New Ecoboost 3.5L Twin Turbo Engines, Future of Falcon

[4.0i OHC]

Does anyone know the weight distribution of the Mondeo Ecoboost?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by 4.0i OHC

Does anyone know the weight distribution of the Mondeo Ecoboost?

Given a 60/40 weight distribution a 1610 Kg diesel Mondeo would be as nose heavy as a Boss 5.4 Falcon...
even with a 50 Kg drop in nose weight for EB Mondeo, it's still up around 60/40 weight distribution..
Since the press are saying that the1640 Kg Ecoboost Falcon has near on 50/50 weight balance,
it has roughly 80 Kgs less weight over the front wheels, no wonder the EB Falcon feels great to drive..

Conversely EB Mondeo has about 30Kg more weight over the front wheels compared to Falcon
The important thing to remember is where the weight sits and having an engine/gearbox forward of the
front wheels is never conducive to handling....

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Less losses through drivetrain, no tail shaft so more room for passengers, handles better in crap conditions because more weight over the driving and steering wheels and a transverse engine setup means more leg room.

The only negative I see is bogans won't like it because they can't do fully sick burnouts bro.

OH BUT WHAT ABOUT TOWING! I hear in the back, its called a dual cab ute or SUV buddy

Less drive line loss yes. But there is only so much power, and size packaging you can put through the front axle. FWD cars can also get their tails out in bad weather... and if it's front heavy... just makes it worse.

As you can see there are still sound reasons for a RWD layout. FWD is more appreciated by the bean counters.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

Less drive line loss yes. But there is only so much power, and size packaging you can put through the front axle. FWD cars can also get their tails out in bad weather... and if it's front heavy... just makes it worse.

As you can see there are still sound reasons for a RWD layout. FWD is more appreciated by the bean counters.

And since Ecoboost Falcon gives almost identical fuel economy to FWD Ecoboost Mondeo the lines blurr...
Maybe FoA is underscoring the result to prove a point with Dearborn, all with Derrick Kuzak's help and approval..

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

And since Ecoboost Falcon gives almost identical fuel economy to FWD Ecoboost Mondeo the lines blurr...
Maybe FoA is underscoring the result to prove a point with Dearborn, all with Derrick Kuzak's help and approval..

Funny. Sometimes the comments from Derrick I have read seem that he couldn't give two stuff's.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

Funny. Sometimes the comments from Derrick I have read seem that he couldn't give two stuff's.

Really?
When Burela asked him, he couldn't do enough to help and was instrumental in making the project happen....

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Really?
When Burela asked him, he couldn't do enough to help and was instrumental in making the project happen....

Well I can't speak on his commitment in person to the project. As someone not affiliated with FoMoCo... living on the other side of the country who doesn't even work in the automotive industry. I can only gather what I glean from articles.

[My poor XF]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

The only negative I see is bogans won't like it because they can't do fully sick burnouts bro.

Sorry damo but that's rediculous and almost offensive.

I have never done a burnout nor am I a bogan but hey I must be because I prefer rwd.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

Well I can't speak on his commitment in person to the project.

You don't have to, he received praise for assistance from Burela who said Kuzak was instrumental in making it happen.

That was documented in the press from marin Burela himself
As someone not affiliated with FoMoCo... living on the other side of the country who doesn't even work in the automotive industry. I can only gather what I glean from articles.

Read more articles, you're inferring something that's really not there..

LINK
Mr Burela said key Ford personnel in Detroit were helping with the decision.

“The level of intensity that has been applied to that is beyond comprehension, even to the extent that my friend and colleague Derrick Kuzak, who is the global head of PD (product development) for Ford Motor Company, is personally involved.

“He is working with us to help us get to the best solution.

“That shows you the level of focus that Ford Motor Company is applying to making sure we get this right.”

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

You don't have to, he received prasie for assistance from Burela who said Kuzak was instrumental in making it happen.

Read more articles, you're inferring something that's really not there..

You're probably right. But we all get in this rut of pessimism. And it's the other's job to inspire us with hope. So do your job John... and inspire me with hope.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

You're probably right. But we all get in this rut of pessimism. And it's the other's job to inspire us with hope. So do your job John... and inspire me with hope.

He he, some times we have to vent, get the poison out...I understand perfectly.

Just look at the "Cortina quote" and think of the possibilities, smaller, lighter Falcon,
more affordable and more people interested in buying, that IMO is Ford's future..

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

He he, some times we have to vent, get the poison out...I understand perfectly.

Just look at the "Cortina quote" and think of the possibilities, smaller, lighter Falcon,
more affordable and more people interested in buying, that IMO is Ford's future..

The only way I see out is Falcon becoming an underpinning for a Lincoln. To accommodate the premium it incurs now. It could be built here too and exported to RHD markets. Lincoln used to be sold very recently and still could be... in the U.K. If Ford is serious about it being a great luxury marque again... it could get the budget to compete with euro equiv's. 5 Series, E series, ASomethingorrather.

4, 6, and 8 cylinder powerplants, in sport, luxury, or sport luxury trims.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

The problem here is that buyers are not even looking at Falcon, either poor marketing is to blame or people just don't want it anymore.
Either way, Ford needs to seriously question every decision they make from here on in, saving money is important but equally,
fostering and developing a product that has a great chance of taking hold is far more important, the right choices from here on are vital.

I was referring to a global market for Falcon, not just here in Oz. Ford have nothing like it anywhere now the Crown Vic/Marquis/Town Car are gone. Going global would be the only way to save it as our volumes are now no longer enough.

Originally Posted by 4.0i OHC

If Ford absolutely must stop producing the Falcon, I believe that it would be best if no other large car were offered. Let the Falcon rest in peace. Importing a complete Mondeo range (complete with 2.2 TDCi, 179kW Ecoboost and manual) would be the best option in my view; in most countries the Mondeo is the largest Ford offered (it's pretty huge inside, and has absolutely no problems carting around a family of five in comfort). I would hate to see Ford's reputation (within the car enthusiast community at least) for making driver's cars to completely vanish with the arrival of a 2-tonne V6 yankmobile which wallows all over the road as Ford's Australian flagship.

I agree. Putting Falcon badges on a Mondeo/Fusion/Taurus would be a discrace.

Originally Posted by jpd80

And since Ecoboost Falcon gives almost identical fuel economy to FWD Ecoboost Mondeo the lines blurr...
Maybe FoA is underscoring the result to prove a point with Dearborn, all with Derrick Kuzak's help and approval..

Kuzak's retiring in a month or so so he's no longer going to be able to do anything.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Kuzak's retiring in a month or so so he's no longer going to be able to do anything.

His successor, Raj Nair is a good guy who values regional projects. We still have no Idea of China's big car needs..

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

His successor, Raj Nair is a good guy who values regional projects. We still have no Idea of China's big car needs..

The Chinese government protects their industry too much for Falcon to be exported there. It could only work with it being made there.

Damn our pssweak government, we should protect our industries the same way.

[FPV GTHO]

And a midsized RWD Lincoln would equally only work if it was built in the US.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The Chinese government protects their industry too much for Falcon to be exported there. It could only work with it being made there.

You still don't get it.
The cost savings in development and production of car don't come from the production floor as much,
they are mostly achieved as a co-development design and by using common supplier chains.

The fact that a Falcon would cost slightly more to build in Australia is not the point, it's whether
the cost of cancelling the 2014 Falcon and just importing a RHD Taurus would be worth the effort.

As the ill fated V6 Falcon showed, sometimes following the path of least resistance is better
than doing any change mid cycle. Kill the Falcon in Australia and Ford has to find:
- redundancies for 1500 odd workers, cover their currently under funded pension plans
- spend money developing a RHD Taurus and get it through all the development stages.

Between those two steps, you've probably peed around $600 million up against the wall when
the 2014 update costs only $50 million to Ford with Vic and Aust. governments chipping in the rest.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

You still don't get it.
The cost savings in development and production of car don't come from the production floor as much,
they are mostly achieved as a co-development design and by using common supplier chains.

The fact that a Falcon would cost slightly more to build in Australia is not the point, it's whether
the cost of cancelling the 2014 Falcon and just importing a RHD Taurus would be worth the effort.

As the ill fated V6 Falcon showed, sometimes following the path of least resistance is better
than doing any change mid cycle. Kill the Falcon in Australia and Ford has to find:
- redundancies for 1500 odd workers, cover their currently under funded pension plans
- spend money developing a RHD Taurus and get it through all the development stages.

Between those two steps, you've probably peed around $600 million up against the wall when
the 2014 update costs only $50 million to Ford with Vic and Aust. governments chipping in the rest.

Paying redundancies and not bothering with anything bigger than Mondeo more likely. They just shut the tool room yesterday, there was only 14 people left but shows they never intend to do anything in regard to making dies for new panels again.

At one stage it was the biggest tool room in the southern hemisphere, they were even doing work making tailplane parts for Boeing.

Another nail in the coffin.

Even if Falcon could be built in China why would they bother making any here with such tiny volumes?

[Chilliman]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Paying redundancies and not bothering with anything bigger than Mondeo more likely.

In which case the only positive will be that we'll finally get the 177kW EcoBoost option for Mondeo. I guess its too much to hope that we could at least assemble a CKD Mondeo/Fusion?

I'm leaning towards the Fusion name just to give Ford Australia a fresh new start post-Falcon.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by My poor XF

Sorry damo but that's rediculous and almost offensive.

I have never done a burnout nor am I a bogan but hey I must be because I prefer rwd.

My bad I didn't mean to offend, but I don't see the point in RWD at all unless you want a big power/torque figure, even then take a look at the stuff Ford has done with the RS Focus, some pretty cool technology there to reduce torque steer, plus they make LSDs for FWD cars as well which will further reduce it.

You'll only get torque steer if you drive at close to 100% of what the car has anyways, I get barely any if at all in my TDCI Focus and its got 340nm from 2000 RPM.

For FPV you could have a transverse AWD setup with a rear bias, or a similar setup to Honda's SH-AWD system where it can send any amount of torque to which ever wheel(s) simultaneously at any given time to get the torque to the ground in the best possible way.

I reckon with FWD you'll cover 95% of the average joe buyers, and if Falcon was to go FWD you wouldn't even need it anymore, just rename the new Mondeo as Falcon or kill off the name all together, pretty similar in size those two cars, plus Mondeo has access to all the cool stuff because its a global car.

Having driven my Falcon, the Fiesta and the Focus, I can't really tell the difference between FWD/RWD in normal driving at all. I don't really care for V8s either and most likely never will (I can't drive one anyways and no doubt when I'm off my Ps it won't appeal to me then) and either does average joe car buyer.

[dimka100]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

shows they never intend to do anything in regard to making dies for new panels again.

Can you please explain what does that mean for those of us that don't know the car manufacturing process?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Paying redundancies and not bothering with anything bigger than Mondeo more likely. They just shut the tool room yesterday, there was only 14 people left but shows they never intend to do anything in regard to making dies for new panels again.

At one stage it was the biggest tool room in the southern hemisphere, they were even doing work making tailplane parts for Boeing.

Another nail in the coffin.

Even if Falcon could be built in China why would they bother making any here with such tiny volumes?

If you're not changing panels for the next four years, then there's no need for a tool room.
And if the next Falcon is a global platform, either RWD or FWD/AWD then the tooling
will come from elsewhere and be made up by another division making their own..

[The Stylist]

Originally Posted by jpd80

If you're not changing panels for the next four years, then there's no need for a tool room.
And if the next Falcon is a global platform, either RWD or FWD/AWD then the tooling
will come from elsewhere and be made up by another division making their own..

...Oh dear, it sounds like some internal decisions have been made - but where would this put the heavily revised 2014 Falcon - a no go?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by The Stylist

...Oh dear, it sounds like some internal decisions have been made - but where would this put the heavily revised 2014 Falcon - a no go?

No, 2014 was not to be heavily revised.
It's only $103 million so only slight changes front and back with more focus on fule economy improvements.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

If you're not changing panels for the next four years, then there's no need for a tool room.
And if the next Falcon is a global platform, either RWD or FWD/AWD then the tooling
will come from elsewhere and be made up by another division making their own..

And so we come back to the inevitable conclusion that the 2016 Falcon will be a Taurus. Yuck.
We can only hope that they do some substantial work under the car to give it decent steering and handling. 4.0l V6 turbo AWD might be ok?

[outback_ute]

Originally Posted by dimka100

Can you please explain what does that mean for those of us that don't know the car manufacturing process?

The dies are used to stamp the panels, no new dies mean no new (as in restyled) panels - unless they have already made the dies that is.

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

And so we come back to the inevitable conclusion that the 2016 Falcon will be a Taurus. Yuck.
We can only hope that they do some substantial work under the car to give it decent steering and handling. 4.0l V6 turbo AWD might be ok?

We dont even know what 2016 Taurus will be.

[4.0i OHC]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

And so we come back to the inevitable conclusion that the 2016 Falcon will be a Taurus. Yuck.
We can only hope that they do some substantial work under the car to give it decent steering and handling. 4.0l V6 turbo AWD might be ok?

I can't bear the thought of this. Ford should just top the range off with the Mondeo, mirroring the UK choices. Mondeos appeal to fleets; it seems that every second Mondeo is a white LX diesel. Bring us the full range, 2.2 TDCi, 179kW Ecoboost, manual across the range. While Ford is doing that, why not import the full Kuga range, as well as the C-Max (the car that apparently inherited the fun-to-drive torch from the old Focus) and B-Max.
Most brands do fine without an 'E' segment car; the best selling manufacturer doesn't even have one! Why replace the Falcon with the automotive equivalent of a Big Mac? The Taurus doesn't suit our market AT ALL!

Actually, despite how good the current Mondeo is, I'm beginning to have reservations about the next generation Mondeo. It will be Ford's first D-segment car built under that idiotic One Ford plan. This means one design for every market!! We already witnessed the massive step backwards in terms of steering and handling with the Focus. I DON'T want it to happen with the Mondeo.

[FPV GTHO]

Next Mondeo is still CD technically, and whilst it is the first "One Ford" large car, in essence it is a major update on the current Mondeo whilst CD3 Fusion gets dumped and takes 99% of the car.

[4.0i OHC]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

We dont even know what 2016 Taurus will be.

It'll most likely be a rubbish drive, it will probably weigh two tonnes and have less interior space than a Mondeo, the interior and exterior design will almost certainly stink of America (including that MyFord Sync Microsoft garbage), and the car will definitely come with a V6 and no manual. No thanks Ford US! We don't want it here!