everyone else overseas. We don't actually need to make anything here. We can just borrow money and not make anything any more. I know let's be Greece. Let's just be big fat slobs and let everyone sell us everything so we don't have to lift a finger ever again. God help us all !!

It's an attitude thing really and I guess Australian patriotism is dead and buried. Enjoy the fruits of your dollars going overseas and I look forward to you buying that same WRX when the Aaussie dollar is 50c.
Reap what you sow.

[4stanger]

Originally Posted by GT-spec15

The problem with your statement is that such a narrow range of vehicles are manufactured here, and a Commo or Falcon is not for everyone.

I drive a WRX - show me an Australian manufactured alternative and I will be happy to buy it.

Dad drives a Navara Turbodiesel dual cab and a LandCruiser - what do we make that compares?

Sister drives a Pulsar - Cruze might be an alternative there, but was not around back in 2005.

Mum drives a 200SX - what do we make here in terms of lightweight RWD turbo sports cars?

True to form you will have a very good response to this post but it will be based on your opinion as this one is based on my opinion.
WRX nice cars to look at to some, very powerfull and rally pedigree.
We do have set speed limits in Oz and you probably use yours for rallies and club events etc. but do you need all that for every day driving to work to the shops and anything else? There is Oz made poser vehicles available. And they are very unique compared to the rest of the world. Try and buy one in Japan Europe etc.
Dad could drive an Awd territory towing a trailer, most people I have seen who have purchased late model 4wd or new hardly take it off road, those who take there 4wd REALLY off road have 10 year old + 4wds.

Agreed Cruze is a suitable A to B aussie made car that your sister could have considered. but like you said none around in 2005.

Mum wants a powerfull 2 door sports car to full fill her driving requirements? fine take the imports, Female mid life crisis cars are not a big market in new cars.
Flame me away as you please

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

Hey, leave Family First alone. I voted for them in 2004 because they were the only party who didn't give their vote to the ALP... so I helped Steve Fielding be elected.

Originally Posted by GT-spec15

So it was your fault..!!

Probably is my fault, just checked the Family First website:
"Anything not based on economic reality is doomed to failure."
...
"Australia needs a political party which understands business and how markets work; how and why investment decisions are made; how real jobs are created; and that ‘barriers to entry’ to getting a job causes unemployment."

[westy73]

Originally Posted by GT-spec15

Are you offering to spearhead this nationwide campaign? Very easy to theorise in a forum post, very hard to 'do'.

Are you trying to save Falcon, or Australian manufacturing? If the latter, do you have a plan to save other sectors that are heading offshore?

The comparisons with the US govt bailing GM out are irrelevant. Imagine the global consequences of GM folding - now compare it with the (admittedly sad) loss of 1200 jobs down here in little ol' Victoria.

Aaaah yes. And what would you do with your old Subie if they went broke. No more WRX....oh well so sad eh ? It's only people's jobs in little old Japan anyway.

Bury your head in the sand if you cannot see the big picture here. Holden and Toyota will leave manufacturing in Australian and then you will be vulnerable to purchasing costs based on the Aussie dollar. Better hope it stays up like it is or you will be paying a lot more. No local manufacturing means no competition means you will pay what you're asked to pay.

[GT-spec15]

Originally Posted by westy73

Cripes that's tragic. So you basically have no interest in supporting Australian Made in any way ?

You're twisting my words.

I will happily buy Australian if a local equivalent is available.

However, I will not buy something locally made if it is unsuitable for my purpose, simply to support local production.

For example...a Falcon is totally unsuitable for me.

Geddit?

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by westy73

Cripes that's tragic. So you basically have no interest in supporting Australian Made in any way ?
Just give me choice you say. So send my dollars for Holden and Toyota and everyone else overseas. We don't actually need to make anything here. We can just borrow money and not make anything any more. I know let's be Greece. Let's just be big fat slobs and let everyone sell us everything so we don't have to lift a finger ever again. God help us all !!

It's an attitude thing really and I guess Australian patriotism is dead and buried. Enjoy the fruits of your dollars going overseas and I look forward to you buying that same WRX when the Aaussie dollar is 50c.
Reap what you sow.

Didn't the ALP borrow BILLIONS so Ford, Holden and Toyota could send it overseas? Money that my Great-Grandchildren will have to repay.

"The Toyota Motor Corporation, in a dead heat with US giant General Motors (GM), is now the most profitable car maker in the world. Last financial year (2007) TMC was valued at US$215 billion. This, however, didn't stop the federal government from offering Toyota even more money.
...
Despite TMC's profitability the federal government announced on June 10 (2008) that it would give A$35 million towards the production of 10,000 hybrid Camry cars at its Altona operation. Friend of big business, Victorian premier John Brumby also chucked in $34 million of taxpayer money.

Toyota is pleased with the present but, as TMC's Australian spokesman Mike Breen told the June 11 Australian, the company would have produced the hybrid cars anyway. Stating the obvious, Breen said: "It would have happened regardless and we wouldn't bring it to market unless we're going to make money".

http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/39768

[GT-spec15]

Originally Posted by Arnaldo

WRX nice cars to look at to some, very powerfull and rally pedigree.
We do have set speed limits in Oz and you probably use yours for rallies and club events etc. but do you need all that for every day driving to work to the shops and anything else?

My WRX offers great performance in the twisties for weekends, and returns fuel consumption below 10 per 100 around town during the week.

What local 'poser car' offers similar size, performance, economy and features?

Dad could drive an Awd territory towing a trailer

Why would he do that when the same can be achieved in one vehicle, without the need to lug a trailer around everywhere? That's a big compromise, not an equivalent.

Mum wants a powerfull 2 door sports car to full fill her driving requirements?

This is the beauty of choice, we can drive what we want. Again, if a local equivalent was available we would have looked at it. The 200SX is hardly a 'female midlife crisis' car but she loves it.

Simple as that really. Of course my response is based on my opinion but when I am buying a car that is all that counts. Nobody should tell me what to buy!

[westy73]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

I said this 3 pages ago, no one really cared, unfortunately Australia hasn't stood up to anyone for a loooong time.

Its a waste of time trying to flog the Falcon, it doesn't meet market demand.
This is why I questioned wether it was the loss of Falcon, or our manufacturing which is troubling so many.

If it is the former, your wasting your time, if it is the latter we should be giving Ford no alternative other than providing us with a new car from their stable which will sell in numbers worthy of local manufacturing.

Right now there are a bunch of politicians fighting for the next term, we need to let them know that our votes will go to the smaller parties if they don't get behind local manufacturing.

Unfortunately I doubt it would get any support...

I wonder if we could get Kochies breast feeding mums to stand up to support jobs in Australia...

What is a waste of time is doing nothing.
Ford produces a green car that the Government would buy in numbers for fleets if only Ford had put in the necessary documentation to be accepted. They didn't. So why is that ? You build a brilliant EcoBoost Falcon, critics raved about it. You don't advertise it. You don't push it to be used in Government fleets as you cannot be bothered filling in the paperwork to be accepted under Euro regs. You then advertise the Mondeo with the same engine instead of EcoBoost. What am I missing here ?

Falcon sales are only dwindling because of lack of interest by Ford themselves. The upper echelons of management has told Ford Oz to slowly can it. Erode sales over time then we can bin it.

Does anyone remember the hype surrounding the release of the BA ? I do. The drip feed of how it would look, the engineering. It was friggin excellent. We even got invited to a pre-release presentation by a dealer. The excitement was superb and we couldn't wait until it was released. Once released and after test driving, Ford Oz had sales in our direct family of 3 sedans and a ute. Now if Ford show the passion then the public will take notice. Period.
Geoff Polites would be turning in his grave RIP.

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by I6DOHC

...This is in government fleets as well. Why not a falcon ute? As many others have said, there are plenty of hyundai, kia's puttering about in goverment fleets. I've seen police based mitsubishi lancers and other 4 cylinder vehicles. Why not ecoboost or ecoLPi? Given these are purchases made by our governments (our employees), and hearing the rhetoric preached by the so called 'leaders' of both parties in the wake of the 23rd May, this should be an easy fix. Think about it, add another 10,000 or up to 20,000 base fleet purchases a year onto the current volume...

Your forgetting one thing, people need to drive those Government vehicles and for the same reason the wider community isnt buying them still applies. I cannot get my Falcon into our driveway for its large turning circle and small lane access, it lives invariably 1,2, or 3 streets away depending on where I can get a carpark most people don't like this and many have similar constraints, just another of the reasons for dwindling sales.
Plus Government gave lots of money to help develop a local manufactured ford that met their fleet requirements and Ford still didn't manage to meet that criteria, remember the furor a few months ago on these very Australian Falcon Forum pages...
JP

[I6DOHC]

Originally Posted by GT-spec15

Are you offering to spearhead this nationwide campaign?

Why not. Have I got your vote?

Originally Posted by GT-spec15

Are you offering to spearhead this nationwide campaign? Very easy to theorise in a forum post, very hard to 'do'.

So you don't think government fleets should be filled with Australian made vehicles where fit for purpose?

Originally Posted by GT-spec15

Are you trying to save Falcon, or Australian manufacturing? If the latter, do you have a plan to save other sectors that are heading offshore?

Yes

[joeyy17]

Originally Posted by westy73

I think you have just shown the exact problem he is talking about.
Total resignation that is inherent with our Australian culture these days.
Are you a sheep who just follows along without standing up to be counted ?

I for one second and third the enthusiasm. Basically if you show Ford USA we don't want their imports but would rather retain and buy their Australian made product then surely they will listen. They have tried imports from the USA and have failed miserably in the past. Do you honestly think that won't happen again ? Then Ford won't get money from imports nor from a local product. Is that what you want ??

Standup all of you Ford Australia lovers and be counted. Like he said it's 3 years and 5 months till d-day. Don't give up just yet. Use your damn voices and make some noise.

Need more people like this ^^^

[I6DOHC]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

I cannot get my Falcon into our driveway for its large turning circle JP

I sympathise the lane access and your specific situation, however I'm not sure the generalisation about 'large' turning circle. When compared to a Honda Accord Euro it beats it hands down. 11m for falcon versus 12.1m for the Honda Accord.

http://euro.honda.com.au/about-the-c...fications.aspx

(I only knew that because conveniently my mate has an Accord Euro and was amazed at how nimble my falcon actually was).

[GT-spec15]

Originally Posted by I6DOHC

Why not. Have I got your vote?

You're free to do whatever you like, good luck with it and keep us posted on the campaign.

[westy73]

Originally Posted by GT-spec15

You're twisting my words.

I will happily buy Australian if a local equivalent is available.

However, I will not buy something locally made if it is unsuitable for my purpose, simply to support local production.

For example...a Falcon is totally unsuitable for me.

Geddit?

Name 5 major Australian made purchases you have made in the last 5 years then ? Let's say 50K or less for starters ?

White Goods ? Probably not.
Electrical Goods ? Probably not.
Car ? Probably not ?
Groceries ? Probably some ?
Clothing ? Probably not ?

need I go on ? Geddit.

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by GT-spec15

Are you trying to save Falcon, or Australian manufacturing? If the latter, do you have a plan to save other sectors that are heading offshore?

Originally Posted by I6DOHC

Yes

Will you also be writing to FoA asking them to stop importing brake parts and purchase from local component manufacturer FMP?

Will you also be writing to FoA asking them to resurrect CMI?

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by GT-spec15

The problem with your statement is that such a narrow range of vehicles are manufactured here, and a Commo or Falcon is not for everyone.

I drive a WRX - show me an Australian manufactured alternative and I will be happy to buy it.

Dad drives a Navara Turbodiesel dual cab and a LandCruiser - what do we make that compares?

Sister drives a Pulsar - Cruze might be an alternative there, but was not around back in 2005.

Mum drives a 200SX - what do we make here in terms of lightweight RWD turbo sports cars?

So then, if I say that I have got in my 'mini' fleet that I have bought over the past few years and still have are:

2 Territories, the last one I picked up was a few weeks ago.

1 G6E

1 GT335

1 Ranger.

So that makes your point null and void?

They don't have a car that you want at the moment, neither do Subaru, Nissan, Toyota have something that I want. Ford do.

Point being, there are choices! Too many really but different things suit different people. Because things don't suit you doesn't mean that they are not worthy of being made nor are they unloved by others.

[GT-spec15]

Originally Posted by westy73

Name 5 major Australian made purchases you have made in the last 5 years then ? Let's say 50K or less for starters ?

White Goods ? Probably not.
Electrical Goods ? Probably not.
Car ? Probably not ?
Groceries ? Probably some ?
Clothing ? Probably not ?

need I go on ? Geddit.

Are you suggesting all those items should still be made locally? Please tell me more!

[GT-spec15]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

Because things don't suit you doesn't mean that they are not worthy of being made nor are they unloved by others.

You're a bit confused.

I am not suggesting Falcon/Territory are unloved - they are simply not loved by nearly enough people anymore. Simple as that.

[Lotte]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

So then, if I say that I have got in my 'mini' fleet that I have bought over the past few years and still have are:

2 Territories, the last one I picked up was a few weeks ago.

1 G6E

1 GT335

1 Ranger.

So that makes your point null and void?

They don't have a car that you want at the moment, neither do Subaru, Nissan, Toyota have something that I want. Ford do.

Point being, there are choices! Too many really but different things suit different people. Because things don't suit you doesn't mean that they are not worthy of being made nor are they unloved by others.

^^ This. Times a bajillion.