Advanced Driving "P" Plate

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by D1XR2C

lol, well best of luck to your son 2.
I do have a plan though for a killa combo...
But back on topic p platers rule :thebirds:

Case 1 for restrictions....

[GXL078]

Advanced driving courses are for pussies and nobs. I see them every day outside my work. They cost the earth and teach nothing that experience can't. Just another short cut for the cashed-up want it now generation. I had never heard of them when I got my license, I didn't even have to do the bike course as they didnt have it where I lived. I just think they are for *******........

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I honestly dont know how anyone can possibly seriously suggest an immature driver with limited driving experience and driving in a reckless manner is not more of a risk in a high performance vehicle than in a std performance vehicle.

In the same way its allot harder to kill someone with an air rifle than with a M16....

Can anyone here produce irrefutable evidance that high performance vehicles catigorically DO NOT pose an evevated risk to younger inexperienced drivers?

An immature person will kill themselves in any car if driving in such as the car is driven beyond it's capabilities and the driver's skill.

It doesn't matter what car you die in, a death is a death! I highly doubt the family would find it to be any consolation.

I am waiting for the "evidence" aswell. I have posted a study many times which was WA fatalities using Victorian P-W laws.

Long Version

Short Version

This investigation has provided evidence to show that young
driver serious injury crashes are not characterised by ‘high’
vehicle PWR, nor is vehicle PWR statistically associated with
an increase in the odds of being involved in a serious injury
crash. These findings are limited to drivers younger than 20
years of age who have two years or less driving experience.

I have posted this many times but yet many skip over it because I'm one of those "young, immature, inexperienced, of tard breed" being discussed.

That is about as close to irrefutable evidence I could find and surely beats the RTA which is ZERO!

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

An immature person will kill themselves in any car if driving in such as the car is driven beyond it's capabilities and the driver's skill.

It doesn't matter what car you die in, a death is a death! I highly doubt the family would find it to be any consolation.

I am waiting for the "evidence" aswell. I have posted a study many times which was WA fatalities using Victorian P-W laws.

Long Version

Short Version




I have posted this many times but yet many skip over it because I'm one of those "young, immature, inexperienced, of tard breed" being discussed.

That is about as close to irrefutable evidence I could find and surely beats the RTA which is ZERO!

An immature person will kill themselves far easier in a high powered vehicle.. that's just simple logic and common sense, you can't argue that.

have you stopped and thought that maybe 99% of drivers U20 wouldnt be able to afford a high powered vehicle in the first place, so fatalities wouldnt necessarily show up the risk? Power restrictions already exist so that would effect stats too. What about the old saying " prevention is better than cure"?
It certainly can't hurt young drivers to restrict access to powerful vehicles can it....

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

An immature person will kill themselves far easier in a high powered vehicle.. that's just simple logic and common sense, you can't argue that.

You kidding me? For example drive my mate's N15 Pulsar than drive my 2003 WRX. Then tell me you are safer in that than my car even driven the same way.

Hell I can drive my car harder and it will **** on it. Whether a person does or not is up to attitude.

If 99% of drivers U20 wouldn't be able to afford a performance car than why enforce legislation which will affect 1% of the U20 category?

Because in affect it wouldn't apply to the 99% to begin with!

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

You kidding me? For example drive my mate's N15 Pulsar than drive my 2003 WRX. Then tell me you are safer in that than my car even driven the same way.

Hell I can drive my car harder and it will **** on it. Whether a person does or not is up to attitude.

If 99% of drivers U20 wouldn't be able to afford a performance car than why enforce legislation which will affect 1% of the U20 category?

Because in affect it wouldn't apply to the 99% to begin with!

You are totally missing the point.... Both vehicles are perfectly safe if driven sensibly... its the irresposible driving behaviour that's the main issue.

Anyway, its pointless us debating it, complain all you like, its a fact of life, you'll just have to get used to it.

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

You are totally missing the point.... Both vehicles are perfectly safe if driven sensibly... its the irresposible driving behaviour that's the main issue.

Anyway, its pointless us debating it, complain all you like, its a fact of life, you'll just have to get used to it.

Like I've said before, this legislation doesn't and never has affected me.

I'm fighting for the little guy which BS laws are enforced on because of a few who are immature.

The little guy who is deemed to know nothing or have a sense of nothing because of their age.

The little guy who is seen, but never heard when it comes to these topics because of few.

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

You are totally missing the point.... Both vehicles are perfectly safe if driven sensibly... its the irresposible driving behaviour that's the main issue.

Anyway, its pointless us debating it, complain all you like, its a fact of life, you'll just have to get used to it.

Looks like you win MITCHAY, sorry 4Vman, but i think it is you who is missing the point you have asked for evidence it has been provided, you ask for stats the closest we can come to them has been provided.

You come in to a debate, you put your 10 cents worth in and when the people against you provide the evidence proove you wrong, you back out with a "Get over it, get used to it policy"

Yes you are right that their are some people that cannot be helped, but this rule being in place or not being in place will not help them, it doesn't matter what these people drive, they won't be stopped from being idiot's.

Why not come up with something pro-active, like a reward scheme where if you go 12 months or 18 months without infringement, your licence is upgraded?

I understand you experience call, but we can only do so much, i have just started taking my car to the off street drags where i learnt alot about my car and it's and my abilitys i also plan on doing some advanced driving courses this year and hopefully some track days, im doing all i can to make myself a better driver as i know im lucky to have the car i have.

[MITCHAY]

And another topic FPV8U brought up. It punishes those who do take their cars to the proper place to go fast.

How many people can afford to have a performance car for the track and a daily driver in this age group because of these laws?

And if they were willing to drive in the proper place to begin with than obviously they were never in any elevated danger at all!

I know in my circumstances there's no way in hell I could keep my WRX and have a daily driver aswell.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

You kidding me? For example drive my mate's N15 Pulsar than drive my 2003 WRX. Then tell me you are safer in that than my car even driven the same way.

Hell I can drive my car harder and it will **** on it. Whether a person does or not is up to attitude.

If 99% of drivers U20 wouldn't be able to afford a performance car than why enforce legislation which will affect 1% of the U20 category?

Because in affect it wouldn't apply to the 99% to begin with!

There are two problems here.
1) You are taking all this as a personal attack.
2) You just don't get it.

Comparing your WRX to the pulsar:

Which handles better? The WRX? So it will go around round abouts like it is on rails and blast through 60km advisory corners (100 limit) at 100km/h easily. The pulsar scares the hell out of you at 70km/h.

So when you muff it because there is oil half way around a corner, which one is going faster OUT OF CONTROL?

How does the pulsar feel at 200km/h? Scarey? Or is it flat out at 180km/h and scary above 140km/h? The WRX is quite stable and in control at 200km/h.
Of course at 200km/h thing happen a lot faster than at 100km/h and it taks about 4 times the distance to stop plus twice the reaction distance.
Yes going that fast can be silly depending on where you are but going that fast and not havng the experience to understand what is actually happening is usually fatal.
How are the brakes on your WRX? Bloody amazing eh? Extremely safe and comforting.
You can late brake into corners and have a ball......until you miss the brake pedal of there is something under your feet and then you have no time to work out what to do.

You talk about immature driving beyong their skill. How do they know their limits? How do YOU know your limits?
Have you driven at 160km/h, 200km/h, 250km/h, not just a burst but sustained?
Have you driven for several days in a row covering many thousands on kilometres?
Have you driven into a flooded causeway at speed?
Have you hit a cow or large kangaroo?
Have you had a truck lose it's load in front of you?
Have you had a flat tyre at speed?
Have you oversteered off a corner?
Have you understeered off a corner?
Have you had your brakes run out while descending a long windy range?
Have you hit a fog bank or smoke in the dark at speed?

If you can answer yes to all these then I have about a bazillion more. If you answer no then you DO NOT know your limits.

You may be safe and better than Craig Lowndes but the majority are not.

Everyone needs to learn and the less likelyhood of injury when you make a mistake, the better off you are.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by FPV8U

Looks like you win MITCHAY, sorry 4Vman, but i think it is you who is missing the point you have asked for evidence it has been provided, you ask for stats the closest we can come to them has been provided.

You come in to a debate, you put your 10 cents worth in and when the people against you provide the evidence proove you wrong, you back out with a "Get over it, get used to it policy"

Yes you are right that their are some people that cannot be helped, but this rule being in place or not being in place will not help them, it doesn't matter what these people drive, they won't be stopped from being idiot's.

Why not come up with something pro-active, like a reward scheme where if you go 12 months or 18 months without infringement, your licence is upgraded?

I understand you experience call, but we can only do so much, i have just started taking my car to the off street drags where i learnt alot about my car and it's and my abilitys i also plan on doing some advanced driving courses this year and hopefully some track days, im doing all i can to make myself a better driver as i know im lucky to have the car i have.

Are you saying there is no evidence to support the theory that immature and inexperienced young drivers aren't more at risk in higher powered cars? Common sense alone would bring anyone who was honest with themselves to the conclusion that they are more at risk. Id rather swerve an out of control P plater in a 180 B who lost it at 50kph than dodge one in a Clubsport at 150kph..
In any event there is no "winner or looser", its a good sprited discussion, this is not a personal attack against you, or anyone, its just trying to reason common sense with a group of people who a fearful of loosing a privlige, this "debate" has little to do with whats safe or isnt safe does it, now be honest... its about loosing what some of you appear to believe is your right, and you're kicking and screaming about it, this line of thinking is fundamentally flawed.
If you really want to feel angry or agrieved then channel your energy's against the real enemy's, those irresponsible young drivers who are recking it for the rest of you..
In any case ts also good to see you're taking responsibility for your ability too.

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Are you saying there is no evidence to support the theory that immature and inexperienced young drivers aren't more at risk in higher powered cars? Common sense alone would bring anyone who was honest with themselves to that conclusion.
In any event there is no "winner or looser", its a good sprited discussion, this is not a personal attack against you, or anyone, its just trying to reason common sense with a group of people who a fearful of loosing a privlige, this "debate" has little to do with whats safe or isnt safe does it, now be honest... its about loosing what some of you appear to believe is your right, and you're kicking and screaming about it, this line of thinking is fundamentally flawed.
If you really want to feel angry or agrieved then channel your energy's against the real enemy's, those irresponsible young drivers who are recking it for the rest of you..
In any case ts also good to see you're taking responsibility for your ability too.

Common sence does tell you that Immature & Experienced Your driver and HP cars don't mix, i understand the concept of these laws is about saving people from themselves.

But when are people going to take resposibility for themselves?

Without sounding like a whinger i don't feel it's fair that if i had an Victorian Licence i wouldn't be allowed to drive my car because some bunch morons cannot control their driving behaviour on public roads.

And sadly the chances are that these same bunch of idiots are the ones we see on the news, another VN/VR/VS/VT around a pole, all 6 cylinder base models, with similar cheap 17" or 18" wheels, when you hear about "Another P Plater Death" i can almost visualise the car before i see it.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by FPV8U

Common sence does tell you that Immature & Experienced Your driver and HP cars don't mix, i understand the concept of these laws is about saving people from themselves.

But when are people going to take resposibility for themselves?

Without sounding like a whinger i don't feel it's fair that if i had an Victorian Licence i wouldn't be allowed to drive my car because some bunch morons cannot control their driving behaviour on public roads.

And sadly the chances are that these same bunch of idiots are the ones we see on the news, another VN/VR/VS/VT around a pole, all 6 cylinder base models, with similar cheap 17" or 18" wheels, when you hear about "Another P Plater Death" i can almost visualise the car before i see it.

Ahhh! there my good friend lies the problem, how do you identify the "good" or "bad" young drivers?? You CAN'T! Yes as sad as it may be its not possible, so unfortunatly you have to legislate for the entire demographic in question.
Trust me, the young and immature ones have done themselves no favours in
vic recently with a number of serious incidents.. so expect the scrutiny to get worse because of the "bad eggs"....

[flappist]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Ahhh! there my good friend lies the problem, how do you identify the "good" or "bad" young drivers?? You CAN'T! Yes as sad as it may be its not possible, so unfortunatly you have to legislate for the entire demographic in question.

We could start a poll....

Q: Are you an above average highly experienced driver?

o YES
o Not sure, I don't have a provisional licence

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by flappist

We could start a poll....

Q: Are you an above average highly experienced driver?

o YES
o Not sure, I don't have a provisional licence

LOL, how true...

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Ahhh! there my good friend lies the problem, how do you identify the "good" or "bad" young drivers?? You CAN'T! Yes as sad as it may be its not possible, so unfortunatly you have to legislate for the entire demographic in question.
Trust me, the young and immature ones have done themselves no favours in
vic recently with a number of serious incidents.. so expect the scrutiny to get worse because of the "bad eggs"....

No you cannot seperate the Good/bad young drivers...

But the point myself and MITCHAY are trying to get accross is that woh is P/W going to help these people, it's not!

Im not going to say that the new rule in NSW Caused the rise in deaths, evan though the stats say so, but it is obovious from the result that these laws will not save people from themselves.

So why have a law that doesnt help those who need it, but doesn't allow those who are sensible to have a nice car to enjoy?

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by flappist

We could start a poll....

Q: Are you an above average highly experienced driver?

o YES
o Not sure, I don't have a provisional licence

Not all of us are Tossers Flappist, please give me a break :

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by flappist

We could start a poll....

Q: Are you an above average highly experienced driver?

o YES
o Not sure, I don't have a provisional licence

Funnily enough many who are 25+ would answer yes when in general observation it quite cleary isn't the case.

Like I said before many have age and experience on their side so what is their excuse for their crap driving? It all boils down to attitude.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by FPV8U

No you cannot seperate the Good/bad young drivers...

But the point myself and MITCHAY are trying to get accross is that woh is P/W going to help these people, it's not!

Im not going to say that the new rule in NSW Caused the rise in deaths, evan though the stats say so, but it is obovious from the result that these laws will not save people from themselves.

So why have a law that doesnt help those who need it, but doesn't allow those who are sensible to have a nice car to enjoy?

You cannot say it wont help, simple.

The only possible way you could say it wasnt successful is if careful analysis was done after the rules have been in place for many years if, and only if you knew what the risk was before, and that's providing the data is even recorded in that way at all....
One things for sure though, introducing these laws wont INCREASE the road toll, and you CANT say it wont decrease the road toll, so it cant be a bad thing can it..

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

One things for sure though, introducing these laws wont INCREASE the road toll

Well the evidence says they do, i suppose thats where it gets confusing for your argument :

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by FPV8U

Well the evidence says they do, i suppose thats where it gets confusing for your argument :

Im sorry but youre Wrong.

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Wrong.

Please Expand?

I seem to remember a 37% increase from memory in P Plater deaths since the law was brough in, unless you have something that states otherwise?

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by FPV8U

Please Expand?

I seem to remember a 37% increase from memory in P Plater deaths since the law was brough in, unless you have something that states otherwise?

Ive got no idea where you dragged those figures from????
But anyway surely you're not that silly to suggest that restricting access to high powered vehicles has increased the road toll for P platers? is that what you guys are basing your whole arguement around? :

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Ive got no idea where you dragged those figues from????
But anyway surely you're not that silly to suggest that restricting access to high powered vehicles has increased the road toll for P platers? is that what you guys are basing your whole arguement around? :

More Evidence than your argument seems to have :

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by FPV8U

Please Expand?

I seem to remember a 37% increase from memory in P Plater deaths since the law was brough in, unless you have something that states otherwise?

Exactly! Game, set, match :P Either way you look at it the government has egg on their face.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by FPV8U

More Evidence that your argument seems to have :

Oh dear... ok, i'll leave you kids to it, it seems there's no point debating this if the whole credibility of the debate gets thrown out with rediculous and wildely inaccurate stats and statements.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Funnily enough many who are 25+ would answer yes when in general observation it quite cleary isn't the case.

Like I said before many have age and experience on their side so what is their excuse for their crap driving? It all boils down to attitude.

No one answered, it was not real......

The point is:

Ask everyone you know if they THINK they are an above average driver. You will get a very high percentage of yes but 100% of new players will say they are. It is just human nature.
The older you get the more cowardly you become becaue you become very aware you are not immortal and have had a few frights already.

Which soldiers are sent up the hill to flush out a machinegun nest? The old ones? No way, they won't go. The young ones? Of course, they can do anything......

Another question, two parts.
1) How long have you held a licence?
2) How many hours or kilometres have you been driving for?

When you can answer part 2 with at least a 6 digit number for kms or 4 digit number number for hours then you don't have much experience do you?

If you have 10,000 kms at an average of 50km/h then you have 200 hrs or basicly 5 weeks at work or about 8 weeks at school.

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Oh dear... ok, i'll leave you kids to it, it seems there's no point debating this if the whole credibility of the debate gets thrown out with rediculous and wildely inaccurate stats and statements.

Once again 4V man, i like a good debate and it's pretty obvious we have two for and two against, feel free to throw all the "Facts" that you can at us, but since the Government, Press & Public love to throw statistics at us why don't you find some to support your argument, not just personal opinion.

[MITCHAY]

I have done roughly 50,000kms in 5-6 years driving. In that time I have experienced a variable amount of traffic conditions.

I have driven through flooded causeways, driven through roads covered with sheep and cattle, hit roos, driven in blinding rain, driven in hail, driven through bushfires, driven through rather unsafe and demanding roads, etc etc.

Originally Posted by flappist

No one answered, it was not real......

That is why I said "would" ;) Future tense.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by FPV8U

Once again 4V man, i like a good debate and it's pretty obvious we have two for and two against, feel free to throw all the "Facts" that you can at us, but since the Government, Press & Public love to throw statistics at us why don't you find some to support your argument, not just personal opinion.

Well here are some facts:
Ever since the VE commodore won COTY the price of bananas is Woollworths has been less than $2/kg.

Oh something more automotive:

There were no road deaths in NT last Christmas until the 130km/h speed limit was introduced.

Or something closer to the topic:

The last road death involving a QLD registered vehicle with P plates was in 1976.

Do you need any other stupid, useless but totally accurate facts?

Another thing you will learns as you get older is that government stats are ALWAYS massaged to fit into their agenda.
The vast majority of people killed with guns in Australia in the 20th century were with single shot, what are now "cat A" firearms. They are not banned, semi autos are..........

And that is a FACT.....