Another speeding fine thread

[VSSII]

Originally Posted by GCFordChic

It still exists, even in a case like this, just think about it a little more...
'innocent' until a member of the police force (the branch of government there to enforce the law) exercises their power under statute to detect the speed and make a determination according the the reading of the device (which is also regulated by statute) as to the legality of the speed at which the vehicle is travelling. If under or at posted (or expected in 50 residential zones) 'speed limit' then person has not broken law and will not get fined. If reading confirms vehicle is travelling outside the parameters of the law- 'guilty' and a fine would be issued. If you want to appeal that decision you must go to court and the onus is on you to outline why the fine should not apply in that case.

If EVERY traffic offence was determined by the court, there would either be a 10 year wait, or they would have to have ALOT more courts. For a minor breach of the law it has already been determined that the police can find you guilty and fine you. If it is more serious (ie dangerous driving etc) then you are charged (like in other cases like murder etc) and you will face a court.

Whoa, that was the long-winded way to put it wasnt it!!! lol

Not at all. Some people need it spelled out. I think this should now be cut and pasted to end every future thread on this subject! :

[Belle_Hemmi]

Originally Posted by 85zl

Please note that this advice is from a lot of NSW speeding fine experience, and yes I do win.

LIDAR stands for Laser Indicated Direction And Range.

Lidar is a laser based "range finder" direction is not shown, range is. So technically they don't do what they are called.

Lidars are generally Idiot proof, however there is an Australian Standard (yes you can buy this from Standards Australia, there are two parts) that ALL Australian police are signatories to IE will abide by. This will give you some clues how to get around them.

I personally have a very big DOUBT as to the officers accuracy with one of these, basically they have to 'hit' the number plate at 100-600m at speed, yes the cops do have shooting practice but not at MOVING targets at speed.

If you take it to court look at/do the following;
attack the man not the machine.
get a map of the area, not the street directory, go to the dept of lands and get an Orthophoto map, these are massive about 1200mm x 1000mm and I think about $50. Its an aerial photo with contours overlaid on it. It seems to give you some points with the magistrate.

Do your research you cannot have enough

Take lots of pics, an SL/R with interchangeable lenses is the best, you can alter the 'depth' in the pics.

With all of these you can then attack the man.
Speed by definition is distance/time=km/h
60km/h = 16.66667 m/second
84km/h = 23.33333 m/sec

Ask the copper to estimate 20m or any other distance you like, be aware the longer the distance the greater the inaccuracy but not out of the court room. Take a big tape measure.

Ask the copper to estimate time, about 20 seconds does the trick, while outside influences are distracting him, like in the real world.
Any error starts to open up your defense.

The copper is to assess the validity of the lidar reading, before pulling you over, in case of error. Therefore you have proved the operator cannot tell distance and time which in turn shows the copper cannot asses speed.

Use the map;
ask the copper where he first saw you, there is an observation period of three (3) seconds
ask the copper where he started and stopped 'painting' you
again his indicated points on the map should show something very different to his reports

Me clocked speed 120km/h+ in court indicated speed of 24km/h in the other direction.
that copper was transfered and demoted. His partner, yes there was two of them, gave a conflicting view, the Judge stated in court, he had grave doubts about the evidence given.

Was I doing 120km/h, well thats is not going to be said here.

I hope that this is of help.

It is also possible to get off parking, no left turn, red lights etc. all with a bit of research.

I went through a similar inncedent and paid $3500.00 on a good lawyer and never saw the court room due to him knowing the judge very well. Its not what you its who you know and a little reseach will go along way.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by spotlogo

I think you can request too see the speed recorded after they pull you over I have don that before in nsw not sure i applies in qld

And they'll show you but, who's to say that its YOUR speed that is on the gun?

Originally Posted by Belle_Hemmi

I went through a similar inncedent and paid $3500.00 on a good lawyer and never saw the court room due to him knowing the judge very well. Its not what you its who you know and a little reseach will go along way.

Most people could beat a fine if they wanted to pay this much every time they got booked. That was my point earlier, it was'nt worth my time and the cost to fight a $350 fine.

[Belle_Hemmi]

I was coming to a toll gate. We you approch a toll gate it goes from 100 to 82 to 60. i was caught doing 101 in a 60 zone. Long story short. more then 40klms over in automatic loss of license for 6 months i couldn't afford that. i wasn't doing 100 in a 60 zone on a suburbin street.

[GCFordChic]

Originally Posted by Belle_Hemmi

I went through a similar inncedent and paid $3500.00 on a good lawyer and never saw the court room due to him knowing the judge very well. Its not what you its who you know and a little reseach will go along way.

Hopefully i interpreted this the wrong way because i would hate to think you classify a 'good lawyer' as one who was corrupt and able to convince a judge out of court, on the basis of 'knowing the judge very well' to find you not guilty, when you obviously saw the posted speed signs in coming up to the toll (because you are able to recall them now) but you chose to ignore them and continue doing 101 in a 60 zone... I understand you wouldnt want to lose your licence, but this is definately a case of 'well you knew the law, you continued on to break it anyway, you should suffer the consequences...'

Its great for you that you 'beat the system' and i dont want you to think im being a b*tch or in any way getting all high and mighty, but hopefully you will tell me that it was just you that didnt have to appear in court for some reason, and there was a fair legal process... Otherwise once again my faith in justice and my chosen profession is left a little dented...

Jennifer

[MO]

Hate to say it but its dented.

[Belle_Hemmi]

It was had alot to do with the court stuffing up and not handing out all the information my lawyer requested. My lawyer asked for the information and then be given a later court date. it judge said that it was his mistake that my lawyer didn't receive all the information. so the judge told my lawyer that he would give me 99 in a 60 zone so i didnlt lose my license. Thats how the story went.

[Belle_Hemmi]

And yes im more aware of what im done on the road now

[GCFordChic]

Ah ok, that makes a little more sense and doesnt sound nearly as bad as what i had assumed from reading the other post.

Not so 'dented' after all...

[85zl]

Originally Posted by VSSII

Don't forget LIDAR units which it seems are being mentioned here check your speed about 200 times a second. And don't display any reading until at least 80 or so checks have been made. A GPS can be out by as much as 20KPH. EG, SPEED = DISTANCE / TIME. If the GPS takes a reading every few seconds (as opposed to a LIDAR at about 200 times a second) the formula can be out considerably! Spend a bit of time around your local Courts and it's amazing what you can learn! The targets may be moving but they are moving toward the policeman. In effect getting larger as then approach.

sorry I've been hiding.

GPS is accurate enough and relies on MILITARY satellites, read much better than standard stuff.

The target object, you, can be moving either toward or away from the copper.

[85zl]

Originally Posted by David See

In addition, what about your points...do you get them back as well?

I heard it is impossible to get them back.

If you didn't get found guilty then your points aren't lost. You only loose them when you are found guilty, or pay the fine.

[85zl]

Originally Posted by David See

Very interesting and thank you so much for the input. Us "plebs" are rarely "taught" how to defend ourselves properly as we just assume there are never any tools to help us: The cops must always be "right", because, let's face it, they're "cops".

I would request a couple of things:

(1) Would you please elaborate on the details of using the map

(2) I would like to know how to get off a fine (in my case an illegal right hand turn - your closing line pricked my ears up) if you have already admitted you did it to the cop who stopped you and sent away the payment for processing. Payment means you have accepted the guilt I guess?

Thanks again for your input and taking the time to add some amazing value to this thread.

As for 'plebs', please don't think I'm some kind of toffee nosed ****er, I work for myself driving a truck. Just lots of experience.

(1) Use the map by getting the copper to indicate on the map where he first saw you, first started 'painting' you, stopped 'painting' you and the time intervals. Using your map with a different scale,( the coppers use a photocopy out of the street directory ), so if they are 'schooled' on their map, it throws them.

(2) sorry but if you have admitted that you did it/ payed the fine your stuffed.

All states have a 'statute of limitations' ,in NSW 12 months, if the summons is not issued before that date, then the fine is 'stale'.

I did see a comment about taking fines to court. DO IT.

Why? because if the government decides it is all to hard they will give up.

[GT-E]

85zl,
Again you are giving out correct info.
Anyone who think that we should just cop the fine and get on with life, should just bury their head in the sand and while bent over take it up the but from the government.
If they think we can be screwed, the will screw you.

Everyone should take every fine to court.
Make a written request for all the maintenance logs and certifications of the booking officer. This will usually take many months.
When you are notified by the court of your hearing date, wait until the day before and call up the court and tell them you have not been provided with the information to defend yourself.
You can keep asking for detailed info from the RTA and police, which they will either delay or just not give you. On the second court date, turn up and provide written evidence that you have requested the info, but not received it. This will give you an automatic get out of jail card, as magistrates cannot convict you if you have not been provided evidence to use in your defence under to FOI.
This has worked for me once before.
Oh and in NSW you will get your points back if you win.
Take every speeding fine to court, even if you turn up and say you have no defence, you will only have to pay $45 more, and you have used up heaps of police/court/government resources, its you right so do it.
The Government will get the message.