Overtaking, Just how hard it is to do it Safely and Legally! - Page 5

tweeked · 09-09-2012, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seedywagon

Referring to my training in transport/traffic engineering, overtaking is one of the most risky maneuvers undertaken on the road. Road engineers go to considerable length, trawling through a tonne of traffic data, which includes casualty rates caused by various overtaking situations, in order to assign a solution that best fits the situation at hand. There are *so* many factors at play here, everything from traffic volumes, stopping-sight distance, superelevation rate-of-rotation and road operating speeds. Speed limits are assigned based on an innumerate set of variables, they aren't set 'on a whim' just to **** people off or to defy 'logic'
I have a problem with members of the public who say things like 'this speed limit is too slow' based on what feels right to them. The figures just don't lie when it comes to speed, if you don't believe me, get out your calculator and physics textbooks and crunch the numbers yourself. Your roads are designed to be traveled at the posted speed limits, and they're not going to show you any sympathy if you're speeding, even whilst overtaking.

I have no formal transport engineering qualifications, but unless I made some mistakes, there seems to be an issue with overtaking. So with the figures "that do not lie" in the opening post, what would your recommendation be to the legislators?

1. Make overtaking illegal unless the car in front is doing a speed that allows a speed differential of at least 20kph so that all of the other safety criteria can be satisfied while the overtake is performed.

2. Allow a vehicle to accelerate to up to 120kph and overtake a maximum of 2 vehicles at a time. The overlimit speed is only allowed immediately before and after the actual overtake and the vehicle must return to the speed limit before performing another overtake. Only allowed on single lane hiughways posted at 100kph or higher. All other current specifics in regards to vehile spacing would still apply. (this must be an item in the license training and test).

3. Its is not broken at the moment so just leave it.

4. Something else?

Massi · 09-09-2012, 01:33 PM

Anyone else notice the person your overtaking generally speeds up slightly when you start to pass? Be overtaking lane or single lane overtake? Drives me nuts when someone is sitting 10km under the limit then gets to overtaking lane and goes to 105km...

My younger Brother is a cop at Coffs Harbour, NSW and he said you cannot exceed the limit under any circumstances. Not even when overtaking.

grandpa_spec_F6 · 09-09-2012, 03:50 PM

Massi, I think sometimes people don't realise they are under the speed limit and someone passing them nudges their brain into gear, so they speed up to the posted limit.

If I'm ever in that situation I wait for them to pass me, then speed up to the posted limit. If I have to pass them so be it, otherwise it's all good.

The ones who speed up are dangerous as it just creates frustration in the person trying to pass. The other danger is cars who speed up behind the slow car are now blocking you from merging back behind them into the left lane. So you can either slow right down and hope like hell someone lets you back into the left lane, all the while enraging the people behind you in the passing lane, or... hoof it and get in front of the person you were trying to pass.

danmc · 09-09-2012, 05:11 PM

I just realised I can't drive my car safely without a calculator, a slide rule, graph paper, note books, a pen, engineering reference books and the phone number of an engineer.

Then I need binoculars so I can look ahead to see when the speed limit changes.

Oops must not forget the 100 meter tape so I can measure safe distances.

But how do I calculate the speed of the other traffic? I can still fit a radar gun in I suppose. I better carry the latest set of road rules to refer to as well.

No wonder my government treats me like a criminal, I've been driving around for decades just using my common sense and by pure luck have not had any accidents.

**Silver Ghia** · 09-09-2012, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seedywagon

Referring to my training in transport/traffic engineering, overtaking is one of the most risky maneuvers undertaken on the road. Road engineers go to considerable length, trawling through a tonne of traffic data, which includes casualty rates caused by various overtaking situations, in order to assign a solution that best fits the situation at hand. There are *so* many factors at play here, everything from traffic volumes, stopping-sight distance, superelevation rate-of-rotation and road operating speeds. Speed limits are assigned based on an innumerate set of variables, they aren't set 'on a whim' just to **** people off or to defy 'logic'
I have a problem with members of the public who say things like 'this speed limit is too slow' based on what feels right to them. The figures just don't lie when it comes to speed, if you don't believe me, get out your calculator and physics textbooks and crunch the numbers yourself. Your roads are designed to be traveled at the posted speed limits, and they're not going to show you any sympathy if you're speeding, even whilst overtaking.

Hmmm, so it doesnt matter whether you are driving a Ferrari easily capable of say 250kph, which probably brakes in a shorter distance at that speed as an old VW beetle or a B-double doing 100kph, they are all unsafe at 120kph in a 100 zone.

Wouldn't the factors that derive the speed limits be based on the worst vehicle configuration, in which you probably wouldnt even consider passing other vehicles doing anywhere near the speed limit?

new2ford · 09-09-2012, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danmc

I just realised I can't drive my car safely without a calculator, a slide rule, graph paper, note books, a pen, engineering reference books and the phone number of an engineer.

Then I need binoculars so I can look ahead to see when the speed limit changes.

Oops must not forget the 100 meter tape so I can measure safe distances.

.

You forgot the wireless EFTPOS machine for quick payments to State Treasury.

danmc · 09-09-2012, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by new2ford

You forgot the wireless EFTPOS machine for quick payments to State Treasury.

Thats too slow, really we should just have joint accounts with the state.

new2ford · 09-09-2012, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danmc

Thats too slow, really we should just have joint accounts with the state.

That would be quite advantageous actually. While they would get very little out of my account I could happily empty the NSW state budget into my condo in Bermuda.

Ben73 · 09-09-2012, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seedywagon

Referring to my training in transport/traffic engineering, overtaking is one of the most risky maneuvers undertaken on the road. Road engineers go to considerable length, trawling through a tonne of traffic data, which includes casualty rates caused by various overtaking situations, in order to assign a solution that best fits the situation at hand. There are *so* many factors at play here, everything from traffic volumes, stopping-sight distance, superelevation rate-of-rotation and road operating speeds. Speed limits are assigned based on an innumerate set of variables, they aren't set 'on a whim' just to **** people off or to defy 'logic'
I have a problem with members of the public who say things like 'this speed limit is too slow' based on what feels right to them. The figures just don't lie when it comes to speed, if you don't believe me, get out your calculator and physics textbooks and crunch the numbers yourself. Your roads are designed to be traveled at the posted speed limits, and they're not going to show you any sympathy if you're speeding, even whilst overtaking.

Do these road engineers use two different formulas for city and country roads.
Because I have seen so many examples of conflicting speeds it's not funny.

Main thoroughfares in country towns are almost always 50km/h.
While in cities they are 60 or 70km/h

The Newcastle city bypass at Charlestown is a good quality road that is similar to the F3 freeway.
I don't get how the F3 is 110 while the bypass is 90. The bypass is probably a better and safer road. It also probably has less traffic off peak.

So if road engineers use special formulas, how do similar roads have such big differences in speed. Is that just a work of the local government?

joolz · 09-09-2012, 08:14 PM

For me the worst are the ones that simply cant keep a constand speed. They think its perfecty ok to vary between 90-100 yet when an over taking lane appears they speed up to 100-105. I see this almost every time between Ballarat and Stawell on the Western Hwy. Very limited over taking lanes and the shortest one just outside Great Western (Melbourne side) which is only 700mts long!! Ive also seen various times either speed cameras on the over taking lanes near Beaufort and Great Western and TOG patrolling over taking lanes. I believe it should be legal in an over taking lane to do 120km/h only in the right lane and the left 100km/h. Now wouldnt that be hard for the cameras to control but IMO it would make it safer and faster to over take as so many times ive been stuck behind a car overtaking at 100-105 with under 500mts of overtaking lane left and something beside me like a B Double. The car infront would rather keep to the law than prevent the car behind being forced into oncoming traffic..

Rusty_91 · 10-09-2012, 01:20 AM

i got given a speeding fine for 124 in a 100 zone i was doing 137 but as i had just overtaken the officer dropped it down. i was impatient and it didnt require the 137 but 120 is perfectly safe to do. if youre car in youre eyes isnt safe to do such a "dangerous" speed take it off the road, ive got a 2005 ba sr ive overtaken plenty of things and its plenty easy enough to hit 160 going past a single car. thats not to say i havent been stuck behind a row of cars and all have been to scared to overtake and ive seen ample oppourtunity and gone for it speedo swings up to 200 in about 20 seconds from the 80 90 speeds yet ive neither been issued a fine or died as that is what brakes are for to bring youre vehicle down in speed alas back to posted speed limit. spending 2 minutes in the wrong lane is just stupid, spend 15 seconds in the wrong lane and use .01mm of youre brake pads to slow down is smart....... rant over

danmc · 10-09-2012, 04:12 AM

Ahh safe modern cars are so boring. Our family van would blat up to 150 plus overtaking (not that I've ever done that on the road, just speculation of course based on the fact that she can do that on private roads and racetracks.

Its an elgrand with 180 kw or thereabouts VQ35DE, 4wd auto traction control, radar cruise and emergency braking. Yep - the thing will slam on the brakes if the car in front does, not sure if it does it only on cruise control tho never tried otherwise.

On gravel its a demon, 4 wheel traction is awesome. But oh so boring. At 110 you feel like you are sitting at the kitchen table or maybe on the dunny at home (with no newspaper to read)

My transit is much more fun. About 5 kilowatt and seems like 5000 tonnes she brakes and turns like the Titanic (after the iceberg). You really have to try just to keep it at the speed limit. You would think I was ticket proof but no, a few k's over when they put the camera at the bottom of a hill.

Bloody gravity, siding with the law.

I dont think I've ever overtaken someone in the Transit so the speed vs overtake debate doesn't worry me in her. I almost caught up to a moped being driven by a fat kid once though, quite proud that day.

ebv8 · 10-09-2012, 08:13 AM

i understand drivers speed up when you overtake them on a country road as you generally overtake on a straight clear road and they speed up as its straight as most sunday drivers go slow on bend and faster on straight (nothing worse than that) but what ***** me is when you are the 6th car coming up to an overtaking lane and every car speeds ups so in order to overtake you have to speed for the entire distance of the lane to get around which i don't do so i have to deal with them all slowing down again after the overtaking lane and then i can't overtake on a normal road because the cars bunch up leaving no safe re entry gap.

2011G6E · 10-09-2012, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

100k trip is a drive to the shops and what what wife drives daily to work.

The whole of Australia is not like where you are........

Yep...it's 100km in one direction for us to the nearest decent supermarket and shops, and 170km in the other. Being stuck behind some numptie doing 80 to 90kph drives you insane.

I have no problem waiting for a safe overtaking opportunity behind someone doing 95 or possible 90, but follow a car towing a small caravan at 70 to 80kph, and you'll start gnawing the steering wheel.

The problem is that the law doesn't recognise that the majority of people have a brain in thier head and just want to get past the slowpoke in front of them and then go back to the speed limit to cruise on their way...

delete94 · 10-09-2012, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grandpa_spec_F6

What grinds my gear?

5 cars being held up by one up ahead going 80km/h in a 110km/h zone.

Passing lane approaches, car in front going out pulls into left hand land to let people pass AND SPEEDS UP TO 120KM/H!!!

Passing lane ends, no one has passed them, they drop back to 80km/h until the next passing lane.....

Next passing lane... I can't tell you what speed I was doing as I was too busy watching the road, but I'm amost certain it wasn't legal.... nor was that of the other 5 cars in front of them

Other time was a Landcruiser going up a mountain, ONLY straight bit of passing road for AGES and he would have to done at least double the limit to ensure I didn't pass him... rhymes with tankers...

I thought it was only the drivers over here in the West that did that, or, you get some cracker who doesn’t understand the giant sign that says in giant letters “Overtaking Lane: Keep left unless overtaking”, and sits in the right lane, next to someone in the left lane, without overtaking.

I have to say as well, with regards to some of those comments about not having patience and only saving 5 minutes and the like, the fact that some of us want to do, and are perfectly capable of doing, 110 in a 110 zone, doesn’t make us impatient and reckless drivers. I don’t understand why some people seem to make it sound like wanting to overtake is almost akin to being a hoon. The fact is, if you do a lot of country driving, which I do, and it sounds like some others here do as well, then you’ll quickly realise that the exact opposite applies, and the ones that sit at 80 or 90 in a 110 zone are not only selfish, but are perhaps the more reckless drivers (than those of us that just want to do the limit), by virtue of the amount of frustration they create for the drivers caught behind them. And when these same num-nuts speed up at overtaking lanes only to slow back down when the overtaking lane finishes, that just re-enforces our point. And just to clarify, I’m not talking about cars towing caravans, boats, fully loaded trailers or the like. I wouldn’t expect them to be doing the speed limit on open roads, and, for the most part, I’ve found these types of drivers usually pick a speed and generally stick to it, even in overtaking lanes, so you can usually overtake without a problem.

And here's a question, for those drivers who seemingly have all the patience in the world, who don’t care how long it will take to get to their destination, have left early enough to allow themselves plenty of time for the trip and are generally just enjoying the drive. When they’re happily in that queue of traffic travelling at 20k’s under the limit, why is it that they drive right up the back of the car in front? Whilst they’re so relaxed and don't need to overtake, why don’t they leave four or five car lengths between them and the car in front of them, so that if someone wants to overtake, they can safely do so one car at a time?

I’m the first to admit, I often see people doing very stupid and dangerous things on country roads, like overtaking on double lines, over the crest of hills, around bends and even with oncoming traffic where they really just didn’t have a safe amount of room to overtake. But, for the vast majority of us who don’t do these sorts of things, and actually wait till it’s safe to overtake, that can sometimes take a long time, and if I’m making a 400k trip, which is not unusual, the difference between driving at 80kmh and 110kmh makes a big difference, not only in time, but to the whole driving experience.

danmc · 10-09-2012, 07:45 PM

I have to say, driving with my olds just about kills me. They seem to try and hide up the bum of the car in front. Made me realise that people apparently tailgating you are often just terrible drivers.

**GasoLane** · 11-09-2012, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seedywagon

Speed limits are assigned based on an innumerate set of variables, they aren't set 'on a whim' just to **** people off or to defy 'logic'

I dont know how they do things in Vic but here we had a psychologist who worked for the RTA (Dr Soames Job) lowering the speed limit on the Newell Hwy from 110 to 100.

2 years later they worked out that this was dangerous and put it back to 110

Quote:

Originally Posted by seedywagon

The figures just don't lie when it comes to speed, if you don't believe me, get out your calculator and physics textbooks and crunch the numbers yourself. Your roads are designed to be traveled at the posted speed limits,

And according to an NRMA report (released just before they raised it back up to 110) it showed that the number of fatalities on the Newell Highway from 2000-04 (36) remained steady in comparison to the five year period 2005-09 (37). The number of injury crashes fell from 366 to 315 respectively. http://www.mynrma.com.au/about/media...or-110-kmh.htm